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New Epson EMP-TW2000 50.000:1 dynamic contrast - Page 2

post #31 of 1093
Quote:


Sorry for being confused by these model numbering, but is this to be the replacement for the PowerLite Home Cinema 1080?

No, Epson said they will sell both this year. The home Cinema 1080 (aka TW1000) will be sold for the lower market (~$3000 USD), and the TW2000 for the higher market.

Quote:


Looking at the Epson presentation slide, it is mentioned that some sort of phase control tech is use to acheive high CR. What's that?

According to "Popular Science" magazine, in the TW2000, Epson was able to increase native CR, by using some sort of an evaporating solution carrier, in order to pour the liquid crystals. This way after the crystals have been poured, and the carrier solution has evaporated, the crystals are more ordered and sealed, and this is very important in order to create high CR.

Quote:


Ouch. To go from there to 50000:1 you need a very agressive DI. This baby has no chance to come even close to the HD1 or HD100. If it tries it's compression artifact city.

Cine4home reported that the DI was off during presentation, and even still the blacks and contrast were very very good, to the point it was no longer an issue for LCD projection, in their words.
post #32 of 1093
Quote:
Originally Posted by cpc View Post

I think it's some sort of polarizer. Remember the Ultra-Mitsubishi cine4home created which acheived a very high contrast ratio had an iris which controlled stray light.

Isn't this pretty similar to what JVC used on the RS1 to create their high contrast ratio? A wire-grid polarizer?
post #33 of 1093
Quote:
Originally Posted by buddahead View Post

How do you know this if you have not even seen one yet.BOB

Simple physics.
4500:1 panel On-off sets hard limits, DI or no DI.
post #34 of 1093
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jones_Rush View Post

Cine4home reported that the DI was off during presentation, and even still the blacks and contrast were very very good, to the point it was no longer an issue for LCD projection, in their words.

yeah, yeah. I know how 4500:1 On-off looks. Far from 'no longer an issue'. Did you notice the room they were sitting in? Reflective walls...
post #35 of 1093
Quote:
Originally Posted by mhafner View Post

Simple physics.
4500:1 panel On-off sets hard limits, DI or no DI.

post #36 of 1093
Quote:
yeah, yeah. I know how 4500:1 On-off looks. Far from 'no longer an issue'

It all depends what is your reference.

If your reference is theater film, then 4500:1 is for the first time for LCD projectors, better than the best theater, and so black levels are no longer an issue.

If your reference is CRT projectors (artificial representation of film), then 4500:1 is still an issue.
post #37 of 1093
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jones_Rush View Post

It all depends what is your reference.

If your reference is theater film, then 4500:1 is for the first time for LCD projectors, better than the best theater, and so black levels are no longer an issue.

If your reference is CRT projectors (artificial representation of film), then 4500:1 is still an issue.

Or if your reference is the real world or what the standards call for, it is still an issue. There are multiple issues, like that not everything we get is shot on film or even displayed on film, and there is some argument that some of the best film in the best environments can go higher than 4500:1. If your reference is your local theater, then by that argument little lit up exit signs next to the screen in your home theater wouldn't be an issue.

--Darin
post #38 of 1093
"By the various improvements in the optical optical path the TW2000 in the technical data offers impressing values: It is to combine a maximum brightness of 1600 lumens with a contrast of up to 50,000:1, as much as no other Heimkinobeamer before."

I hope this thing really turns out to be a bit brighter than the competition. I have this dread that it will turn out like all the rest of the 1080 lcd crop so far and I'll end up reading something like "although at maximum brightness this machine puts out a theoretical 1600 lumens, after calibration and in cinema mode we measured 234 lumens blah, blah, blah..."

If this machine is bright and an improvement on the already ostensibly well regarded TW1000, then I may have found my new projector.
post #39 of 1093
Quote:


If your reference is your local theater, then by that argument little lit up exit signs next to the screen in your home theater wouldn't be an issue.

Now that I think of it, I never notice these signs during a movie in the theater. Maybe I'm not that critical...
post #40 of 1093
For best color performance it will use a cinema filter in the light path. My guess is close to 500 ANSI lumen in truest mode and high lamp.
post #41 of 1093
~5000:1 native on/off is a real improvement for LCD. I'd be interested to see what the simultaneous contrast on this projector is. In any case, this represents a ~4x improvement in native contrast for 3LCD, and should bring it to the level of a Pearl as far as native contrast goes. 10X DI seems pretty aggressive, although perhaps they have better AI to control its use and suppress visible artifacts. Even with mild / conservative DI settings this should be fairly impressive.

Another interesting question is whether all the new 3LCD projectors will be using these panels, or if it's Epson exclusive for now. Mitsubishi and Sanyo have advertised very minimal improvements in their new model PJs and I've seen no mention of this improved polarization technique from any of the other manufacturers.
post #42 of 1093
Quote:
Originally Posted by sethk View Post

~5000:1 native on/off is a real improvement for LCD. I'd be interested to see what the simultaneous contrast on this projector is. In any case, this represents a ~4x improvement in native contrast for 3LCD, and should bring it to the level of a Pearl as far as native contrast goes. 10X DI seems pretty aggressive, although perhaps they have better AI to control its use and suppress visible artifacts. Even with mild / conservative DI settings this should be fairly impressive.

Another interesting question is whether all the new 3LCD projectors will be using these panels, or if it's Epson exclusive for now. Mitsubishi and Sanyo have advertised very minimal improvements in their new model PJs and I've seen no mention of this improved polarization technique from any of the other manufacturers.

If the other manufacturers aren't using Epson's D7 then They'd have to be using the D6 panels, because I don't recall Sony selling panels to other manufacturers, and no company has spontaneously started manufacturing their own panels out of thin air. At least I'm not aware of any company making their own panels apart from Epson and Sony. I think the modest improvements of the other brands is because they lack the tech apart from the panels, like the special polarizing and other electronic details. I'd be surprised if they are all NOT using D7 lcd panels.
post #43 of 1093
Quote:


Another interesting question is whether all the new 3LCD projectors will be using these panels, or if it's Epson exclusive for now. Mitsubishi and Sanyo have advertised very minimal improvements in their new model PJs and I've seen no mention of this improved polarization technique from any of the other manufacturers.

All 1080p LCD projectors this year are going to use D7 panels. Epson is the only one which will have the dramatic contrast boost, because their trick to boost contrast doesn't involve the basic design of the D7 panels.

D7 panels are not going to provide any dramatic change by themselves.
post #44 of 1093
My understanding is that the D7 panels have a native contrast of 4500 and most of the contrast boost from there is done by their special "trick". I'm anxious to see what the reviewers will say.
post #45 of 1093
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jones_Rush View Post

All 1080p LCD projectors this year are going to use D7 panels. Epson is the only one which will have the dramatic contrast boost, because their trick to boost contrast doesn't involve the basic design of the D7 panels.

D7 panels are not going to provide any dramatic change by themselves.


No, not all:

Mitsubishi ist not using D7 panels in their new models (HC4900,H6000 both are still using D6).

Sanyo, Epson and Panasonic are using D7...

Regards,
Ekkehart
post #46 of 1093
Ok, thanks.
post #47 of 1093
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cine4Home View Post

No, not all:

Mitsubishi ist not using D7 panels in their new models (HC4900,H6000 both are still using D6).

Sanyo, Epson and Panasonic are using D7...

Regards,
Ekkehart

Of all the projectors that would benefit from the D7 panels, the already sharp Mitsubishi would have been a great one to improve. I think now I'm going to be comparing the Epson and the Sanyo the most. As long as the Epson TW2000 is as sharp or sharper than the TW1000 (I hope a little bit sharper) and has good colour uniformity, then I'm thinking the TW2000 is looking like a potentially very strong unit.

Any idea's if Hitachi is out of lcd home theatre projectors for now or for good?
post #48 of 1093
Cine4Home
Is there a D7 projector coming from Panasonic?
post #49 of 1093
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohlson View Post

Is there a D7 projector coming from Panasonic?

Yes !

http://www.cine4home.de/news/PanaAE2000/AE2000news.htm
post #50 of 1093
I am wondering, assuming the huge contrast advantage of TW2000 proves to be real, and the street price of the Epson TW2000, is going to be similar to that of the Pana AE2000/Mits HC6000/Sanyo Z2000, who on earth will not opt for the TW2000 ?

Epson might totally dominate the 1080p LCD market this year, but I wonder if it will not cost them the business relationship with Pana/Mits/Sanyo next year. We might see Pana/Mits/Sanyo partnering with Sony or Texas Instruments, instead of Epson, after this back stabbing move by Epson.

Even if Epson found out they can dramatically boost On/Off CR, aftar it was already too late to offer it to Pana/Mits/Sanyo in order for them to incorporate it in their CEDIA 2007 offerings, I still think Epson should have not introduced their own projector boasting this advantage this year, in order not to hurt Pana/Mits/Sanyo's sales.
post #51 of 1093
Interesting point. It looks to me like over the last year's product cycle Epson has been positioning itself to take a serious run at the HT segment. This early announcement about the 2000 specs, and the fact that they're bolstering their low-end line as well, seems like the challenge is real.

I'd love to hear back what the mood at the 3LCD booth is this year.

Jonathan
post #52 of 1093
Specs being what they are, it all depends on the technical measurements and subjective opinions of those who view and/or buy/test these units. Although it sounds great about these high native contrast specs from the Epson, we'll have to wait and see just how different the Epson will be vs the Sanyo, Panasonic and Mitsubishi. At this point, I do suspect the Epson may be quite impressive and quite a bit better than the rest, but just how much better will be interesting to find out.
post #53 of 1093
Quote:
Originally Posted by rikomatik View Post

Yes !

http://www.cine4home.de/news/PanaAE2000/AE2000news.htm

Mehr Licht

"D7-Panel bedeuten mehr Licht: Die aktuelle Werksangabe bzgl. des PT-AE2000 beläuft sich auf 1500Lumen."

I do not speak German, but this looks good.

IB
post #54 of 1093
For someone who call himself "inky blacks", this is not the line you should be interested in.

This is the one you should pay attention to:
Quote:


- Mehr Kontrast
Durch weitere Verbesserungen im Lichtweg und durch die neue Panelgeneration gibt Panasonic ein Kontrastverhältnis von 16000:1 an.

And in plain english it says: "we haven't incorporated Epson's new trick to dramatically improve contrast, hence you won't have inky blacks".
post #55 of 1093
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cine4Home View Post

No, not all:

Mitsubishi ist not using D7 panels in their new models (HC4900,H6000 both are still using D6).

Sanyo, Epson and Panasonic are using D7...

Regards,
Ekkehart

Hi Ekkehart,

I've been visiting IFA the past two days and have been looking at the EMP-TW2000 quite a lot (boy does Pirates look good in Blu-Ray!). Today I was shocked to see that what seems like a big dust blob has shown up on the screen! Unfortunately I couldn't find any stand personnel to confirm this (I'm almost completely certain it's a dust blob). This made me wonder about the anti-dust measures in the EMP-TW2000 (further I have no idea if Epson has a good track record on anti-dust measures in their past projectors).

Since I guess you gave good contacts with Epson through cine4home could you sort of confirm with them that the EMP-TW2000 at IFA actually has a dust blob and could you ask Epson about the anti-dust measures in the EMP-TW2000? I can understand if you're not willing or able to do this. I will try again tomorrow and see if I can get some Epson personnel to answer my questions about the dust and the projector.

Thanks in advance,

Jan Roel
post #56 of 1093
This is a new record for this forum, quality control issues/projector defects are being reported before the launch of a projector.

JonioR, can you give us a more detailed review of the TW2000's picture quality ?
post #57 of 1093
Quote:
Originally Posted by JunioR View Post

Hi Ekkehart,

Since I guess you gave good contacts with Epson through cine4home could you sort of confirm with them that the EMP-TW2000 at IFA actually has a dust blob and could you ask Epson about the anti-dust measures in the EMP-TW2000? I can understand if you're not willing or able to do this. I will try again tomorrow and see if I can get some Epson personnel to answer my questions about the dust and the projector.

Thanks in advance,

Jan Roel


Ok, I might check that out tomorrow. As it seems, the TW2000 uses the same chassis and therefore the same airfilter like the TW1000/700/680 etc. etc. which looks, in my opinion, not that trustworthy... we already mentioned that in our TW1000 review...

Regards,
Ekkehart
post #58 of 1093
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jones_Rush View Post

This is a new record for this forum, quality control issues/projector defects are being reported before the launch of a projector.

Not to mention someone complaining that a 16,000 to 1 contrast ratio is not good for an LCD projector.

The Panasonic may have some advantages over the Epson in terms of throw ratio flexibility. If there is any light in the room, can you tell the difference between a 16,000 to 1 and 50,000 to 1 contrast ratio?

All the manufacturers seem to be slowly inching toward 2,000 lumens. If they would just install bigger bulbs, they could do it now. Maybe the Japanese have no use for very bright projectors, but Americans do!

IB
post #59 of 1093
Quote:


Not to mention someone complaining that a 16,000 to 1 contrast ratio is not good for an LCD projector.

No, I am comlaining that the Pana will probably have less than 2000:1 On/Off native contrast, while the Epson will have 4500:1.

Quote:


The Panasonic may have some advantages over the Epson in terms of throw ratio flexibility. If there is any light in the room, can you tell the difference between a 16,000 to 1 and 50,000 to 1 contrast ratio?

Probably not, but why watch with any light ?
post #60 of 1093
If the Panasonic is using D7 panels, why would it have lower native contrast than the Epson?

There is something to what you say, with a native contrast of what? 1200:1, manufacturers were claiming 10,000:1 to 12,000:1 dynamic contrast ratios. If the native contrast shot up to ~4500:1, why such a modest boost in dynamic CR? I hope its because it means they're trying to cut back on the DI artifacts, rather than because they have some 2nd rate D7 panel with lower native CR than the one Epson has for themselves.
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