Are manufacturers getting away from speaker B capabilities?

Do you mean "B" speakers off of the same amps as the front L/R "A" speakers?





What do you mean by ".....either using the speaker terminals for back surround..... or B speakers"?

I don't know about the Pioneer, but, yes, the Denon doesn't have "B" speaker outputs off of the front L/R amps. And if you are using the surround back amp(s), then you'd have to use an external amplifier to set up a Zone2 for your "B" speakers.

Yes, they are, at least for home theater receivers. On the other hand, multi-zone capability is somewhat common, but probably not what you want.

Other than dual zone sound, are there any benefits to A and B speaker capability?

Haven't seen too many like that (6.1 and 2.0) to begin with.
How is that getting away from speaker B ?

I want to install a 7.1 sound system in my living room. I also want to add 2 speakers in another room as zone 2. I do not plan to run both zones simulatneously. Is there a receiver that will work for me? That is, is there enough speaker outputs from a receiver to do this, or must I reduce my living room sound system by two speakers?

Thanks in advance

He means a second pair of speaker outputs off of the same amps as the front R/L "A" outputs, although some manufacturers call the Zone2 speakers "B" (Onkyo, for example, calls them "Zone B"). The Onkyos that allow this (and maybe some other manufacturers) have a separate set of binding posts that allow you to connect Zone B speakers to the surround back amps, but you can't use the amps simultaneously for 6.1/7.1 in the Main Zone and 2-channel in Zone B. You CAN use the Zone B speakers simultaneously with the Main Zone, but when you do that, the Main Zone will only be 5.1 and the surround back amps will serve Zone B.




Yes, see my answer above. There may be some other manufacturers that allow this, as well.

But any receiver with a set of "B" binding posts off of the front R/L channel amps would allow you to do what you want to do, especially since you don't wish to use them simultaneously with the "A" speakers.

With the new Onkyo series (I have the TX-NR905), they have the powered zone 2, which is as you describe, used for the back surround in a 7.1 system or bi-amped front speakers. It also provides a non-powered pre-out for zone 2 that you can connect to an external amp to drive zone 2. In my case, it also has a zone 3, which I haven't used.

Currently, I have a 5.1 setup and used the powered zone 2 to a speaker selector for sound in my other rooms. I was debating the same issue.

Once nice thing about the new zone2 capable receivers is that you can have the surround playing and listen to the same / another input on zone 2 at the same time.

I had the setup you described driving a zone 2 using the speaker B output in my last receiver (Sony).

Interesting. Then I guess I should check to see which receivers have a "powered" zone 2....

Besides the Onkyo 905, can you name some others?

The McIntosh MHT200 has 8 channels of assignable amplification. You can use the 8 channels anyway you like.

You can run, for example, a 6.1 system in the main room and a completely separate source w/2 channels of amplification and remote control from another room.

Either or both can be run at the same time with either the same or different sources.

If all you want is a 2 ch system in the main room, then you have an additional 6 channels to use as you like throughout the house. Could put 2 ch systems in another 3 rooms or even a single speaker in 6 additional rooms.

The only limitation is 2 sources since ther are essentially 2 pre-amps in the unit.

You can also use channels of amplification to bi-amp speakers in either zone if you like.

The design is very flexable. It's an expensive component but then again it contains unique McIntosh quality and appearance throughout so it is unlike any other component of its kind.

Cheers,

Gary

No. You don't understand what he wants. A 5.1 setup in the Main Zone with a "powered" Zone2 is easy to do and almost any 7.1 receiver will allow for this. What he wants is to simultaneously have a full 7.1 setup connected in his Main Zone, not a 5.1 setup, and also be able to easily, at will, use his receiver's 6th and 7th surround rear amps to drive a 2-channel "powered" Zone2. Obviously, you can not do this with a 7.1 receiver and run both setups simultaneously, but he says they will not be used simultaneously. He has a very specific need that I think some receivers WILL be able to provide, but not many. He needs a receiver that has 4 pairs of binding posts off of the surround rear amps; 2 pair (R/L) for his surround rear speakers, and 2 pair (R/L) for his Zone2 speakers. Most receivers only have 2 pair (R/L) of binding posts there that are assigned and connected either to 2 surround rear speakers OR 2 Zone2 speakers; not both simultaneously. (Read on.)





I don't think you're understanding this fully. A "powered" Zone2 isn't ALL that you need. Most 7.1 receivers, when used for 5.1, WILL allow for the 2 extra amp channels to be assigned to a "powered" Zone2. But if you are going to have a 7.1 setup in one room and a 2-channel setup in another, even though you say you won't run them simultaneously, what you will need is NOT simply assignable surround rear amps, but you will need a receiver that allows for simultaneous connections of the surround rear amps to BOTH surround rear speakers AND Zone2 speakers, and that will allow you to choose how the amps are used for each listening situation, on-the-fly, at will. This is a very specific feature and is not simply a "powered" Zone2.

There are a few receivers that will allow for this, but I'm not sure they're Onkyos. Check out Yamahas. I think that some Yamahas offer 4 pair of binding posts (2 pair R+L for the surround rears/2 pair R+L for the Zone2 speakers) off of the 2 surround rear amps that CAN be connected simultaneously, but not used simultaneously, to drive either the surround rear speakers of the Main Zone OR the 2 speakers of Zone2, depending upon your specific need at that particular time. Additionally (and I know you say you don't need this ability), with these Yamahas, if you DO use both sets of speakers (7.1 + Zone2) simultaneously, the receiver will automatically switch the Main Zone to 5.1 to allow simutlaneous use of the Zone2 speakers. You're going to have to download the manuals to see who offers exactly what you need. But simply having a "powered" Zone2 is NOT all that you are looking for. In fact, what you need is much more specific than that.

If you don't like your options, I'd buy an outboard 2-channel amp for your Zone2.

The card-based Onkyo/Integra receivers (TX-NR1000 & DTR-10.5) have SPEAKER A and SPEAKER B, two separate 7.1 systems run off of the same amps.

7.1 CH “Main A” Room & 7.1 CH “Main B” Room

1) Set all Speaker A speakers to “Main A”
2) Set all Speaker B speakers to “Main B”
3) Assign Video Output for “Monitor Out B”
4) Use “Main A” and “Main B” buttons on remote to toggle between
listening rooms.
5) Settings for speaker Impedance, Distance, Level, Crossover, etc.
can be set independently for each room (Main A and Main B)
6) User must be in respective location to view setup menu (Main A location
for Main A setup; Main B location for Main B setup).
7) As an alternative, Main A and Main B speaker can be setup with
other configurations- 7.1 CH Main A & 5.1CH Main B;
7.1 CH Main A & 2 CH Main B; 5.1 CH Main A & 5.1 CH Main B; etc.
NOTE: Both listening zones cannot be active at the same time.

- OR -

You can also have optimized systems for both 7.1 Movies and 5.1 Music thusly:

1) Set Speaker A and Speaker B Surround L/R to “Main A 2ch”
2) Wire Additional Surround L/R to Speaker B terminals
3) Set Listening Mode Preset to alternate between 5.1 or 7.1 systems based
upon DSP (i.e.- 5.1 for music-SACD, DVD-A; and 7.1 for movies – DTS, DD, THX).
4) Subwoofer Option- Install 2 Subs in room (1) Large “Boomy” sounding sub for movies
and (1) Small “Tight” sounding sub for music. Alternate between subwoofers
automatically based on Listening Mode Setup.


- OR -


Switch from 7.1 Main to 5.1 Main + Powered Zone 2 using Speaker A & B terminals.

1) Set all Speaker A to ”Main A”
2) Set Speaker B Surround Back L/R to “Powered Zone 2”
3) Wire Zone 2 speakers to Surround Back B terminals. DTR-10.5 will automatically
switch between Zone 2 speakers & Main Zone Surround Back L/R, without the need
for sacrificing 7.1 operation when Zone 2 is not used.

- OR -

Using bi-wiring for 5.1 theater & tactile transducers (i.e.- Butt Kickers™ type product)

1) Set Speaker A Surround Back to “Bi-Amp for Front”
2) Set front L/R Speaker Crossover to “Full Band”
3) Set Surround Back A speaker impedance to “4 ohms” (if applicable)
4) Wire tactile transducers to Surround Back Speaker B terminals.

- OR -


7.1 CH “Main A” Room with additional Surrounds and Subwoofer


This configuration is useful for providing additional coverage when the room is particularly long and/or large. Alternatively, an additional pair of Surround Back speakers can also be added.

1) Set all Speaker A speakers to “Main A”
2) Set Speaker B Surround L/R and Subwoofer to “Main A”
3) Assign “A+B” for Surround L/R Sp in applicable Listening Modes
Note: Minimum Impedance is 8 Ω when using “A+B” for Surround L/R in Listening Mode Setup. Distances, Levels, Crossover Points, etc. will be identical for all Surround L/R Speakers .


- OR -

Matched 7.1 CH “Main A” Room with additional Front L/R for Stereo Listening

Have the best of both worlds: a harmonically and timbre matched 7.1 Surround System as well as High Quality/Full Range front L/R Speakers for Stereo playback.
1) Set all Speaker A speakers to “Main A”
2) Set Front L/R Speaker B to “Main A”
3) Assign “A+B” for Surround L/R Sp in applicable Listening Modes
Note: Minimum Impedance is 8 Ω when using “A+B” for Surround L/R in Listening Mode Setup. Distances, Levels, and Crossover may be set independently for each Front L/R Speaker Pair


-E

Thanks for the responses! Sivadselim, you are correct in understanding what it is I'm looking for. Egcarter, the receivers you identified would be perfect for my situation. Unfortuantely for me, I can't afford either one of them (sigh).

I sent an e-mail to Yamaha and they stated in their response that their receivers can do what I want. I'll be sure to check out the number of binding posts and how they are set up. Sivadselim, I hope your are correct about the Yammys automatically converting to 5.1 should I runt both zones simultaneously, as that is an acceptable solution for me. I will be sure to ask the salesman about that (wink - as though he would know)!

BTW, The Yamaha 3800 has exactly whay you are looking for.

Cheers,

Gary

Yes, you are correct, but I'll tell you what........................... pages 70 and 71 in the manual are a real bear to wrap your head around. So, you no longer want to be able to do a 6.1/7.1 Main Zone and Zone2 simultaneously?

Does the 3808 not have these same settings?

(edit: I looked and the 3808 doesn't have the same capabilities. It won't easily switch between 7.1 and [5.1 + Zone2] like the 4308 will. $900 is a lot of dough just for that feature, if the 3808 would have sufficed, otherwise.)

Pacbellguy, if you're willing to accept 5.1 in the Main Zone when Zone2 is being used, you may want to look into the Yamahas. Many of them will let you wire for a 6.1/7.1 Main Zone and Zone2 simultaneously and will easily switch between a 6.1/7.1 and [5.1 + Zone2].

You might also want to look into the Denon 4308 that Pacbellguy has found to be able to do what he needs. It basically does the same thing (and a little bit more) that the Yamaha's can do, it just goes about it a little bit differently. I posted a link to the manual and the pertinent pages in my above post.

Expensive, though. Many of the Yamaha models will allow for this for a lot less.

Many of the lower model Yamahas will even do what he wants; simultaneously wire for and easily switch between 6.1/7.1 and [5.1 + Zone2]. Will the 3800 do a 7.1 Main Zone and Zone2 simultaneously? I don't think so; it only has 7 amps.

I wish all these manufacturers would just make the 4 surround amps COMPLETELY FLEXIBLE AND ASSIGNABLE with multiple binding posts that can be wired for multiple wiring schemes, ALL simultaneously. They come close to that, but not quite. The ONKYO/Integras that egcarter mentions in Post#13 have a lot of binding posts and are pretty flexible.

OR why don't they just friggin' add a couple of more amps to the receivers?

I think the cheap Pannasonic's will too.

The Pannies have parallel "B" binding posts off of the front L/R channel amps that WILL allow you to use 2 speakers in another room while still having one room wired for 7.1, but you can't play different source material from the "B" speakers while simultaneously using the 7.1 setup.

But you are correct, for someone who does NOT wish to use both locations simultaneously, any 7.1 receiver that has parallel "B" speaker binding posts off of its front L/R channel amps can be wired for 7.1 in one room with 2 additional "B" speakers wired in another location, that can be used separately.

I hope the Yamaha 1800s work the same way as the 3800s with regard to zone 2 as I'd like to spend less $ for my receiver.

Why don't you quit "hoping", go online, download, and read the instruction manual?

Sivadselim,

I did, but the manual did not provide the specificity that you have, so I appreciate your comments. As I recall, all the manual says is that if you want to run zone 2, then zone one is limited to a 5.1 speaker system. I never saw in the manual where it said that you could still wire up a 7.1 zone 1 and a 2-speaker zone 2 to the receiver and that the receiver would automatically "downshift" zone 1 to a 5.1 setup if running zone 1 and zone 2 simultaneously.

Absolutely true, for the Onkyo 805 at least, that it can run 7.1, or 5.1 while powering zone 2 at the same time, so it's either the rear surrounds OR the zone 2 speakers. I can also confirm that there are separate connections for zone 2 and the rear surround speakers AND that once you begin powering zone 2, that the rear surrounds do get turned off automatically.

It's really quite simple. Most consumer grade receivers all have 7 channels of powered amps, plus the LFE (the .1). Running 6.1 or 7.1 in zone 1 in addition to powering zone 2 would require 1 or 2 additional powered channels. They just aren't there. You would need a 9.1 receiver for 7.1 plus powered zone 2 simultaneously. I have no idea if it exists, but I would imagine it does somewhere.

I find the Yamaha manuals to be some of the toughest to decipher.

Read about the use of "presence speakers" vs. back surrounds and in which cases one or the other is used. There is info buried in the manual about using the presence speaker outputs for a pair of Zone2 speakers, etc., etc..

If I get the chance, I'll look at the 1800's manual to see what it may or may not be capable of doing.

Yeah, it's the redundant, assignable, and flexible connections off of the surround back/Zone2 amps that aren't always there on some receivers. On many it's either a 6th and 7th speaker for your 7.1 OR it's Zone2 speakers, but not both. And some of the receivers with dual pairs of binding posts for both of those options, still do not really allow switching between 7.1 vs. [5.1+Zone2] "on the fly".

The difference between the way the Denon 3808 and the 4308 handle these things is interesting.

And see my Post#20.

Nkanter,

Thanks for the info. The Onkyos will be on my short list.