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Industry Insiders Master Q&A thread IV: ONLY Questions to Insiders - Page 104  

post #3091 of 4687
Quote:
Originally Posted by vsv View Post

Any news about december's firmware update for HD DVD players to support 25p/50p content on disc ?

SOURCE: From December, all HD players will be able to replay 50p.

The Xbox has been able to do this since Day 1, however for 50Hz content it actually emits a 60Hz signal, which is not the perfect solution for users with 50Hz displays (though its not as bad as it sounds as the Euro HDTV spec requires 60Hz signals be accepted).

50Hz playback support is optional for 60Hz players per the HD DVD spec, and I don't know Toshiba's plans in this area for their US players. As an A1-owning Englishman I would personally like to see 50Hz support (and on legacy DVD playback too) so I could retire another DVD player from my rack.

50Hz content is ideal for PAL TV originated sources, but offers no advantage for movies which are 24p of course.
post #3092 of 4687
Quote:
Originally Posted by Talkstr8t View Post

Nonetheless, I agree that it's unlikely the "HDi" implementation (what's the correct non-trademarked term for this?!?) is written in Java.

I personally use CAT2 as the generic term, as Advanced Content, while technically accurate, is too hard to type (as is Category 2 Content).
post #3093 of 4687
Quote:
Originally Posted by salacious View Post

Thanks Roger. When people claim that TrueHD has a hidden DD track on Blu-Ray is this them just mis-understanding the mandatory/optional audio codecs or is it packaging error?

I'm not sure what people mean by "hidden," but it is certainly correct that a TrueHD stream is packaged together with a DD companion as a format requirement. Maybe it's hidden by the packaging or audio menus.
post #3094 of 4687
How does the picture information get sent from an HD-DVD/Blu-ray player to an LCD/Plasma HDTV through the HDMI (or DVI) connection?

Is there a clock on both devices? Is there a piece of code on the player (interrupt driven or in a loop) that passes a new uncompressed image down HDMI every time a timer reaches a certain value (eg. multiple of 1 second div 23.976/25/30 etc.)? Will the clocks in the player and TV not always be in perfect sync or does the TV take the exact timing from the player? Is it a hardware chip in the player that is partially responsible for limitations in frame rates/resolutions or is it partially the software or both? With firmware updates on players could all frame rates and resolutions be possible (even English ones) subject to bandwidth limitations (or is a chip inside stopping this)?

What makes a TV specifically need a 24p capability in the specification/firmware/hardware - I mean if a TV can do 50P/60P why couldn't it also switch to a lower rate automatically if that was being sent by the player? Why still use 23.976 for digital high definition 24p? I thought that was for 3:2 pulldown or something - for proper 24p don't/can't the TVs display an exact multiple of 24?
post #3095 of 4687
Sales talk is only allowed in sales threads.
post #3096 of 4687
Any HD-DVD insiders,

Are vudu HD downloads same encodes as HD-DVD (Paramount & Universal are only studios to allow HD vudu downloads)?

Thanks.
post #3097 of 4687
Quote:
Originally Posted by desmond212 View Post

Any HD-DVD insiders,

Are vudu HD downloads same encodes as HD-DVD (Paramount & Universal are only studios to allow HD vudu downloads)?

Thanks.

Seeing how Xbox Marketplace downloads are not based on HD DVD, you can imagine the same is true of Vudu. The toolset for HD DVD/BD generates specialized files that are only useful for those formats today.

I hve not yet unpacked my Vudu but can do a comparison to be sure, time permitting.

By the way, they say that they have a 250 gigabyte hard disk that holds 100 hours of cotent. That means 2.5 gigabytes per hour which is equal to 6 mbit/sec from memory. With HD DVD content, they would be able to hold a lot less.
post #3098 of 4687
hd dvd and bd insiders:

is there anything that would prohibit a player from using networked storage as persistent storage (or binding unit data area as it is termed in bd spec) such as the hd dvd, bd, aacs, etc. specs that govern?
post #3099 of 4687
talkstr8t:

re the grace period for profile 1.0, v. 1.1.0 conformity, in the recent situation with the samsung bd-up5000 dual format player, since it didn't actually ship to consumers until mid-dec '07 i would expect that this player, in order to conform, would have to be profile 1.0, v1.1.0 compliant...

here is the twist and my question, apparently samsung shipped a handful of "pre-production" units to professional reviewers (sound&vision, gizmodo and engadgethd come to mind...) some time starting in mid-September I believe...

in this instance, have they complied with the "designed, manufactured AND shipped" language and therefore are NOT required to be profile 1.0, v1.1.0 compliant?
post #3100 of 4687
Hi Amir and Andy,

I just recently purchased an HD-D3 (for $99cdn on Boxing Day; I'm okay with 1080i ) and noticed in the Persistent Storage manager that Transformers and Shrek both had labels for their content (and even graphics!), which I thought was pretty cool.

My question is about the 360's HD-DVD addon that I also own. I know that it says "Unknown Title" in the memory manager, but checked it yesterday and noticed that one of the many items had a "Transformers" title! Thinking that maybe this was fixed in the recent firmware, I just deleted all items and thought I'd reload Transformers, and it went right back to "Unknown Title".

Is there any reason why my Transformers content actually got labelled and is there a reason why you can't pull title info the way the Toshiba players do?

P.S. I was a bit surprised of the load-up times for the HD-D3 after using the 360's addon for so long. The 360 HD-DVD is much more responsive, almost like a regular DVD player. Also, I was impressed that I could make out out no real differences in PQ between my 2 players when displayed on my 100" Optoma 720p projected screen. Good job!
post #3101 of 4687
Amir and Andy, are you going to the CES 2008 Show next week? And if you are, will you please send me all the freebies they hand out.
post #3102 of 4687
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZaZeeMan View Post

Hi Amir and Andy,

I just recently purchased an HD-D3 (for $99cdn on Boxing Day; I'm okay with 1080i ) and noticed in the Persistent Storage manager that Transformers and Shrek both had labels for their content (and even graphics!), which I thought was pretty cool.

My question is about the 360's HD-DVD addon that I also own. I know that it says "Unknown Title" in the memory manager, but checked it yesterday and noticed that one of the many items had a "Transformers" title! Thinking that maybe this was fixed in the recent firmware, I just deleted all items and thought I'd reload Transformers, and it went right back to "Unknown Title".

Is there any reason why my Transformers content actually got labelled and is there a reason why you can't pull title info the way the Toshiba players do?

P.S. I was a bit surprised of the load-up times for the HD-D3 after using the 360's addon for so long. The 360 HD-DVD is much more responsive, almost like a regular DVD player. Also, I was impressed that I could make out out no real differences in PQ between my 2 players when displayed on my 100" Optoma 720p projected screen. Good job!

The problem with labelled content on the Xbox is a result of a spec misinterpretation: the spec says content can be labelled with text OR with a bitmap. Unfortunately when the Xbox code was written it it was read as AND so the assumption was that just reading the text was sufficient: it was not. The bulk of US titles only write the info as a bitmap, which the Xbox cannot display. Euro titles have always done both, and the very latest US titles are doing so too. The Xbox code for this lives in the Dashboard so getting it changed is a lot harder than if the code was in the Player.

Transformers label "changed" probably because the title code in the update wrote out text, whereas the original code just wrote out a bitmap.

The Xbox horsepower helps its load times considerably and Xbox PQ is among the best, as you have seen. Thanks!
post #3103 of 4687
Quote:
Originally Posted by romper View Post

Amir and Andy, are you going to the CES 2008 Show next week? And if you are, will you please send me all the freebies they hand out.

Hehe. I'm not going this year, sorry. I'll miss the freebies too
post #3104 of 4687
Quote:
Originally Posted by BenDover View Post

hd dvd and bd insiders:

is there anything that would prohibit a player from using networked storage as persistent storage (or binding unit data area as it is termed in bd spec) such as the hd dvd, bd, aacs, etc. specs that govern?

I don't believe there is a prohibition, but the problem is (at least for A/V) you need to support the same bandwidth as local media, which would likely be trickly unless you had at a minimum 100Mbit with a server capable of supporting the full bandwidth.
post #3105 of 4687
Quote:
Originally Posted by BenDover View Post

re the grace period for profile 1.0, v. 1.1.0 conformity, in the recent situation with the samsung bd-up5000 dual format player, since it didn't actually ship to consumers until mid-dec '07 i would expect that this player, in order to conform, would have to be profile 1.0, v1.1.0 compliant...

here is the twist and my question, apparently samsung shipped a handful of "pre-production" units to professional reviewers (sound&vision, gizmodo and engadgethd come to mind...) some time starting in mid-September I believe...

in this instance, have they complied with the "designed, manufactured AND shipped" language and therefore are NOT required to be profile 1.0, v1.1.0 compliant?

I have not studied the FLLA (Format License and Logo Agreement) sufficiently to determine the exact trigger for the grace period. Player manufacturers also have an opportunity to correct non-compliant players within a specific time period, so even if the player is required to be compliant but wasn't at ship presumably they can correct that via a firmware update. If they don't reach compliance within the required time period (something like 90 days) then it might be considered a non-compliant player, in which case there are a variety of remedies available to the BDA for ensuring future players are compliant.

I might also point out that this may well be a good example of the risks inherent in dual-format players; in spite of the assertions by some here that making a dual-format player should be only slightly more complex than a single-format player, I don't think we've yet seen a dual-format player, with overall performance comparable to that of standalone players for either format, let alone one price-competitive with buying two standalones.
post #3106 of 4687
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy Pennell View Post

The problem with labelled content on the Xbox is a result of a spec misinterpretation: the spec says content can be labelled with text OR with a bitmap. Unfortunately when the Xbox code was written it it was read as AND so the assumption was that just reading the text was sufficient: it was not. The bulk of US titles only write the info as a bitmap, which the Xbox cannot display. Euro titles have always done both, and the very latest US titles are doing so too. The Xbox code for this lives in the Dashboard so getting it changed is a lot harder than if the code was in the Player.

Transformers label "changed" probably because the title code in the update wrote out text, whereas the original code just wrote out a bitmap.

The Xbox horsepower helps its load times considerably and Xbox PQ is among the best, as you have seen. Thanks!

Thanks for the info. I went in and looked back at the persistent storage on the HD-D3 and, as you said, it was all bitmaps. Could you make some sort of Persistent Storage custom interface from within the HD-DVD's in-movie menus? Or would it still have to be a code update in the dashboard?
post #3107 of 4687
Quote:
Originally Posted by Talkstr8t View Post

I have not studied the FLLA (Format License and Logo Agreement) sufficiently to determine the exact trigger for the grace period. Player manufacturers also have an opportunity to correct non-compliant players within a specific time period, so even if the player is required to be compliant but wasn't at ship presumably they can correct that via a firmware update. If they don't reach compliance within the required time period (something like 90 days) then it might be considered a non-compliant player, in which case there are a variety of remedies available to the BDA for ensuring future players are compliant.

I might also point out that this may well be a good example of the risks inherent in dual-format players; in spite of the assertions by some here that making a dual-format player should be only slightly more complex than a single-format player, I don't think we've yet seen a dual-format player, with overall performance comparable to that of standalone players for either format, let alone one price-competitive with buying two standalones.

thanks talk...

wrt the latter part of your post, i have to say that the samsung bd-up5000 is in fact an example of a great dual format player in contrast to your view...

the player works great...the only thing i am trying to figure out is if they will be required to make it 1.1 compliant based on either their pre-production shipments or their actual shipments into retail...

the samsung 5k, imo, truly is a great solution to the problem consumers face today...it has some upgrades that are presumably forthcoming that could make it the most complete solution on both sides to date...
post #3108 of 4687
Quote:
Originally Posted by Talkstr8t View Post

I don't believe there is a prohibition, but the problem is (at least for A/V) you need to support the same bandwidth as local media, which would likely be trickly unless you had at a minimum 100Mbit with a server capable of supporting the full bandwidth.

at least on the bd side, the performance requirement is 16Mbs minimum (level 1) with 32 and 48 Mbs as optional (levels 2 and 3, respectively)...so i would imagine if there are no other restrictions, bandwidth really shouldn't be an issue for wired and/or wireless network (802.11a, g, n, etc. ... i guess 802.11b wouldn't cut it...)
post #3109 of 4687
Ammir,
Talkstr8t,
Andy Ponnell,

I always assume that the PiP video was recorded on a separate track however I just realized that the laser pick-up cannot read two tracks at the same time. So my question is how is real PiP encoded on Blu-ray/HD-DVD and how do player decode it?
post #3110 of 4687
Quote:
Originally Posted by rveras View Post

Ammir,
Talkstr8t,
Andy Ponnell,

I always assume that the PiP video was recorded on a separate track however I just realized that the laser pick-up cannot read two tracks at the same time. So my question is how is real PiP encoded on Blu-ray/HD-DVD and how do player decode it?

In HD DVD, PiP is always resident, interleved with the main track. The player simply chooses to ignore it if you don't have PiP on. Yeh, pretty restrictive mechanism but per my earlier post, CE drives don't like seeking so we have to put things together. In a computer, we could have them seperate on hard disk as you were assuming as seeks are very fast and we can buffer to memory.
post #3111 of 4687
Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post

In HD DVD, PiP is always resident, interleved with the main track. The player simply chooses to ignore it if you don't have PiP on. Yeh, pretty restrictive mechanism but per my earlier post, CE drives don't like seeking so we have to put things together. In a computer, we could have them seperate on hard disk as you were assuming as seeks are very fast and we can buffer to memory.

Thanks. Are different audio tracks done the same way?


P.S. Sorry I misspell your name
post #3112 of 4687
Quote:
Originally Posted by rveras View Post

Thanks. Are different audio tracks done the same way?

Sadly yes.


Quote:


P.S. Sorry I misspell your name

Oh, I didn't even notice .
post #3113 of 4687
Tom (Broadcom),

can you comment on the BCM7440 in the Samsung BD-UP5000 unit ... is Samsung awaiting Broadcom to properly enable HDMI bitstream audio output support or is this actually Samsung's responsibility?
post #3114 of 4687
Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post

Sadly yes.



Oh, I didn't even notice .

Why don't you like the interleaved method?
post #3115 of 4687
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZaZeeMan View Post

Thanks for the info. I went in and looked back at the persistent storage on the HD-D3 and, as you said, it was all bitmaps. Could you make some sort of Persistent Storage custom interface from within the HD-DVD's in-movie menus? Or would it still have to be a code update in the dashboard?

Great idea but would only be of limited utility: titles can only get to the pstorage they own, as well as those of their studio: titles are prevented from partying on content from other studios.

I hope one day we can fix the Xbox code to display bitmaps, and even the raw guids if there is no information at all (titles and studio pstorage are really directories with guids as names). At least you could have some way of telling them apart.
post #3116 of 4687
Quote:
Originally Posted by rveras View Post

Why don't you like the interleaved method?

Because you waste bandwidth. For example, if you have six langauges, you have to allow bandwidth for all even though you only listen to one language at a time. In other words, the system is designed around worst-case scenario, not typical. It is a fact of life for CE-type products but it is a pain to step backward, after getting used to luxuries of what we get in a PC or hard disk based system.

Those people who think optical is superior to digital distribution, take note!
post #3117 of 4687
Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post

Because you waste bandwidth. For example, if you have six langauges, you have to allow bandwidth for all even though you only listen to one language at a time. In other words, the system is designed around worst-case scenario, not typical. It is a fact of life for CE-type products but it is a pain to step backward, after getting used to luxuries of what we get in a PC or hard disk based system.

Those people who think optical is superior to digital distribution, take note!

Quote:


Those people who think optical is superior to digital distribution, take note!

Does this mean that HD-DVD optical is no longer "good enough"?
post #3118 of 4687
Quote:
Originally Posted by whippersnapper View Post

Does this mean that HD-DVD optical is no longer "good enough"?

Hehe .

Unfortunately, BD system suffers from the same limitation. Both formats are designed for worst case scenarios. So in that respect, neither is "good enough" . Here are the other areas neither is good enough:

1. 4:2:0 encoding of video.

2. 8-bit video.

3. Limited color gamut.

4. Not very extensible. At least not easily anyway. Look at how Apple itunes went from audio to video.

5. No way to take advantage of advances in video compression (ala DVD).

6. Limited ways to do 3-D video.

7. Lead time from replication to consumer delivery.

8. Fragile media. You can sit on your hard disk and nothing happens .

9. Requires a motor to spin the disc. Some day people look at that the same way they the think of VHS tape!

10. There must be a tenth but I am running out of lame jokes to get back at you .

My favorite saying is that to love something, you really need to know its limitations When I wrote my book on Unix operating system, the intro is full of criticism of said operating system even though I think it was one of the most elegant pieces of software ever invented (for those of you new to computing space, Linux is a clone of Unix). Likewise, as much as I love HD optical formats, I am well aware of the fact that there is more we can do.
post #3119 of 4687
Amir, it almost sounds as you are talking about optical media as "old" technology. Are you saying the only way to stay at the cutting edge is digital distribution of media? For Microsoft ths would seem to be their agenda.
post #3120 of 4687
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZaZeeMan View Post

Quote:


Originally Posted by Andy Pennell
The problem with labelled content on the Xbox is a result of a spec misinterpretation: the spec says content can be labelled with text OR with a bitmap. Unfortunately when the Xbox code was written it it was read as AND so the assumption was that just reading the text was sufficient: it was not. The bulk of US titles only write the info as a bitmap, which the Xbox cannot display. Euro titles have always done both, and the very latest US titles are doing so too. The Xbox code for this lives in the Dashboard so getting it changed is a lot harder than if the code was in the Player.


Thanks for the info. I went in and looked back at the persistent storage on the HD-D3 and, as you said, it was all bitmaps. Could you make some sort of Persistent Storage custom interface from within the HD-DVD's in-movie menus? Or would it still have to be a code update in the dashboard?

How about a layer of utility code that came up only on a hotkey combination during boot up of an hd dvd, ala Window's 'safe mode'?
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