Pirates of the Caribbean, big framing problems!! - Page 19  

OMG! No offense intended.....but you need to relax........I could care less if you go format neutral or HD-DVD solely, but to denounce the entire format and studio over a mistake really doesn't make any sense.

I know everyone is impatient, but companies don't usually move quickly....I know, I know, I work for one.............has Disney officially stated that they will do nothing? Does anyone actually know?

and none of that changes the fact that in the theater you could see his face. :P

That is my point. Everyone makes mistakes (I even made one once.... I thought I was too modest...), and I am not denouncing the format (any format) over that. All I am saying is that if Disney chose to ignore the problem and hope it blows over, like some are speculating, coupled with the fact that they are a major blu studio, I would be pressed to put stock into anything from them...

Right now, I could count the number of Blu titles I am interested in on one hand. Pirates is one of them, and is probably at the top of that list. I am more than willing to live with the SD version that is framed properly if The Mouse decides that the general public will never notice (or care). If that is indeed the case, I have little else to compel me to move Blu right now (that can and most probably will change come the new year, as more titles are released).

Everyone of course has different tastes in films. I can't wait for the Spiderman Trilogy.

This one mistake will not stop me from buying Disney films that I want on Blu-Ray.

We do need an answer one way or the other from Disney and I'm sure someone such as yourself or others who are passionate about this will keep the pressure on them to provide one.

It'll be the easiest thing in the world to correct this few minutes.

Disney can then press all future discs with the tweaked version.

The can also put out a low-key press release offering a replacement.

Apart from a few internet users, hardly anyone with the original disc will take them up on it.

I can't understand why they haven't simply offered to do this already.

It's quick, easy, will cost little, and makes them look good.

Steve W

They have to rescan it, re-encode it, create all new masters, go through testing again to make sure the master is good, then do all new production runs.

That's not the kind of thing they'll knock it in twenty minutes for a fiver, and the fact that only a handful of internet users care is exactly why it won't happen.

Actually all they have to do is reframe the affected minutes, encode, etc. Not much more complicated than what Universal did for BTTF II&III.

Hate to quibble semantics here but . . .

it IS in fact routine for SOME shots in virtually all digitally posted Super 35 films to be reframed in post.

ABSOLUTELY

Also, there are so many variations on shooting and posting Super 35
that there is no ONE single standard . . . . no single way is "routine."

I can bet you big money that EVERY Super 35 film finished digitally has at least ONE shot re-framed . . . [ I've been shooting Super 35 and finishing digitally for a long time so you might not want to take the bet ]

That said, it is safe to say that directors and cameramen set up a particular aspect ratio and don't want you to see the other stuff.

Also, keep in mind that SUPER 35 is a PROCESS not a specific aspect ratio.

The process is to shoot the entire width of the negative as opposed to
protecting the optical soundtrack area . . . . seems odd in this digital
age but the so-called ACADEMY camera formats do not use the optical sound track area.

Also, and this may be most germaine to the subject . . . .

THERE ARE MULTIPLE STANDARDS FOR EACH SUPER 35 ASPECT RATIO

To wit;

For 2.40 extraction the most common framing standards are . .

1 - COMMON CENTER -- equal crop top and bottom
2 - COMMON HEADROOM -- most of the crop on the bottom
3 - SPLIT CENTER aka FINCHER CROP -- one third off the top / two thirds off the bottom

I think the PIRATES misframe issue could stem from one standard
being used in the camera and another standard used in the transfer.

IE: If the scene were shot with COMMON HEADROOM and transferred
as if it were COMMON CENTER the 2.40 extraction would be lower
than intended and Orlando would lose his head.

Unfortunately, sometimes more than one standard can be used on the same film and that can cause "problems."

ALL this said;

The issue is that a mistake was made on the framing of PIRATES.

It should not have happened.

It should be corrected.

Disney should fess up and fix it

PERIOD . . . regardless of WHY it happened or which HD format.

-30-





-30-

Won't happen.

Perhaps I wasn't clear enough:
Yes, it goes on for eight minutes, but not eight minutes of chopped off heads. The shots that show characters that are "obviously" out of the frame are not obvious (and I will show this) and those are what only show for fractional seconds and last for a few second all together when totaled. Even then, they are NOT obviously out of the frame. There is a reason they were missed, so let me explain it to you:

Let's go back to this, statment, because it's clearly what needs to be understood:
"So yes, at least three of those face-croppings occur after the face has passed through the scene or were captured before the face finished moving into the scene (going down stairs)."

Now, If someone jumps to their feet on film from below the frame, their entire character rises into view. This happens in both framings. REPEAT: The ENTIRE character comes into view. When he has reached a standing position, the scene immediately switches. You can see the entire actor's face as he rises in both versions. Because it was supposed to be an impressively quick leap to his feet before continuing the battle, the scene cuts away extremely quickly. If the last fraction of a second showed the face cut off, you would assume that it was supposed to be because you just saw all you needed to see. After a character leaves the scene (EXIT! Stage left.), of course the scene will change so this appears completely normal. The movie did not dewll on it. It immediately changed. Get your perspective right: Bloom wasn't just standing there in the film, and that's why no one caught it until now during testing or after release.


Now, there's another good demonstration shot of the Norrington character standing on the stairs with his face cut off. Guess what? He wasn't standing! There was a very important difference: He was walking down stairs. In both the DVD AND the Blu-Ray disc, he entered the scene with his head out of the frame and stepped down the stairs revealing his head. It revealed a split second earlier on the DVD because the framing was higher but, because he did step with his face fully in view in both versions, the scene continues as it was supposed to do. Just because someone freeze-framed it at the same moment and at that moment his head was not yet fully revealed does not mean that it was "obvious" on the BD version alone in the same way that it wasn't "obvious" on the correctly framed DVD version when his face was chopped off half a second earlier. Quite the opposite: You would need to see both not only side-by-side, but perfectly synchronized to see the "obvious" difference. Even then, without closely watching the floors and walls, it would simply look like they are unsynchronized until everyone stopped moving. At any place where that happens, there are no obvious parts chopped off. PERIOD.


For the reasons stated above: NOPE.


And on the BD you could see his face.

Okay, I haven't really been keeping up with this thread. Although it must be said that it's pretty pathetic that Disney hasn't done anything yet (not even address the situation). Sony offered replacements for Fifth Element yet Disney does nothing. It seems that Sony cares for early adopters while Disney continues to brush them away.

The Fifth Element had nothing wrong with it. They were replacing it because they released a much better version and they didn't want to alienate the early adopters. THE ENTIRE MOVIE was visually better using the AVC codec. It's nothing like the BTTF and Fifth Element situation. It's only a few seconds where people can't fully be seen and the worst you can do is claim that the entire 8mins were "ruined" along with those (they werent). Furthermore, I've already demonstrated that even those few seconds were not ruined. I don't have the capability to prove it with a video, but I will as soon as I humanly can.

It never ceases to amaze me how some people cannot grasp such a simple statement "It is not correct. Period. If you don't notice (or care), that's your issue. I, for one, am a enthusiast of film as it is supposed to be seen, and that includes correct framing as much as it does OAR. The posts that seem to be defending Disney's apathy is really pathetic on what is supposed to be a gathering of other film enthusiasts. The fact that someone does not notice something does nothing to change the facts; it merely illuminates what he cares about (or his apathy). The SD version of the film is superior in that it is as was framed in theaters. The mere fact that it looks and sounds better on HD, despite that it is MAR for significant parts of it (and, yes, anything is significant to someone who cares about the film, and is not simply a format fanboy), does not change the issue. These pathetic attempts at legitimizing Disney's screw-up and subsequent ignoring of the issue just go to show that there are an increasing number of people here who shouldn't be (there are more suitable fanboy sites out there)...


... it's like talking to a wall... I want HDM to stay niche as it will keep this stuff at bay (imagine what will happen when J6P starts calling the shots - with their wallets). As a niche, LaserDisc catered to those who cared about the entire presentation. As I have repeatedly pointed out, the 1993 release of "The Empire Strikes back" was missing 9 seconds of Leia welding on the Falcon. Enthusiasts rallied to get FOX to replace the affected disc, not because it affected the enjoyment of the film, not because the viewer was missing any dialog, but because it was an error. Period. Please stop saying "it is only 8 minutes"... I don't care if it is 2 seconds; it is an error. Deal with it.

I am pretty pissed that Disney hasn't even made a peep on this yet.

I'm supporting the format and their releases with my hard earned $$$ - the least they can do is man up and say they messed up.

They probably won't though. My guess is they will quietly release a fixed version and not publicly offer an exchange program, a la Lionsgate.

Exactly. The framing during those 8 mins on the BD is supposed to be the same as the framing in the theatrical/DVD version.

*sigh*
"Fanboy" - Why is it that this word is always the first shot across the bow from people who don't understand?

First of all "I am NOT saying this in defense of the Blu-Ray format. I am saying this in response to the ridiculous assertions [demanding] that Disney replace these discs."

In light of the error's seriousness, which I revealed was far lower than the discussion has reflected, it's ridiculous to expect them to replace anything, therefore it's ridiculous to demand it. To demand it without reason is to pretend that it is a bigger problem than it is with no regard for the consequences. To demand it without a chance of it happening only serves to needlessly sour things for everyone and generate more negativity than the error actually warrants.


I practice what I preach BROTHER. I would like a replacement but, after fully understanding the error and the chances of that happening, I refuse to believe that the error is serious enough for that to be a reasonable demand. Let's imagine that the theatrical version were framed like the BD the situation was reversed because Disney "fixed" the original error. Let's say they "forgot" to fix it on the DVD. Would we be demanding a replacement for the "fixed" BD version? Always demanding the original is like blindly saying that the original decisions were always correct. Ironically, my little scenario there assumes that the error is as serious as those in this thread believe (without listening): It's not. Only in the land of synchronized still shots would it be seen as an error, and I can prove that with video. A viewer of both very well may think that the incorrect framing was intentional if it were in the original instead.

First of all, I didn't "defend" Disney or the error. I don't know how you can claim that. I simply corrected the people who ignorantly kept saying that it was obvious (based on still frames) and told them that there is a "fat chance" that Disney would replace them. The chance *is* slim IMO and I explained why. Am I suddenly not allowed to apply logic and form a prediction? Just because the prediction isn't what you or I "want" doesn't mean I have formed sides on the matter. Didn't you notice the part where I said that I would exchange mine if they did this despite my prediction? If the people I was correcting would even press "Play" they would see exactly what I said they would see. All that stuff I said about being OCD and *STILL* not being too bothered by it was to make sure people understood the degree to which it was not noticable so they would stop basing their judgements on the screenshots and listen to a true OCD film fan's reasoning. You misinterpreted that as some kind of attempt to give Disney a cop-out. Now, why can't I discuss and correct people or have an opinion on the seriousness that differs from yours without being called a fanboy?

There's a difference between missing content and this. Clearly, they went back further than the theatrical master if this type or cropping is even possible. Ask yourself: Why? Following this logic, is any remastered movie "broken?" If you truely understand my points, you'd see that most of the cropping error resulted in changes that appeared intentional. In fact, only the part showing them in the roof seems to indicate that it is not, but if they let the current framing setting run for 8mins, they probably can't be bothered to change it for some of the split second shots (and they may yet have been trying to hide the stunt-double in high-def).

I admit, I can't stand the Lion King Special Edition for ruining the movie by adding a song that was originally cut for a reason and then branching to an unrestored segment to bypass it when you opt out of it, but I understand that that's the way it is. Demanding your preferred version is very different to demanding a recall/fix. Sure, it's not uncommon for an exchange program in the event that demand creates one (Fifth Element, BTTF), but that sets no precedent. It's not like George Lucas gave away the original trillogy on DVD for free to Special Edition "1.1" DVD customers when he was finally pressured to release the ones mastered from LaserDisc. Fat chance on getting Disney to do the same.


Well, there's your problem right there. I never said that it was "OK" because it was only eight minutes. I said that the entire movie wasn't ruined and there is very little chance that Disney will replace it. I went on to say that even those eight minutes weren't "ruined." I explained even further that what looks ruined to everyone here also is not and that these account for only a scant few seconds of the film. "Changed" does not equal "ruined" either; It equals "different." Of course we have a problem with "different," but it's not a big enough problem for them to fix it. Of course, I may be wrong, but until then: Deal with it.

YOU have a problem with it being different, *I* have a problem with it being different, but just because I stuck my neck out to correct the misguided people who are saying that it is worse than it is and that due to this Disney will probably not fix it, I somehow don't belong here and you do? Listen to yourself. Please don't say that you'd rather go on blissfully unaware than listen to someone apply logic and perspective. Even if you are going to demand it, don't you need to know how baseless or justified they are before you end up wasting your time?

That's the same logic that the movie channels use to say "uncut and unedited" for their cropped presentations. There is missing footage, just as in MAR...

I see that you responded, so I had to stop retroactively writing that post. Please re-read.
Edit: I made more edits (I just can't help myself!).

Just curious.
How many people have watched the BD movies and never noticed this issue ?

Is it only one person who noticed, the OP and now everyone wants a "fix" AFTER they have enjoyed the movie already ?

To be honest with you I never noticed this issue until the OP pointed it out. It simply did not jump out at me at all. When you know where to look and slow-mo the scene(s) or pause you will see what has been pointed out.

I know some of you have a problem with this and that's fine based on your feelings, but I'm not going to lose sleep over it. I enjoyed the movie and even after watching it again, still enjoyed it. If a replacement disc becomes available, I'll take them up on the offer. If not, life goes on and I will still enjoy this BD in my collection.

This thread always makes me think of Weird Al's "Close but no cigar"

Pirates of the Caribbean
was a funny entertaining movie
it had great picture quality and awesome sound
one of the funnest films on blu there is around

it makes sleepy hollow look like it was filmed on VHS
and full metal jacket like it was captured with a webcam
but there's those 8 minutes that don't look quite right
when you're watching it frame by frame!

Oh, no! I said
"Hey! Are we lobbing hand grenades, kiddo?
No I don't think we are!
You're close! (Close!)
Oh, so very close! (Close!)
Yeah, baby, you're close! (Close!)
So close!
But no cigar!"

So do you think the HD DVD version of Top Gun having framing problems will be discussed for 18+ pages as well? What will people say about HD DVD, a serious blight in general?!!

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=916912

And uh, what framing "problems" are there with Top Gun?
Oh yeah, I forgot this is AVS, where the bitrate meter rules and directors f*ck up their own movies.

Cut off heads are the new black. Just you wait and see. There will be a flurry of films with heads cut off at the mouth at Cannes next year.

Nobody noticed this until the OP pointed it out. It's time to move on.

The movie was out for how long?

How many noticed? very few aka none that posted about it.

Now it´s known and people cry like they were robbed of their brains.

Return it to disney and demand a refund then.

Wow . . . been awhile since I checked in on this thread. Got pretty ridiculous. I really don't see why all the discussion is needed . . . there was a mistake made, it needs to be remedied. If I buy a brand new car and it has a ding in the door, no matter how noticeable or unnoticeable, I want it fixed, if anything else just on principle. I would think fans of HDM would expect this same type of service, since an improvement in quality is the whole point of HDM. Give someone an inch, next time they may take a mile.

Nothing we can do about that since AVS is a public forum anyone can join.

Including people who complains about "too much grain" and "I hate black bars". They are the same species. Put them on your ignore list. That the best a non-moderator member can do.

I know its frustrating but . . . oh well.