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Official Samsung 81 Series LNT-xx81f Owner's Thread Part II - Page 3

post #61 of 2241
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnnybrulez View Post

300 comparison shot. Bare with me.

Samsung 4681:

Samsung 3251D:

Anyone else convinced black levels are overatted?

Are both those sets displaying the same source?

I don't see the PS3 Blu-ray pause icon on the 3251 shot.

But that first shot is amazing nonetheless. Thanks for posting it.
post #62 of 2241
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elemental1 View Post

Well..I realize the camera and your picture taking skills are distorting the reality a bit but I'm not really impressed by the pics.
They both look horrible.
But yes, I do see the black potential there in the 81 series.

Edit: I am checking it on mine using DvD version to see if I am being too harsh. Is that HD-DvD source with those pics, btw?


Those pics are ONLY good for comparing black levels in his 32" vs the 81, nothing more. Dont even try to pick those apart from a PQ standpoint, a useless endeavor. Johnny has already admitted to atrocious picture taking abilities, and we know the camera isn't going to show us what he sees.
post #63 of 2241
Quote:
Originally Posted by vtms View Post

With that, I would like to ask you if you could feed your 81 this test pattern.
http://www.walvisions.com/PattPages/...64_pattern.htm
Can you discern all the shades? Thanks for your input.

That's a really nice test pattern! It's good for the dark stuff. There needs to be a similar pattern for the top 64 levels too, 192 to 255, to calibrate for white crush.

When I had my Sharp D62 for a brief time last year before returning it because of (no points for guessing) banding, the way I calibrated it was to hook up a PC via hdmi and show greyscale gradients from 0 to 255, similar to these test patterns here, and mess with settings until I had the blackest black I could get yet still see the 1 or 2 level so that blacks aren't crushed, and also adjust so that the whites aren't crushed either.

What I found to be a common response to settings on both my Sharp and on the assortment of Sony XBR's we have at work is to first calibrate for black level and black crush using the Brightness setting. Once that's done, adjust Contrast (or Picture as Sony seems to think it should be called) until the white crush is gone. Contrast adjustment doesn't seem to affect the black level setting, but adjusting Brightness does mess with the white level setting.

Once those two ends of the ranges are set, then mess with Gamma to get the "feel" of the greys from being too bright or dark to just right. Gamma should not interfere with your carefully tuned black or white level if they've done it right.

I use this same technique on my Dell 2405 and 2407 monitors here at work and at home, and it works well. For instance I have the blackest black I can get out the things and I can distinctly see all 64 shades in vtms's example image here.

For those who have the sets so far it seems your methods for calibrating is more of just eyeballing stuff and wondering. I'd be curious if calibrations made to show a full 0-255 levels will reveal if the set really does have black or white crush and can be made to truly show everything in the image.

Another thing to realise about black levels is that not all source material is really black. When I tune my stuff for black then start watching movies I realised that some movies actually have blacks that are level 0, but a lot of material the "blacks" aren't 0, they're perhaps 3, or 5. So if you tune your black levels based on one of those movies/dvds/whatever then you're going to have black crush on other darker material. So if you have your TV tuned right some stuff simply is going to have slightly grey blacks, because that's how they made the DVD encode. So you either deliberately introduce black crush or put up with some stuff that's a little on the grey side of black.

You guys with the 81s I applaud your efforts in sharing your findings with us Keep up the good work! I may only post once per thousand years, but I'm definitely here reading your comments.
post #64 of 2241
The 81s sound like a beast to calibrate. It doesn't help that the manual falls far short in explaining exactly what all the standard adjustments are doing. Perhaps we could all help each other out by trying to figure what each setting exactly adjusts on the 81. I know it is difficult because most of the settings interact with each other.

Current info is that I will be getting the LN-T4081 sometime tomorrow. I will be glad to help out in the calibration efforts.
post #65 of 2241
Quote:
Originally Posted by LaserEdge View Post

The 81s sound like a beast to calibrate. It doesn't help that the manual falls far short in explaining exactly what all the standard adjustments are doing. Perhaps we could all help each other out by trying to figure what each setting exactly adjusts on the 81. I know it is difficult because most of the settings interact with each other.

Current info is that I will be getting the LN-T4081 sometime tomorrow. I will be glad to help out in the calibration efforts.

Here is a link to the Official 81 Settings and Issues thread. It was just created yesterday, so that owners can pool their settings and tweaks solutions, and also new owners can seek advise on any issues they are wrestling with.


http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=899465
post #66 of 2241
Quote:
Originally Posted by pelowell View Post

Those pics are ONLY good for comparing black levels in his 32" vs the 81, nothing more. Dont even try to pick those apart from a PQ standpoint, a useless endeavor. Johnny has already admitted to atrocious picture taking abilities, and we know the camera isn't going to show us what he sees.

I was just confirming for my own reference what the sources were, that's all.
post #67 of 2241
Quote:
Originally Posted by pelowell View Post

Those pics are ONLY good for comparing black levels in his 32" vs the 81, nothing more. Dont even try to pick those apart from a PQ standpoint, a useless endeavor. Johnny has already admitted to atrocious picture taking abilities, and we know the camera isn't going to show us what he sees.

Thanks for that but I want to hear from Johnny.
I can understand him perfectly well without a translator.
post #68 of 2241
Are ALL the 81F's having a problem when the LED is on..does every 81F get those white squares in dark scenes?
What good things are there about the 81F TV's?
post #69 of 2241
I don't have my LNT-5281F yet, but I ordered it last week from Vann's, having seen the prototype at CES earlier in the year.

I have to admit I was pretty spooked by the barrage of negativity at the previous 81 series owner's site, mostly by advocates for plasma TV. I have also been concerned about the "gloss" factor. I realize we can't make Samsung do anything and have to live w/whatever is out there.

The question is, should I cancel my LNT-5281F and instead get the 4661-F and then wait for a matte version of the 81 series? I won't consider a plasma set, period.

I like to watch TV in the late afternoon and at night. Being on the West Coast, we are often forced to watch night time events on east coast time when there is still lot of daylight here - thinks the world series.

The choice between Samsung's LCDs and plasmas in the store is no contest for me. I love the LCDs and their brightness and I thinks Samsungs are the best. Looking at the 4661 and 4665 next to eachother, I would choose the 4661 any day. These sets were already phenomenal and are considered the best LCDs ever by CNET's ace reviewer, Dave Katzmaier. The 81 series is two technolgical leaps up from them, the 71 series being the intermediate leap. I emailed Mr. Katzmaier about the 81 series and he is going to write a review of it one of these days. Recall he like the 4665, but hated the gloss.

The drawbacks on the 61/65 are blacks, motion, (gloss on the 65) and some technical wizardy, to be somewhat simplistic/reductionst. Most of these issues are addressed in the 81 series tho it is still unclear whether the smart lighting and other features are an equally effective way of handling motion artifacts in sports. Are they?

Right now I own a 32" Sony XBR CRT TV and it has the normal amout of glare of any CRT. There is not way I could ever watch that TV while the sun is shining in the room. I invariably close the curtains to increase the contrast and get rid of the shadows.

So having listened to my concerns/angst, should I take delivery on the 5281 or cancel it and get the 4661 and wait for some unspecified matte, local dimming model of the 81 series w/120 hz?

Thanks for any help the owners of these TVs can give me!!
post #70 of 2241
Quote:
Originally Posted by rickbbb View Post

Are ALL the 81F's having a problem when the LED is on..does every 81F get those white squares in dark scenes?
What good things are there about the 81F TV's?

It is way too early to declare it a problem. Very few people actually own one yet, and it has not yet been determined if there may not be some user setting modes that will be able to establish a mostly acceptable solution. Give it a few weeks to allow the owner pool to grow, and let the first adopters experiment with ways to optimize the various settings options.
post #71 of 2241
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elemental1 View Post

Well..I realize the camera and your picture taking skills are distorting the reality a bit but I'm not really impressed by the pics.
They both look horrible.
But yes, I do see the black potential there in the 81 series.

Edit: I am checking it on mine using DvD version to see if I am being too harsh. Is that HD-DvD source with those pics, btw?

It's alot better in person. Really. I suck at photography. If there was an anti-phototaker it would be me. What's funny was at home on my crappy LCD it looks okay. On my pro Mac monitor it looks like ass. Blacks are pretty accurate to what you'd get, but it looks better in house. Especially that scene on both TVs.

3251D has 360 HD-DVD

4681 has PS3 Blu-Ray

Both sources look THE SAME. Don't bring that war into this thread.
post #72 of 2241
Quote:
Originally Posted by rickbbb View Post

Are ALL the 81F's having a problem when the LED is on..does every 81F get those white squares in dark scenes?
What good things are there about the 81F TV's?

Again, you don't really see the squares in normal viewing. What you see at worst is a slight "glow", similar to what you see in sets that have backlight "pillars". For the examples I gave, it was very difficult to see the glow and I had to crank the set outside of normal usage to get it consistently. Crank any TV outside of normal operating parameters and you're going to see some sort of anomaly.

The main probablem is that it just results in a loss of black levels in scenes of average exposure. Unless you have really really dark blacks in some part of the screen the effectiveness of the LED Smart Lighting is minimal. For movies with dramatic lighting it works pretty well. For TV broadcasts of sitcoms, sports, etc. you're not going to see as big a difference between an 81 and a "normal" LCD-TV in terms of black levels.
post #73 of 2241
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnnybrulez View Post

It's alot better in person. Really. I suck at photography. If there was an anti-phototaker it would be me. What's funny was at home on my crappy LCD it looks okay. On my pro Mac monitor it looks like ass. Blacks are pretty accurate to what you'd get, but it looks better in house. Especially that scene on both TVs.

3251D has 360 HD-DVD

4681 has PS3 Blu-Ray

Both sources look THE SAME. Don't bring that war into this thread.

I believe you.
Ah...so different sources eh sneaky one.
What's wrong, afraid of a format war breaking out in here.
BAck to the pics....I guess it might be the noise that is bothering me. Is that noise I see or just the camera?
My DvD/Plasma looks cleaner it seems but I'm not sure if I have all that detail.
post #74 of 2241
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elemental1 View Post

I believe you.
Ah...so different sources eh sneaky one.
What's wrong, afraid of a format war breaking out in here.
BAck to the pics....I guess it might be the noise that is bothering me. Is that noise I see or just the camera?
My DvD/Plasma looks cleaner it seems but I'm not sure if I have all that detail.

Yes I am afraid of that. And no, the noise you see there is mostly camera related. Also 300 has alot of film grain in it so that can attribute. But this is mainly why I don't take pictures. A bad photographer can make the best display look awesome, a good photographer can make a lesser display look better. How is that fair for the potential buyer?

I just wanted to show off the black level differences. If I crush black on the 81, you can get even darker than that.

BTW, anyone with a professionally calibrated set w/ a 300 HD-DVD or Blu-Ray source?
post #75 of 2241
How sharp is the high definition when viewing a picture on the 81F? Is it just as sharp as any other high definition tv or sharper?
post #76 of 2241
Quote:
Originally Posted by rickbbb View Post

How sharp is the high definition when viewing a picture on the 81F? Is it just as sharp as any other high definition tv or sharper?

I have been wondering the same thing. From the screenshots it does not look as sharp as other samsungs or even the new xbr's.
post #77 of 2241
Quote:
Originally Posted by taco2004 View Post

I have been wondering the same thing. From the screenshots it does not look as sharp as other samsungs or even the new xbr's.

My shots or others?

Oi, sharpjunkie. I think the photographs were bad idea. Hi-Def looks good. Besides the colors, I'm content with overall detail. Any more of this "it doesn't look good" and those pics are going down anyway. I'll leave it at black screen comparison. Not fair at all.
post #78 of 2241
Are the white small squares in dark screen usually located in the corners of the tv picture..also,are ALL 81F's having this problem.Also,has anyone here watched a blue ray dvd on this tv yet?
post #79 of 2241
Quote:
Originally Posted by rickbbb View Post

Are the white small squares in dark screen usually located in the corners of the tv picture..also,are ALL 81F's having this problem.Also,has anyone here watched a blue ray dvd on this tv yet?

That '300' with the pics on the 81 is a BRD.
post #80 of 2241
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnnybrulez View Post

My shots or others?

Oi, sharpjunkie. I think the photographs were bad idea. Hi-Def looks good. Besides the colors, I'm content with overall detail. Any more of this "it doesn't look good" and those pics are going down anyway. I'll leave it at black screen comparison. Not fair at all.

Johnny,

Forgive me if you have already covered this, and I missed it. Have you done any extended viewing of regular HDTV on the 81 during daylight conditions, with perhaps drapes or blinds closed, and at night with some light, such as a bias lamp on. If you have, can you share your thoughts on what you felt about how the set looked in those settings. Also, have you noticed any glass reflections issues in any of those conditions?.
post #81 of 2241
Johnny,

I am sure Greenland has a lamp or two if you need them.
I hear they are Italian.
post #82 of 2241
Quote:
Originally Posted by rickbbb View Post

Are the white small squares in dark screen usually located in the corners of the tv picture..also,are ALL 81F's having this problem.Also,has anyone here watched a blue ray dvd on this tv yet?

This "problem" isn't really a problem, it's just how the technology works. The example is a totally impractical example to show how the LD (local dimming) works. On a normal, non-Locally Dimmed set the entire screen would be glowing. What it's really showing is that the set can do black levels in conditions where a normal LCD-TV cannot.

Oh, and it's showing that using a mouse cursor to re-arrange your collection of coal on your pitch-black desktop is probably going to yield a few LD-based anomolies.

In other words, relax. It's just an extreme test which, predictably, shows an extreme result.
post #83 of 2241
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elemental1 View Post

Johnny,

I am sure Greenland has a lamp or two if you need them.
I hear they are Italian.

Only if he knows the name of the Lone Ranger's nephew's horse!.
post #84 of 2241
Quote:
Originally Posted by rickbbb View Post

Are the white small squares in dark screen usually located in the corners of the tv picture..also,are ALL 81F's having this problem.Also,has anyone here watched a blue ray dvd on this tv yet?

You're worrying a bit much about something you'll never see. It would be like me driving my new BMW into a tree and then saying, "Holy **** look what happens to a BMW's hood when you drive it!"
post #85 of 2241
My dad is about to purchase this set...

I was just wondering after reading an article in Sound and Vision, they mention a list price($4800)

Since this is a consumer mag,
post #86 of 2241
Is the gamma function something on the menu of the tv anyone can adjust or does a professional calibrator have to get inside the tv to adjust it on the 81F's?
post #87 of 2241
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnnybrulez View Post

My shots or others?

Oi, sharpjunkie. I think the photographs were bad idea. Hi-Def looks good. Besides the colors, I'm content with overall detail. Any more of this "it doesn't look good" and those pics are going down anyway. I'll leave it at black screen comparison. Not fair at all.


I was referring to sharpjunkie's pics that were compared to a 71, XBR4 and 177. To me the colors were great but the image was not as sharp as the others. Maybe it was the settings but the other three tv's looked sharp as a tack.

I am currently looking to replace my 4 year old 23" sony lcd and am very interested in the current Sony and Samsung tv's. I plan to go to BB and CC this weekend to take a look that them.
post #88 of 2241
Quote:
Originally Posted by greenland View Post

Johnny,

Forgive me if you have already covered this, and I missed it. Have you done any extended viewing of regular HDTV on the 81 during daylight conditions, with perhaps drapes or blinds closed, and at night with some light, such as a bias lamp on. If you have, can you share your thoughts on what you felt about how the set looked in those settings. Also, have you noticed any glass reflections issues in any of those conditions?.

I just took a bunch of pictures at roughly about 3:00pm pacific time so it's pretty bright right now. I have a sliding door to my left as you can see in the pic below. It is actually very bright in the room.. it looks dark closer to the tv only because the brightness of the curtains is overpowering the camera.


You can see the corner of my old 32" CRT still sitting there, haven't gotten around to moving it yet :P

This is what is facing just opposite of the tv. As you can see there are more light sources from up high, although at that angle those windows don't cause glare unless i slouch:



Now here are some shots for you guys to view some sharpness and glare:





In that last pic you can see my reflection in the guys' suit.

I don't generally watch movies during the daytime but it is definitely doable to me. Yes there is some glare but it is not that bad in my situation.
post #89 of 2241
I'm happy you explained that to me.So,I guess I'll accept the delivery of this tv.Am looking forward to it now.

What feature of this tv do you enjoy the most?
post #90 of 2241
does anyone know where i can find a 81 series in iowa

we dont have any mag bby and american isnt selling them

thanks.
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