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Digital Cable Distribution

post #1 of 49
Thread Starter 
I'm not sure if this is the right area to post this, but this is what I'm looking to do:

I have digital cable with 1 cable box. I have 4 televisions in various places in the house, I can get basic cable on all of the tv's, and digital only at the tv with the box. I also have cable internet access. I would like to be able to get digital cable content on all of the tv's - and I don't want to rent a box for each tv. At this time, it's very unlikely that I'd need to view different digital cable channels on more than 1 tv at a time, but I would like to be able to view a basic cable channel on tv#1 while a digital cable channel is being viewed on tv#2 (i.e. not all tv's tuned to the same thing, understanding that only 1 digital channel can be tuned to at any time).

What I "think" I need to do is:
Split my incoming cable 3 ways (cable modem, cable box, Channel Plus 3025)
Move my digital cable box to where my "coax distribution area" is (mainly for convenience)
Install a low pass filter on the input of the Channel Plus 3025 (or other RF modulator)
Install some IR targets and an emitter
Make sure that any splitters that I use downstream of the CP 3025 are IR passing

I haven't done this before, and I'm sure that several people on the forum probably have - Is my plan a good plan, or am I way off base? Is there a better way to do this for about the same amount of money?

By the way - I haven't purchased the Channel Plus 3025 - if there is a better way (that isn't much more money), please let me know!

Thank you!
post #2 of 49
That's pretty much the way to do it. Make sure you install that LPF-600 on the input to the CP 3025 and set the CP 3025 to a channel in the mid-80s or above. I do the same thing, not with the 3025 though, to create 4 channels in my house.
post #3 of 49
Thread Starter 
Thanks for the response. I needed some reinforcement.

Having never done this, I didn't want to purchase equipment and get everything set up and find out that it doesn't work - due to not doing enough planning and understanding the equipment (just because I "think" something works a certain way doesn't mean that it works that way.)
post #4 of 49
If I understand what you are doing correctly, then you will be foregoing having 'digital cable' at any TV. By moving the box away from any TV, your options are to insert the currently tuned cable channel from the box into your analog feeds or do component distribution. If you use the composite output of your box to modulate into your analog cable feeds, you are reducing your digital channels to analog grade and you won't get any HD channels to spit out the composite feed. So, I'm not sure what you are doing, is really what you want to do.
post #5 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by robertmee View Post

If I understand what you are doing correctly, then you will be foregoing having 'digital cable' at any TV. By moving the box away from any TV, your options are to insert the currently tuned cable channel from the box into your analog feeds or do component distribution. If you use the composite output of your box to modulate into your analog cable feeds, you are reducing your digital channels to analog grade and you won't get any HD channels to spit out the composite feed. So, I'm not sure what you are doing, is really what you want to do.

Which he may be doing anyway if he uses the RF or composite or S-Video outputs on the box. He wants to be able to watch that box at any TV set in the house, and short of having a box at every TV set or moving his 1 box around to various TVs, modulating the output and combining it back into his distribution system is the best solution. At any set in the house, all he has to do is tune the TV to channel XX, and there is the digital box. Since that 3025 has 3 inputs, he can plug 2 more sources into it for the same purpose.

Why have 4 DVD players when you can just put in a DVD into a player and watch it wherever you want? Sure, you're going to have a higher-end player at the main TV set, but you can just have 1 $40 player for the rest of the TVs.
post #6 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by egnlsn View Post

Which he may be doing anyway if he uses the RF or composite or S-Video outputs on the box. He wants to be able to watch that box at any TV set in the house, and short of having a box at every TV set or moving his 1 box around to various TVs, modulating the output and combining it back into his distribution system is the best solution. At any set in the house, all he has to do is tune the TV to channel XX, and there is the digital box. Since that 3025 has 3 inputs, he can plug 2 more sources into it for the same purpose.

Why have 4 DVD players when you can just put in a DVD into a player and watch it wherever you want? Sure, you're going to have a higher-end player at the main TV set, but you can just have 1 $40 player for the rest of the TVs.

The reason why is that you are no longer viewing 480p DVDs or 720p/1080i HD at any of your TVs. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for distribution. I do it in my house, but I do it right. I use an Extron Matrix Switcher to distribute upto 1080p to all my TVs. I can watch Digital cable including HD at any TV. I have a Sony 777 400 disc changer that I can view any DVD at any location. Your $40 solution requires that you walk down to the basement everytime you want to switch a DVD. I can assure you that becomes tedious quickly.

Back in the day, RF distribution was the way to go. I have 7 channels modulated in my own home, but only for surveillance cameras. Anything where PQ is critical, I no longer recommend modulated solutions. That time has unfortunately passed.
post #7 of 49
Thread Starter 
Thank you for the replies and making me aware of other methods that would result in higher quality output. I don't currently have a need for HD distribution. My system and my needs are pretty modest compared to most users of this site. I do hope to improve my system in the coming years, but with a new family, I'll have to make do with RF modulation for a few years.

Thanks again!
post #8 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by os1kne View Post

Thank you for the replies and making me aware of other methods that would result in higher quality output. I don't currently have a need for HD distribution. My system and my needs are pretty modest compared to most users of this site. I do hope to improve my system in the coming years, but with a new family, I'll have to make do with RF modulation for a few years.

Thanks again!

No problem....I wasn't trying to dismiss your solution, just making you aware of its limitations. I started with modulation myself about 6 years ago, but have been migrating to HD distribution since. If you have a modest backbone of wiring in your home, it's actually not that difficult nor expensive. When I first built the home 6 years ago, I did the standard 2 Cat5e and 2 RG6 everywhere. While not optimum, it's still sufficient for HD distribution. By using a central phone base with cordless handsets, I free'd up all the cat5e jacks in every room. By going wired and wireless on my network, most other rooms have the 2nd cat5e available too. So, I bought an Extron 100/200 Matrix Switch on Ebay which does 8x8 video distribution, plus digital and analog distribution. That cost me $200. I've then been using the CELabs Cat5 baluns which transmits HD video, digital and analog audio and IR over 2 cat5 cables (you can do HD video + Digital audio over 1). These run about $180 per TV. So, for just a little more than an RF setup (Amp + splitters + Modulators) I have a solution that lets any TV view any Source simultaneously.
post #9 of 49
robert - noob here. your pics look like you use coax for distribution? I built by house and ran RG-6 and up to five cat5e to each room. Finally getting ready to tie it all together and I like your setup. where do you get your coax connectors, etc? right now using home depot junk... advice? Also what are your thoughts on this for locations where I want video but didn't run coax?
post #10 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by robertmee View Post

I did the standard 2 Cat5e and 2 RG6 everywhere.

I wish that were standard with developers and electricians. I'm lucky to find a developer who will do anything more than 1+1. Drives me insane.
post #11 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by robertmee View Post

Your $40 solution requires that you walk down to the basement everytime you want to switch a DVD.

Why does the VCR/DVD player have to be in the basement? With 2 RG 6s at each outlet, locate it anywhere and utilize the 2nd coax to send it back to the distribution center.

While it definitely is true that the picture quality will not be as good as with component distribution, finances or construction of the home may limit many people to just using what is already there. There are also people who subscribe to an HD package even though they may not even have an HD set -- they find it worth the extra few bucks a month just to get the additional programming.
post #12 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by sprangdog View Post

robert - noob here. your pics look like you use coax for distribution? I built by house and ran RG-6 and up to five cat5e to each room. Finally getting ready to tie it all together and I like your setup. where do you get your coax connectors, etc? right now using home depot junk... advice? Also what are your thoughts on this for locations where I want video but didn't run coax?

All my RF distribution terminations are Leviton.

As mentioned earlier, I no longer use the RF distribution for video other than to a few old analog TVs (Deck, Excercise Room, kid's room) and use the UTP method similar to what your link to Extron shows. I've been using the CELabs Cat5RX/TX units with very good success. They use 2 Cat5es per drop if you want video, audio L/R, digital audio and IR, but you can send Video and digital audio over one cat5 with a little rewiring. Extron also makes very good units, but they are tad bit pricier than the CeLabs stuff. I do use Extron for my component/audio matrix switching, but you can find professional grade 100/200's and Crosspoints on ebay for around $200 to $300 (these units were upwards of 10K new).
post #13 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by egnlsn View Post

Why does the VCR/DVD player have to be in the basement? With 2 RG 6s at each outlet, locate it anywhere and utilize the 2nd coax to send it back to the distribution center.

The basement was an extreme example, but regardless of where you put it, it will always be inconvenient for at least one or two rooms. Most people don't have single story houses with the LR, family room, and bedrooms all nearby.

Quote:


While it definitely is true that the picture quality will not be as good as with component distribution, finances or construction of the home may limit many people to just using what is already there. There are also people who subscribe to an HD package even though they may not even have an HD set -- they find it worth the extra few bucks a month just to get the additional programming.

I agree, but many people who find their way to this board usually have at least a cat5 or two to each room, and I'd rather go the balun route vs RF when PQ is a factor (which it almost always is). Granted, the BEST solution is 5 RG6's to each room for no balun use, distributing HD and audio in its purest analog form, but almost noone who didn't plan it to begin with, has that kind of architecture to work with.
post #14 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by robertmee View Post

All my RF distribution terminations are Leviton.

As mentioned earlier, I no longer use the RF distribution for video other than to a few old analog TVs (Deck, Excercise Room, kid's room) and use the UTP method similar to what your link to Extron shows. I've been using the CELabs Cat5RX/TX units with very good success. They use 2 Cat5es per drop if you want video, audio L/R, digital audio and IR, but you can send Video and digital audio over one cat5 with a little rewiring. Extron also makes very good units, but they are tad bit pricier than the CeLabs stuff. I do use Extron for my component/audio matrix switching, but you can find professional grade 100/200's and Crosspoints on ebay for around $200 to $300 (these units were upwards of 10K new).

thanks. guess I have some self-education to do, This may sound dumb but I didn't realize that you can't run an HD digital signal thru coax somehow, is that the deal? all that coax in your setup is for RF distribution only to older tv's and surveillance, your a/v distribution is thru utp then. I get it now. Now I wish I ran more than two utp's to each location (use these for home network, phone, etc. Guess I can always go wireless for my networking to free up my utp runs.)

One more question, if I use OTA antenna for tv programming, should I split/boost the signal and pour it into my existing coax backbone or use a switching device (is that what a modulator does?) sorry I think I know the concepts here, but not the terminology... can you point me to any good resources out there, other than avs forums?
post #15 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by sprangdog View Post

thanks. guess I have some self-education to do, This may sound dumb but I didn't realize that you can't run an HD digital signal thru coax somehow, is that the deal? all that coax in your setup is for RF distribution only to older tv's and surveillance, your a/v distribution is thru utp then. I get it now. Now I wish I ran more than two utp's to each location (use these for home network, phone, etc. Guess I can always go wireless for my networking to free up my utp runs.)

One more question, if I use OTA antenna for tv programming, should I split/boost the signal and pour it into my existing coax backbone or use a switching device (is that what a modulator does?) sorry I think I know the concepts here, but not the terminology... can you point me to any good resources out there, other than avs forums?

Unfortunately, there is no consumer grade equipment to run HD via a single coax. Yes, it comes from your cable provider that way and the STB's decode the compressed digital stream, so RG6 has the bandwidth to do it. However, the equipment is prohibitively expensive and normally used by broadcasters.

I didn't really follow your 2nd question. If you sole source is OTA, then you'll want to probably use a distribution amplifier like a Channel Plus 550 to send it around to each of your drops. If you want to add modulated channels to that, get a low pass filter that knocks out everything above ch 80, and inject your modulated channels into channels 85+. Even though you may see snow on anything above a certain channel #, there's enough interference in there to warrant using a filter.
post #16 of 49
Just to point out the obvious - w/ a family using a single cable box for distro you need to keep in mind you'll all be watching the same channel. Granted, you can route "boxless" cable direct to the TV's and get basic cable on the "B" antenna but the cable companies know this too and they put the channels everyone wants on the higher freq chans. My wife and I have completely different viewing preferences, no way we'd survive without multiple boxes.
post #17 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by robertmee View Post

Unfortunately, there is no consumer grade equipment to run HD via a single coax. Yes, it comes from your cable provider that way and the STB's decode the compressed digital stream, so RG6 has the bandwidth to do it. However, the equipment is prohibitively expensive and normally used by broadcasters.

I didn't really follow your 2nd question. If you sole source is OTA, then you'll want to probably use a distribution amplifier like a Channel Plus 550 to send it around to each of your drops. If you want to add modulated channels to that, get a low pass filter that knocks out everything above ch 80, and inject your modulated channels into channels 85+. Even though you may see snow on anything above a certain channel #, there's enough interference in there to warrant using a filter.

ok, my question didn't make sense b/c I didn't understand waht a modulator was for... heres what I've got to work with:
thanks again
post #18 of 49
A modulator simply lets you take a composite signal from a VCR, DVD player or whatever, and create your own custom channel at a particular frequency. Your VCR itself has a cheap modulator in it that does the same to channel 3 or 4. That's how your old VCR got its picture to a TV with only the RF Coax input on it. The more expensive multi channel modulators from Channel Plus and the like, let you pick the channel you want (within a certain range) instead of ch3 or ch4. Then, you take the coax output of the modulator and combine that with your OTA or Cable. When doing so, you need to insure that the frequency space that you are injecting your modulated channels into is clear. So, you put a low pass filter on your OTA or Cable feed to knock out the higher channels where your modulated channels will go.
post #19 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by robertmee View Post

The basement was an extreme example, but regardless of where you put it, it will always be inconvenient for at least one or two rooms. Most people don't have single story houses with the LR, family room, and bedrooms all nearby.



I agree, but many people who find their way to this board usually have at least a cat5 or two to each room, and I'd rather go the balun route vs RF when PQ is a factor (which it almost always is). Granted, the BEST solution is 5 RG6's to each room for no balun use, distributing HD and audio in its purest analog form, but almost noone who didn't plan it to begin with, has that kind of architecture to work with.

Even with a matrix switcher, the DVD player has to be located somewhere, which is going to be inconvenient for at least 1 or 2 rooms. If there is going to be a DVD player at every TV set, that pretty much negates the need for centralized distribution of any kind (for that particular device).

If one has to have the absolute best PQ at every TV set in the house and has the resources to do so, a matrix switcher and an HDTV set at each location is unquestionably the way to go. For true versatility, CALabs CAT5 baluns as well.

Cost for making 4 sources available at 8 outlets is:
Matrix switcher: $200 ($10k new, but sometimes they can be found on eBay for a couple hundred)
HDTV monitors: $5600 (Based on 8 20" Toshibas at $700 each)
CELabs CAT5 Baluns: $1440 (8@$180 each)
Cordless phone system: $300
That's over $7500.

If one does not absolutely have to have the best PQ at every TV, and/or does not save the cabling to support a matrix switcher but still wants 4 sources available at 8 outlets,
Channel plus SVM-24: $350
Channel Plus DA-550BID Distribution Amplifier: $218
Channel Plus 2100A Infrared Remote In-Wall Interface: $336.8 (8@$42.10)
Channel Plus 2171 Infrared Remote Repeater/Emitter: $50.88 (4@$12.72)
TV sets: Keep the existing ones.
That's little over $900.

If ultimate PQ isn't the biggest concern, RF distribution makes more sense. Cost really is more of the deciding factor.
post #20 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by egnlsn View Post

Even with a matrix switcher, the DVD player has to be located somewhere, which is going to be inconvenient for at least 1 or 2 rooms. If there is going to be a DVD player at every TV set, that pretty much negates the need for centralized distribution of any kind (for that particular device).

If one has to have the absolute best PQ at every TV set in the house and has the resources to do so, a matrix switcher and an HDTV set at each location is unquestionably the way to go. For true versatility, CALabs CAT5 baluns as well.

Cost for making 4 sources available at 8 outlets is:
Matrix switcher: $200 ($10k new, but sometimes they can be found on eBay for a couple hundred)
HDTV monitors: $5600 (Based on 8 20" Toshibas at $700 each)
CELabs CAT5 Baluns: $1440 (8@$180 each)
Cordless phone system: $300
That's over $7500.

If one does not absolutely have to have the best PQ at every TV, and/or does not save the cabling to support a matrix switcher but still wants 4 sources available at 8 outlets,
Channel plus SVM-24: $350
Channel Plus DA-550BID Distribution Amplifier: $218
Channel Plus 2100A Infrared Remote In-Wall Interface: $336.8 (8@$42.10)
Channel Plus 2171 Infrared Remote Repeater/Emitter: $50.88 (4@$12.72)
TV sets: Keep the existing ones.
That's little over $900.

If ultimate PQ isn't the biggest concern, RF distribution makes more sense. Cost really is more of the deciding factor.

For the DVD, I recommend a changer.

I think you are grossly skewing the example by allotting $5600 for TVs in method A) and $0 in method B). Take those out and you have $1900 vs $900. If you have the foresight to run mini 5RG6, then you have $200 vs $900. No need for Baluns and no need for cordless phones. Given that the FCC is mandating HD by 2010, what happens then to all those analog TVs and the analog distribution system, considering digital boxes will not output HD channels onto composite video. OTA won't be an option either. I'm never a proponent of bleeding edge, but the time has come to move away from RF distribution systems, IMHO.
post #21 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by robertmee View Post

For the DVD, I recommend a changer.

I think you are grossly skewing the example by allotting $5600 for TVs in method A) and $0 in method B). Take those out and you have $1900 vs $900. If you have the foresight to run mini 5RG6, then you have $200 vs $900. No need for Baluns and no need for cordless phones. Given that the FCC is mandating HD by 2010, what happens then to all those analog TVs and the analog distribution system, considering digital boxes will not output HD channels onto composite video. OTA won't be an option either. I'm never a proponent of bleeding edge, but the time has come to move away from RF distribution systems, IMHO.

How can you take the TV set out of the picture? Everything that is done is totally dependent on the TV set. If there is already a regular TV set (R.F. input only) at each of the 8 outlets, they must each be replaced in order to take advantage of a switched matrix system.

If one is starting from scratch, that is somewhat of a different story. If PQ is of the utmost importance and the resources are there, definitely a switched matrix system (or some other form of HD distribution system). Even if PQ isn't of the utmost importance (very important nonetheless) and one can swing it, do an HD distribution system. If PQ is quite important but the resources just are not there, R.F distribution system. Still gonna have to buy new TV sets, but at $250 for a 20" Samsung, price tag comes out to ~$2900.

The F.C.C. said that all OTA transmissions must be digital by Feb 17, 2009. On that date, analog transmissions must cease -- only digital broadcasts remain. Not even HD -- just digital. That's OTA only. Doesn't effect anything else in any way. If cable wanted to keep an 82 channel analog lineup, they could. Not gonna happen, though, because they need the bandwidth for bigger and better things. That's large systems. There are tons of small systems that don't have the resources to go digital, and will remain analog for some time. On Feb 17, 2009, there are still going to be a whole lot of analog tuners in use, whether it be in a TV set or VCR or whatever.
post #22 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by robertmee View Post

OTA won't be an option either.

why do you say that?

I'm considering using a hdmi switcher to hdmi extender over utp for digital audio and video distribution, and then use my rg6 to distribute my OTA HD source (which is good enough for me and FREE). Will this work?
post #23 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by egnlsn View Post


The F.C.C. said that all OTA transmissions must be digital by Feb 17, 2009. On that date, analog transmissions must cease -- only digital broadcasts remain. Not even HD -- just digital. That's OTA only. Doesn't effect anything else in any way. If cable wanted to keep an 82 channel analog lineup, they could. Not gonna happen, though, because they need the bandwidth for bigger and better things. That's large systems. There are tons of small systems that don't have the resources to go digital, and will remain analog for some time. On Feb 17, 2009, there are still going to be a whole lot of analog tuners in use, whether it be in a TV set or VCR or whatever.

Once cablecos go digital, the standard freq spectrum that we are used to with 6Mhz bands on channels goes bye bye. The standard of using a low pass filter to knock out a few channels above 80 will no longer hold true, as there will be hundreds of channels and digital content stuffed in that region. Band pass is an option, but who knows what you will knock out, because AFAIK, no digital standard has been defined as to where each channel must be compressed. I suppose you COULD have a purely modulated distribution system, just having your cable box and DVD as the only channels available in the home, but then you are limiting everyone to watching the same channel on all TVs. You can argue that RF will be around for awhile, but I would not recommend it to anyone as eventually it will paint you into a corner. I guess on this we'll have to agree to disagree
post #24 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by sprangdog View Post

why do you say that?

I'm considering using a hdmi switcher to hdmi extender over utp for digital audio and video distribution, and then use my rg6 to distribute my OTA HD source (which is good enough for me and FREE). Will this work?

OTA won't be an option in the sense that NTSC broadcast signals will be replaced with digital and you will need ATSC tuners on your TVs. It was in response to the issue of keeping Analog tuner TVs vs digital capable TVs.
post #25 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by robertmee View Post

Once cablecos go digital, the standard freq spectrum that we are used to with 6Mhz bands on channels goes bye bye. The standard of using a low pass filter to knock out a few channels above 80 will no longer hold true, as there will be hundreds of channels and digital content stuffed in that region. Band pass is an option, but who knows what you will knock out, because AFAIK, no digital standard has been defined as to where each channel must be compressed. I suppose you COULD have a purely modulated distribution system, just having your cable box and DVD as the only channels available in the home, but then you are limiting everyone to watching the same channel on all TVs. You can argue that RF will be around for awhile, but I would not recommend it to anyone as eventually it will paint you into a corner. I guess on this we'll have to agree to disagree

It's about as likely that there will be some sort of standard as far as channel placement on a particular frequency as it is that there will be a national channel lineup -- very unlikely to happen.

There was never any major disagreement. No disagreement on which would be the better of the 2 methods. I just maintained the position that what one does is more dictated by their personal circumstances ($).
post #26 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by egnlsn View Post


The F.C.C. said that all OTA transmissions must be digital by Feb 17, 2009. On that date, analog transmissions must cease -- only digital broadcasts remain. Not even HD -- just digital. That's OTA only. Doesn't effect anything else in any way. If cable wanted to keep an 82 channel analog lineup, they could. Not gonna happen, though, because they need the bandwidth for bigger and better things. That's large systems. There are tons of small systems that don't have the resources to go digital, and will remain analog for some time. On Feb 17, 2009, there are still going to be a whole lot of analog tuners in use, whether it be in a TV set or VCR or whatever.

Turns out, it will not be the case:

http://www.remotecentral.com/cgi-bin...read.cgi?12755

One more hit against RF distribution.
post #27 of 49
Quote:


what happens then to all those analog TVs and the analog distribution system, considering digital boxes will not output HD channels onto composite video.

Robert, you mean component video, correct?

I have been figuring this one out for a while now, what will happen to me component video distribution solution I have current.

I have concluded that I will still be able to receive HD video over analog even though HD will only come out of the HDMI connection on the source. I will use the HDFury to convert the HDMI to RGBHV and just switch RGBHV throughout my house.
post #28 of 49
Quote:


Matrix switcher: $200 ($10k new, but sometimes they can be found on eBay for a couple hundred)

more like $450 and 5K new

but once in while they are $200 but only when I miss bidding on one
post #29 of 49
I do basic cable to all rooms and I have one HD/PVR box in my AV closet that I distribute everywhere.

- Extron Matrix switch
- 5 RG6 component video to 3 rooms
- cat5e to 5 rooms, use HD video baluns.
- CQC on a PC, serial connection to the extron switch
- Nokia 770 in every room to change channels and sources.


Robert and I have the same solution. This gives me DVDs, Music and any other source flexibility to all rooms too.
post #30 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by robertmee View Post

Turns out, it will not be the case:

http://www.remotecentral.com/cgi-bin...read.cgi?12755

One more hit against RF distribution.

Maybe now they will get off their butts and and HD content sooner than later.
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