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Suppose I make it easy for all the newbies and budget folks? - Page 16

post #451 of 1046
9/8/07 at 1:47pm
Here's some small project ideas for non-core contributors:

* Tell you what would be handy, is for someone to code an opensource utility that takes before/after snapshots of registry, file system and fs plugins to detect brick-level changes in text files, xml files and ini files. This can be done in any language, and can output a parsable stream to stdout for further processing.

* An app that goes full screen black with a slowly moving 1x1 white pixel - for screen testing.

* A set of iconic alpha-PNG pictures to depict different sound setups. These would be multiple series: physical connections (leads/sockets), number of speakers, speaker configuration (for 8 channels, there are 2 ways to position them), stereo angle (the front 2 speakers can be set at different angles).

* A mkv/vorbis file for testing stereo sound, quad, 5.1 7.1 and mono

* A list of all resolutions ever -leave out overscan variants and list the variants algorithm separately and I'll expand the list programmatically
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post #452 of 1046
9/8/07 at 1:55pm
greeni:

1) ok this should be possible (in WINNT.SIF) - if anyone knows what to set let me know, otherwise i'll research it.

2) sure thing. in the root? how about \\bluepill.flag ? (can be 0 byte)

3) well how about the data partition ( D: ) be formatted as FAT32. Linux/xp/vista could all read/write to the config file on the data drive.

4) i propose we use xml 1.1 - even ini files pose problems with line termination. then we have extensible namespaces for new a weirder config sections.
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post #453 of 1046
9/8/07 at 2:26pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by binary64 View Post

greeni:
3) well how about the data partition ( D: ) be formatted as FAT32. Linux/xp/vista could all read/write to the config file on the data drive.

With a file size limit of 4GB, fat32 would be unsuitable for video data.
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post #454 of 1046
9/8/07 at 2:45pm
grittree: thanks! ok forget fat32. Substitute fat32 with ntfs v5 then. Also thanks for your wiki edit.
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post #455 of 1046
9/8/07 at 5:09pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph Clark View Post

I see where you're going with that idea. There might still be issues with wiping the hard drive clean and starting over with the OS install, media card reader and Firewire drivers, etc. Certainly, an individual would be hard pressed to find the parts of such a system cheaper if he/she bought them separately.

In the 90's you could buy systems from Gateway that had no software installed, but of course it would be included on disks. Maybe that option is still available from the big boys.

Not to belabor that Dell/LG review too much, but there's something else I should have expanded on in my last post.

If Ed Bott's review is to be believed, regardless of whatever else that system can or cannot do, the particular combination of hardware and software that Dell chose for that system actually produces good dual-format playback. Apparently this is no small feat unto itself and, frankly, I am very impressed.

Even more significantly to me, it produces good playback using the upcoming LG dual-format drive coupled with an 8600GT.

And most significantly of all, Bott set the whole thing up in about an hour.

So right there for all to see is a system that is certainly going to work with that new LG drive. There will be no throwing away hardware that might not be compatible, no meltdown, and no HD at 6 frames per second, even while using a liquid-nitrogen cooled cpu and video card.
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post #456 of 1046
9/8/07 at 6:01pm
Thread Starter 
Binary64

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_common_resolutions

Is this enough or do you need it plain text or something?

Troy
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post #457 of 1046
9/8/07 at 8:27pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by pcCinema View Post

Binary64

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_common_resolutions

Is this enough or do you need it plain text or something?

Troy

There it is, right there in the chart. How in the world did we get this far without considering the Amiga 640x400 resolution? I think I spent more time in Deluxe Paint on the Amiga than I have in Photoshop on the Mac and PC. Now there was an OS!!! It happily multi-tasked with 256KB of RAM in 1985, and it smoked along at over 7 mhz. If Commodore hadn't been such a monumentally (some say criminally) inept company, both the PC and the Mac might be distant memories. OK, I know that wouldn't have happened, but we'd be so much further along in the world of digital video today if we'd built on the original Amiga design, rather than the PC and Mac kludges.

Sorry, didn't mean to get started, but if you guys think Mac people are lunatics, you haven't heard of Amiga die-hards. To this day, there's an emulation project that allows Amiga users to run their software on PC's - Amiga Forever. I have it on a system, for nostalgic reasons. It still brings a tear to my eye when I fire it up.

Backing out of memory lane. Sorry for the detour.
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post #458 of 1046
9/8/07 at 8:32pm
Thread Starter 
Ah you're all sentimental about Amiga's, that's funny. That's from back when computers actually knew how to do video/TV natively.


Binary64

Here are some links to videos, static images, hd-dvd images, and test pattern generator software I use to calibrate and converge my crt projectors. Maybe some of these can be of use if nobody steps up to create exactly what you wanted with that 1 pixel thing, and some of this should certainly be included in our distributions so users can calibrate their displays and various pc output levels properly.

Test pattern generator programs:
http://www.mooneyass.com/testpatterns/

The phillips test pattern generator there lets you create patterns, not just run the program, it may be able to make what you seek but I'm not sure.
Nokia Monitor Test (also on that site) is a good basic test program that's simpler for end users to actually use for all around calibration, you've probably seen and used this one before.
All these are freeware so we can distribute and use them at will.
I haven't tried some of those others.

Here are some videos used to check for 1:1 pixel mapping:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/archi.../t-641143.html

And then there's more test programs here:
http://www.softpedia.com/get/Tweak/Video-Tweak

And here's some that play as a hd-dvd:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=707769

There are a lot more like this floating around out there already but I can't find the links to them, I would have to do a little searching.

Troy
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post #459 of 1046
9/8/07 at 8:40pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Herve View Post

In the 90's you could buy systems from Gateway that had no software installed, but of course it would be included on disks. Maybe that option is still available from the big boys.

Not to belabor that Dell/LG review too much, but there's something else I should have expanded on in my last post.

If Ed Bott's review is to be believed, regardless of whatever else that system can or cannot do, the particular combination of hardware and software that Dell chose for that system actually produces good dual-format playback. Apparently this is no small feat unto itself and, frankly, I am very impressed.

Even more significantly to me, it produces good playback using the upcoming LG dual-format drive coupled with an 8600GT.

And most significantly of all, Bott set the whole thing up in about an hour.

So right there for all to see is a system that is certainly going to work with that new LG drive. There will be no throwing away hardware that might not be compatible, no meltdown, and no HD at 6 frames per second, even while using a liquid-nitrogen cooled cpu and video card.

Sure he got it working for both formats in about an hour, but was it playing as well as a standalone without glitches and how much spyware and junk was still on the system?
It's not hard to get both formats to play, the hard part is play perfectly.

Dell's are fine but you seriously have to blow the OS away and start fresh, which you're not going to accomplish in about an hour. Or an entire day for that matter.

Troy
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post #460 of 1046
9/8/07 at 8:42pm
For those interested in the new LG drive, I just noticed this:

"The good folks at LG USA have sent me a pair of their new second-generation Super Blue Multi Drives drives, which handle both Blu-ray and HD DVD formats. The GGC-H20L ($399) reads both formats and has standard CD/DVD writing capabilities; the GGW-H20L ($499) can write to Blu-ray media as well. Both drives should be available for retail sale beginning in September."


from here:
http://blogs.zdnet.com/Bott/?p=292
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post #461 of 1046
9/8/07 at 8:45pm
Thread Starter 
Sweet! Thank you Herve

Lets hope they're on schedule.

Troy
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post #462 of 1046
9/8/07 at 8:49pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by pcCinema View Post

Ah you're all sentimental about Amiga's, that's funny. That's from back when computers actually knew how to do video/TV natively.

Troy

Yeah, the Amiga's speed was, I think, 7.18 mhz, rather than the Mac's 8 mhz on the same CPU, because it was a multiple of the standard NTSC video resolution. I was able to genlock Amiga graphics over standard video signals with a cheap overlay device, while the Mac faithful were oohing and aahing over a megabuck genlock device that would allow the Mac to do less than my Amiga 2000 was doing.
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post #463 of 1046
9/8/07 at 8:50pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Herve View Post

For those interested in the new LG drive, I just noticed this:

"The good folks at LG USA have sent me a pair of their new second-generation Super Blue Multi Drives drives, which handle both Blu-ray and HD DVD formats. The GGC-H20L ($399) reads both formats and has standard CD/DVD writing capabilities; the GGW-H20L ($499) can write to Blu-ray media as well. Both drives should be available for retail sale beginning in September."


from here:
http://blogs.zdnet.com/Bott/?p=292

My debit card is ready.
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post #464 of 1046
9/8/07 at 8:55pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by pcCinema View Post

Here are some links to videos, static images, hd-dvd images, and test pattern generator software I use to calibrate and converge my crt projectors. Maybe some of these can be of use if nobody steps up to create exactly what you wanted with that 1 pixel thing, and some of this should certainly be included in our distributions so users can calibrate their displays and various pc output levels properly.

Are we looking at outputting the video card's signal at studio levels (16-235) vs. PC levels (0-255, but expanded from 16-235)? I think many people will have their displays set for 16-235, for use with Blu-ray players, satellite receivers, etc.
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post #465 of 1046
9/8/07 at 9:47pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph Clark View Post

Are we looking at outputting the video card's signal at studio levels (16-235) vs. PC levels (0-255, but expanded from 16-235)? I think many people will have their displays set for 16-235, for use with Blu-ray players, satellite receivers, etc.

Yes
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post #466 of 1046
9/8/07 at 10:04pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by pcCinema View Post

Yes

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post #467 of 1046
9/8/07 at 11:20pm
Looking at the bluepill MeediOS Wiki, I note Adobe Acrobat Reader is being used. Could I suggest FoxIt Reader? It's smaller, it's free and it's about a zillion times faster than Adobe's own Acrobat Reader. (Actually, it's 10 zillion times faster than Adobe. I did the benchmark.)

Here it is.
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post #468 of 1046
9/8/07 at 11:55pm
Troy, I have to chime in once again...

The way it's looking to me, we are getting bogged down with steps, that are probably 20-30 in the overall scheme of things. Sorry, had to say it. We still need to go through steps 1-20 before we start worrying about steps in the queue after that.

Step 1 - Define the overall goals of the final HTPC configuration. - Have we done this yet?

Step 2 - Gather a list of potential list of motherboards that fit the goals in step 1. Since this project does not have the resources the buy and test each of those motherboards, you have to collect the list and publish it here so that people can chime in with their experiences on those motherboards. This needs to be done before the project considers actually purchasing one.

Step 3 - Finalize a CPU and RAM configuration keeping the golas in step 1 and the motherboard in step 2 in mind, with the lowest energy consuption processor that fits the bill, without compromising the required performance.

Step 4 - Finalize a video card and audio card/interface/onboard spec based on steps 1,2,3.

Step 5 - Based on the above configurations, find optimal components to cool and silence them.

Step 6 - Finalize the list of supported peripherals like an optical drive(s), card reader, VFD, remote, keyboard, mouce etc.

Once we get all this done, start working on the software side, including O/S, drivers, add ons, tweaks, hacks, etc etc.

Then start testing. And test, test, test and test some more. It has to be rock solid and perform all of the goals listed in step 1.

Now you have a stable configuration that performs all of the required goals. Now, start worrying about 1 touch scripting and distribution.

Again, am I off base here?
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post #469 of 1046
9/9/07 at 12:15am
Cooling is an issue I've been concerned about, too. My Asus EN8600 GT with passive cooling runs fine in my roomy case with plenty of fans (but in the basement, where noise is not a problem). It might work fine in Troy's homemade case, too, but maybe not so well in a cramped case. If mATX is still the direction you're going, might I suggest a close look at the Antec NSK 2400. It gets good reviews and is supposed to be very quiet. It was the case I almost bought for my HTPC build before I saw this thread. It's $99 at Newegg and it comes with a power supply. If full size ATX is still on the table, that case won't work.
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post #470 of 1046
9/9/07 at 4:19am
I would love to see some case recommendations, optional of course. I would like to have a mATX case, but with a Full-Sized PSU. This way, I can fit a silent PSU.

I'll look into FoxIt Reader, thanks for the suggestion.
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post #471 of 1046
9/9/07 at 6:52am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by kapone View Post

Troy, I have to chime in once again...

The way it's looking to me, we are getting bogged down with steps, that are probably 20-30 in the overall scheme of things. Sorry, had to say it. We still need to go through steps 1-20 before we start worrying about steps in the queue after that.

Step 1 - Define the overall goals of the final HTPC configuration. - Have we done this yet?

Step 2 - Gather a list of potential list of motherboards that fit the goals in step 1. Since this project does not have the resources the buy and test each of those motherboards, you have to collect the list and publish it here so that people can chime in with their experiences on those motherboards. This needs to be done before the project considers actually purchasing one.

Step 3 - Finalize a CPU and RAM configuration keeping the golas in step 1 and the motherboard in step 2 in mind, with the lowest energy consuption processor that fits the bill, without compromising the required performance.

Step 4 - Finalize a video card and audio card/interface/onboard spec based on steps 1,2,3.

Step 5 - Based on the above configurations, find optimal components to cool and silence them.

Step 6 - Finalize the list of supported peripherals like an optical drive(s), card reader, VFD, remote, keyboard, mouce etc.

Once we get all this done, start working on the software side, including O/S, drivers, add ons, tweaks, hacks, etc etc.

Then start testing. And test, test, test and test some more. It has to be rock solid and perform all of the goals listed in step 1.

Now you have a stable configuration that performs all of the required goals. Now, start worrying about 1 touch scripting and distribution.

Again, am I off base here?

No, you're not off base. I've asked several times and given a last last chance for help on choosing components and gotten nothing more out of anyone. Soooo, I'm choosing the components on my own based on suggestions we have gone over many many pages ago... I'm buying everything this weekend.

There's not enough money from donations to buy a lot of the stuff, so I'm recycling what I already have in my own pc's as much as possible. It's not old stuff, so we're ok there. (except the VFD) I should look for something more common but it's not covered in the budget. Keep in mind we received two donations since I opened donations back up for HD optical drives and that's all. I spent more than what came in for the 360 hd-dvd I bought used off ebay. We are really having to skimp and save here...

Case we definitely can't afford but these parts should really fit in just about anything. I will give a few case options for ones that can be purchased now and are common even though I'm using my own and whoever follows with their own prototypes will surely be choosing their own cases too and can chip in what worked for them.

Ram, keyboard, mouse, hdd, dvd-rw, Hd-dvd drive, case, processor, cooler, fan, microsoft remote, all selected and either on the way or already here in my hands. I'll put out the specifics before assembly.

The only things left to choose and order are: Motherboard, tuners, power supply, and video card. We already know the video card will be a 8600gt so I just have to select a brand, probably get the rest selected and purchased today. I don't really need more help on anything but motherboard maybe.

I've just been trying to help answer binary64's and others questions in between looking up and ordering the rest of the parts. It's the weekend so none of the parts will be on the way until monday regardless, so later today the rest of the system parts need to be ordered.

step 1: done
step 2: I can do this on my own, people stopped helping
step 3: done
step 4: done
step 5: done no money to get fancy here... It will be stock cpu cooler and a 120mm fan.
step 6: done

Tuner I still hope to get a hdhomerun. That and the added unexpected expense of the 360 hd-dvd are why I have to skimp so much on the rest of the budget. I'm trying to fit in some good stuff where it counts most. I also have to fit in a cheaper tuner, not everyone can swing or even needs a hdhomerun but many folks do since it's the only thing that does what it does with QAM in MCE and VMC. I do have comcast cable here so it will be fully utilized in the testing. And more testing, and testing, and testing...

Troy
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post #472 of 1046
9/9/07 at 7:47am
Thread Starter 
Oh and yes it's still micro ATX. We are just going to use the 7.1 off the motherboard, and all it's other integrated stuff, so no need to select a soundcard for this system. A separate higher end card would have been in a high end system but we're not doing one.

I think everyone is stumped on the micro atx board, which is probably why people stopped looking into them.

Troy
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post #473 of 1046
9/9/07 at 2:47pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by pcCinema View Post

What titles on Hd-dvd and blueray are the toughest and or highest quality to test with? Transformers? Got any links to a list?

Full widescreen 1.85:1 MPEG-4 AVC Blu-Ray titles with high bitrates are the hardest to play without stutter.
Vertical Limit is the worst I have found running at 26 - 36Mb/s most of the time.
HD-DVD is pretty standardised and fairly easy on the CPU in comparison.

I'm using a Pioneer 202 Blu-ray drive and an xbox 360 HD-DVD addon playing on a c2d e4300 at 1.8Ghz based machine.
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post #474 of 1046
9/9/07 at 2:57pm
@ sarah99 It is very good to see you in this thread.

@ Troy: How do you like this micro board?

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16813128063

cheers
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post #475 of 1046
9/9/07 at 3:55pm
apologies if already covered: but i have something to add for your prototype to watch out for... WOL. it's a nasty headache without the right kit. i'm hoping you can make this rig be able to wake up from a WOL packet whilst sleep/standby/hibernate/shutdown/anySstate.. and never wake up strangely in the middle of the night
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post #476 of 1046
9/9/07 at 3:56pm
If we're not going to go the separate audio card route, I'd prefer to see a mobo that has digital audio passthrough via spdif/optical. Mulit-channel analog off a mobo can be pretty noisy. Also, budget folks might not have multi-channel audio inputs on their AVR's.
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post #477 of 1046
9/9/07 at 3:58pm
"BTW, we pay quite a bit for Vista or Windows logo certification."

I've passed software through XP logo testing before. It's pretty much self-certification (with automated testing, and perhaps the occasional spot checks). Total cost.. $400 a year for the VeriSign Authenticode certificate.
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post #478 of 1046
9/9/07 at 4:01pm
"If we're not going to go the separate audio card route, I'd prefer to see a mobo that has digital audio passthrough via spdif/optical. Mulit-channel analog off a mobo can be pretty noisy. Also, budget folks might not have multi-channel audio inputs on their AVR's."

The opposite here, I bought a very cheap ($60) 5.1 surround system, and for that price, it's all analogue. It has 6 RCA connections into the sub which has an amp built in. The satelite speakers are (virtually-)hardwired into the sub. My HTPC's on-board 7.1 Realtek HD is ok.. i've had a lot worse integrated. The point of my story is: I would prefer both - pure-digital and analogue.
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post #479 of 1046
9/9/07 at 4:02pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by videolover View Post

@ sarah99 It is very good to see you in this thread.

@ Troy: How do you like this micro board?

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16813128063

cheers

Lots of nice features on this board, including eSATA. Kinda light on the SATA ports, but I think for a mATX it's enough. I'd only use two anyway.
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post #480 of 1046
9/9/07 at 4:05pm
videolover, I think the problem with the GA-G33M-S2H is it doesn't allow much o'clocking with fsb800 chips like e4400 & e2160 using normal memory. It would be great with a e6850.

This is based on renethx analysis in the C2D mobo thread.
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