BIC DV62si (Ed Frias mods)

I've never heard the 62sis but I've owned a pair of the DV62CLR-S mtm models with Ed's crossover mods, which should be better than the sis. I liked them (only with the mods, hated them without), but I didn't love them. I can tell you that at the time when Ed started modding these speakers, they were probably the best value going for small speakers, or certainly one of the best.

These days though, there are many other cheap bookshelf options that IMO beat them, or should beat them by reputation. I can tell you the SVS SBS-01s (from www.svsound.com) are definitely better, so their bigger SCS-01s would be even that much more of an improvement. They are a bit more expensive but well worth it.

I haven't heard them but the X series speakers from AV123 should definitely be better.

And I'd seriously recommend checking out the new Acculine A1s from www.theaudioinsider.com. They're $249/pair so definitely more money than the modded BICs but from the early reviews they're excellent speakers (and I know from experience that Jon Lane doesn't sell anything that doesn't sound great and that isn't a great value). He might have package pricing available if you ask, but don't quote me on that.

I have some of EFE's own speakers, but have not heard their modified BICs. Their own speakers are amazing though, even the lower priced ones.

I haven't heard Ed's EFE designs but I can guarantee you they sound a LOT better than the modded BICs.

Correction -- it's probably good for a speaker that size and THAT PRICE.

If all you're concerned about is heavy bass regardless of sound quality, why don't you just go buy a big set of cheap Cerwin Vegas or something with huge cheap drivers? All the other speakers mentioned are considerably better products than the BICs, with or without Ed's mods (though from what you're saying, you might even prefer the BIC's cheap-sounding boom & sizzle without the mods).

A much better choice, if you are in fact interested in some level of sound quality, would be to get a somewhat better set of speakers like the SVSs, X series or Acculines, then add a sub when you get a little more money, for a decent little budget 2.1 system that would sound WAY better than the cheap BICs. PartsExpress.com for example sells a very popular Dayton sub for around $100 (maybe a few $ more) that would surely give you much better and deeper bass response than any cheap bookshelf speakers ever could.

By the way, you mentioned that you auditioned and liked the B&W 685, Paradigm Titans, and Focal 806V. I haven't heard any of these though I'm very familiar with the older version of the B&W, having owned a set of DM602 S2s for a while (and having spent a lot of time listening to the S3s). They, and probably the other two you mentioned, are WAY better speakers than the BICs, and should be for the prices. You'll never get sound from those BICs like you heard from the B&Ws and probably the others as well, so make sure your expectations are realistic.

If you're set on getting B&W 685 level sound, better to wait til you can afford to buy the speakers you really want.

Buddy, you're not paying attention. If you'll scroll up to post #3, you'll see that I owned a pair of the BETTER VERSION of the 62sis, the 62CLR-S, and I'm very familiar with the older version of the B&Ws you listened to and I'm telling you in no uncertain terms THE MODDED BICS ARE NOT AS GOOD. Period. I'm a professional sound engineer -- I do not need a side-by-side comparison to know that. I bought the stock BICs, listened to them, burned them in, listened again, then sent them to Ed, got them back, and listened extensively again -- then I sold them.

If you're willing to spend $600, why are you even considering $100 speakers with mods that make them moderately better??

You need to spend some time doing a lot more research and listening, if you want to get the best value for your dollar and end up with something you'll really be happy with. If not, please go ahead and buy those modded BICs, then come back and give us your review of them. We'll be more than pleased to read it.

There are any number of good speakers in the $600/pr range and you should listen to as many of them as you can before you buy anything. EFE makes a $600 speaker, the B-15, but I have not heard it so I can't comment on it. But since hearing is so subjective, my opinion of any speaker might not match yours anyway, so you should always do what you can to listen yourself.

If you are interested in EFE's modified BIC, why don't you contact EFE and ask them to put you in touch with someone in your area who has them and who will let you listen to them? Then make up your own mind.

And einstein, I can't fault the OP for being a bit confused by your posts. You seem to be giving opinions, and guarantees, about speakers you have not heard as well as speakwrs you have heard. It is hard to tell which is which. And no one should be offering opinions, or making guarantees, about speakers they have not heard. And burning-in speakers? All the sound engineers and speaker manufacturers I have spoken with have said that doing that is as silly as buying expensive cables. If you know of any scientific basis for burning-in a speaker, perhaps you can pass it on.

I've read a lot of things that are promoted as gospel but are really just snake oil or psuedo-science. My neighbor is a recording engineer and musician, my dad is a top electrical engineer, and I have spoken with a number of speaker manufacturers, all of whom assert that speaker burn-in does nothing noticeable. But I am not a speaker engineer myself, so I am only taking their word for it.

Hmm, it's interesting that you found my posts confusing... I thought I was very clear on what I have and have not in fact heard. And in the case of the speakers I haven't heard, I either said I have no experience with them so cannot comment on them at all (e.g., the Focals and Titans) or I am familiar with older or similar models, so my assumptions should be valid. For example, I'm very familiar with B&W DM602 S2s and S3s. I know from experience that each version of these speakers has been noticeably better than the last. The 685 is the newest iteration of these speakers so I believe it's very reasonable to assume they're at least as good as the 602s, probably somewhat better, unless B&W has very recently gone down the tubes.

As for the BICs, you're right, I'm well aware of the 3 versions you described. I have the same packet of material from Ed that you just quoted from. Yes, it's definitely possible the fully modded versions are better than the crossover-only versions. Are they likely to be completely different to the point of being world-class speakers? I'm going to say it's unlikely, since they do in fact use the exact same drivers and cabinet, and a very similar, though more personally tuned, crossover. They'll definitely be more consistent from one example to the next, but completely different? Doubt it.

And I did explain that the ones I've owned were the DV62CLR-S, not the 62si -- but I would love to see even one example of someone who's owned both and thought the 62si was better than the CLR-S. I've read the same reviews you have, and found universally that folks thought the bigger CLR-S was the better speaker. Therefore, if the OLDER version of the B&Ws in question is clearly better than the BETTER version of the speakers you're asking about, I don't think my conclusions and assumptions are too big a stretch.

My engineering partner agreed with me, that the BICs (with crossover-only mods) were surprisingly nice for what I paid, which was something like $200 for the pair plus the cost of the crossover mods, if I recall. A very good value.

And the general point that "more money does not always mean a better speaker" is definitely valid. However, in this low price range, even a few hundred dollars more usually does equate to much better speakers. It's when you get into the higher priced products that the rule of diminishing returns starts to kick in. For example, how much better will an $8000 pair of speakers be than a $6000 pair? $2000 better? Maybe, maybe not. The cheaper speaker might be preferred by many; at that price range, it's usually all pretty good, and you're just choosing flavors of excellent. However there's usually a VERY big difference between a pair of say $169/pair bookshelf speakers and a $600 pair. And when you get into the high value ID brands, there's usually an even bigger difference in quality.

Please, do not use Bose as an example of anything other than pure evil. They are FAR from typical!! Everyone with any experience at all knows you're only paying for a world-class marketing campaign; otherwise they're pretty much junk.

I'd also caution against putting too much faith in anything you read on AudioReview.com. I've almost never found a bad review on there! Keep in mind, the vast majority of people posting reviews there just bought their new speakers and they're loving them, so whatever they paid for them they usually rave about how great they are. Of course there are exceptions, and there are some really experienced and knowledgeable people on there. But in general, you'll find the same adjectives used on that site for $200 speakers as $2000 ones. You're much better off finding a few users on forums like this one who obviously have years of experience comparing different brands and learning what you can from them (while of course, in the end, only trusting your own ears to decide what to buy and keep).

As for the burn-in issue, that's a debate that's been raging since the beginning of audiophilia, and will probably keep raging for many years to come. In my experience, I've owned speakers, and headphones too for that matter, that did definitely benefit from burn-in, and I've also owned some that did not. My Swan 5.2s sound a bit more open than they originally did, but no major changes. My engineering partner's Dali Helicon 800s definitely improved with a few dozen hours of use.

And by the way, while we're discussing engineers and speaker designers that do or do not believe in burn-in, Jon Lane of TheAudioInsider.com definitely recommends burn-in for his Swans. And it was Ed Frias himself, while we're on the subject, who explained to me on the phone a couple years ago that in his experience, tweeters generally don't change with burn in, but woofers do. He said the suspensions will loosen up slightly on SOME drivers, causing the mids and lows to warm up and open up, which can give the impression that the highs have become less prominent or harsh in comparison. Please feel free to call and ask him yourself; I'm sure he'll confirm this.

When I first started reading about the modded BICs I became very curious about them too, which is why I bought them. After owning the crossover modded ones, my curiosity was satisfied -- to my ears, they were quite good FOR THE LOW PRICE I PAID but not up to my standards so I sold them. YMMV.

By the way... IMO buying expensive cables really is silly.

I used to have a 5.1 setup comprised of Bic's. DV64 fronts, DV62CLRS center and DV62si rears. All had crossovers modified by Ed Frias. As einsteinjb said, there are probably better options available now from av123, SVS etc. The modified Bic's sound very good for the price, but I felt that they lacked in many areas. For Home theater they were great and filled the room easily. For critical music listening they were lacking. They had a narrow soundstage and would compress at high volumes. they were enjoyable, but not great.

The DV62si does produce a good amount of bass for a bookshelf and if you can find a pair for under $120 they are still a good value. I just think there are other great values out there that will sound a little better. I would also check audiogon and find a good pair of used monitors that would blow away the Bic's, modified or not.

BTW, the EFE crossover mods did make a big improvement compared to stock.

Yep I'll agree with everything Johsti said. Excellent description of their performance. I really did like the DV62CLR-S as a center speaker for home theater. Dialog was very clear on it. In fact I had one set up as my center with the B&W DM602 S2s as mains and had no complaints about it for HT. Music is definitely where you'll start to notice the speaker's shortcomings.

And I also agree about Ed's mods -- without them I thought the speakers just plain sucked, totally unlistenable to me. With them, they became a very listenable set of cheap speakers, representing a very good value for the low price. I don't want to take anything away from Ed's skills, he definitely knows his craft.

I asked Ed once why he bothers spending time modifying cheap speakers, when there are companies making very good inexpensive speakers that don't need modification. He told me at the time when he started doing it, there were very few options out there for people who really wanted great sound but had a very low budget. He liked the drivers used in the BICs and realized they'd sound a lot better with a better crossover, so he started doing them as a good low cost option for people to get into decent sound. I would imagine he's realized by now that the market's changing and cheap speakers are getting better (at least the ID brands are), but maybe he'll keep doing it as long as there's a demand for it...

I would like to point one thing out about the BICs. The cabinets are pretty much bottom of the line, quality-wise. They look cheap and slapped together, especially if you open them up and peek inside. They're thin, really not braced, pretty much just pieces of thin MDF cut and glued together with drivers and a crossover popped in. The vinyl (I believe) wrap is also low quality. These suckers aren't winning any WAF contests.

I don't recall if Ed does anything to improve the build or bracing or dampening of the cabinets on his fully modded ones... Might want to ask him about that.

Ed Frias once told me the same thing he told einstein about why he sold modified BICs: he was trying to give people a relatively cheap speaker that did what no other speaker did in its price range. But it was never his primary market and he seemed to do it more as a favor to people in that price range than anything else. Give Ed a call and chat with him about your concerns. He is an honest and straightforward guy and may even point you to another speaker company entirely.

Thanks for your review. There WILL always be a market for entry lvl or bang for the buck speaker buyers. As many buyers before you, they all agree..BICs are great speakers for the price.

This is not the only post that says there are better alternatives for the Bics. I just looked at offerings from AV123, SVS, and looked at Audiogon website and the prices for the first two are considerably more expensive for comparable offerings to the Bic, not to mention the frequency response does not go as low.

I don't know how much Ed Frias charges for the XO mod, but assuming it's around $40 or $50 the Bic still looks like the speaker to beat in terms of price to performance. I haven't seen anyone suggest a speaker that offers better bang for the buck and we are in 2009. Even if these other speakers you suggest offer better soundstage and resonance, they only go down to 60hz. Some of us want something that offers something more full spectrum like these Bics because we don't want to (or can't accomodate) a subwoofer (like those who live in apartment).

I know this took a long time to answer, but I am going to agree! Some of the above posters were a little confusing by saying they only liked it after the $30.00 mod but hated it before? I dont know how, when this is supposed to be one of the best center channel speakers without the mod, even to this day! It seemed they were trying to deter the O.P. from BICs? They didnt think that the extensive mod made that much difference in sound quality, then just paying for a slightly modded crossover, which is all they had? Ed explained that it's a HUGE difference, and thus the definition of EXTENSIVE! Ed Frias custom tunes each component in every speaker to exacting standards, using much better quality parts in the speaker and crossover. This is why you get a low cost speaker to sound as good as a higher priced speaker! When Ed clearly states that he personaly compared his highly modified DV62CLRs and they sound better then the very expensive and top performing brands he mentioned, I believe him! I am leaning on getting a few of these myself, as Ed told me they are excellent for 2 channel music listening as well. I told him it might take a while, as I enjoy great sound, but times are tight right now. I also thought of paying more for his higher cost EFE brands, that some of his very prominent clients said, sounded as good as $10,000 to 20,000 speakers. Good thing my tastes don't need to go that high!

Well I can't afford the highly modified EFE version so I had to order the stock version of the DV62CLR-S. I have had them for a few days and am continuing to break them in before deciding whether I want to send them to Ed or not for the crossover mod. I have been leaning very strongly that way since before I even purchased the speakers but I wanted to at least give them a chance in their stock form.

My DV62CLR-S is due to arrive tomorrow and is meant as replacement for my Onkyo HTIB center channel speaker. For the front L/R's, I still haven't decided between either two more DV62CLR-S's or a couple of the DV64 towers. I spoke to Ed over the weekend and was very impressed with how personable he is. My home theater budget is so tight that it is not even funny so it helps knowing that by going with BIC speakers, I can live with for awhile and if I decide later, I always have the option of sending crossovers to Ed.

BTW, I am also planning on buying four of the DV62si bookshelf speakers for my surrounds.

Sounds great! I am interested in how it turns out!

I tried Ed's mod and it was an improvement but I still was not satisfied. Being an incessant modder myself I just could not leave well enough alone. The major problem was not getting enough high midrange out. These are two way speakers and that's the way they sound, with or without Ed's mod. The other problem was the tendency to be tunnel-ish.

So I made my own mod. My mod fixes both those problems. It took a long time and lots of testing but it's finally done. It's amazing. The DV62si's sound like 3-ways. The articulation of the voice is there in all it's glory. The soundstage is much more three dimensional.

OK, the suspense is killing me... What is your mod?

I am using four "stock" DV62si's for surrounds in my 7.1 system. All three fronts are "stock" DV62CLR-S and one BIC F12 sub. Very pleased! All speaker set to small with crossovers at 80. My wife has it cranked up at this very moment listening to a Gospel Music Awards show on Direct TV.