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Industry Insiders Master Q&A thread IV: ONLY Questions to Insiders - Page 127  

post #3781 of 4687
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Heytow View Post

Please note I added a little smiley on my post. I never intended the A2 to be my last player and will go up to $700 for my next which I was already planning when this started to unravel. I would like my next one to be my last one so I want everything on it I reasonably can get. Suspect a lot of HDDVD folks have similar views so higher end complete spec machines will be particularly important to us. The new Panny could bring alot of us over real quick.

I can't afford an expensive player though. Hence the reasonably priced PC combo drive or hope for something for the Xbox360 that will cost the same as the current HD DVD add-on. Why should I pay more for a Blu-Ray player than an HD DVD player? (If anyone says a bit more space and bandwith I'll slap 'em, lol!)
post #3782 of 4687
Quote:
Originally Posted by Corellianrogue View Post

I can't afford an expensive player though. Hence the reasonably priced PC combo drive or hope for something for the Xbox360 that will cost the same as the current HD DVD add-on. Why should I pay more for a Blu-Ray player than an HD DVD player? (If anyone says a bit more space and bandwith I'll slap 'em, lol!)

The simple answer is to wait.

If you can't afford something, wait unitl you can, you don't need Blu-ray...

People did it for DVD, I can't see why Blu-ray should be any different.
post #3783 of 4687
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maxpower1987 View Post

I don't know where you guys get this stuff from.

Toshiba make very little money on HD DVD hardware and no profit on disc sales. The proceeds from discs sold at retail go to the studios, not any hardware manufacturers. The studios will then pay royalties on those discs, but the hardware manufacturers will never make anything directly from people buying discs in stores.

No, hardware prices on the Blu-ray side haven't fallen because making a Blu-ray player didn't suddenly cost nothing...

Hmm that sound a bit dubious concidering the article below:

http://www.nytimes.com/paidcontent/P...ref=technology

"Toshiba plans to cut the retail price for its HD DVD titles at $31.74 - about $2 less than Blu-ray's suggested price. Toshiba also has been lowering the price of its players, offering a basic player for $299. "

How is it that Toshiba is able to set MSRP on the Disk if the situation is how you say?
post #3784 of 4687
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maxpower1987 View Post

I don't know where you guys get this stuff from.

Toshiba make very little money on HD DVD hardware and no profit on disc sales. The proceeds from discs sold at retail go to the studios, not any hardware manufacturers. The studios will then pay royalties on those discs, but the hardware manufacturers will never make anything directly from people buying discs in stores.

No, hardware prices on the Blu-ray side haven't fallen because making a Blu-ray player didn't suddenly cost nothing...

So now you're saying Toshiba DOESN'T subsidize their players, but make very little profit? Are you going to stay with that statement now, or are you going to flip back again?
post #3785 of 4687
Okay, since I notice that TL51 has been stated as a fact a few times in this thread is there any evidence that TL51 is a required capability on stand alone HD DVD players? Also did Toshiba ever prove that TL51 could work on all of their current stand alone HD DVD players?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Vaughn View Post

Max and I can agree 100% on this. Even from my inside contacts with the HD DVD group have admitted that the chances that TL51 discs ever saw the light of day was very slim. The studios saw no need for the extra space. Also, the yields would have been VERY poor. I know Amir has stated that they would have been better than BD50's, but I don't think that would have been the case at all.

Just curious but what were the yields for TL51?
post #3786 of 4687
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rigby Reardon View Post

This seems like a very euphemistic way to describe it. From what we can tell from the various leaks, BD+ "advanced countermeasures" are nothing like AACS key updates. If BD+ has the ability to run native code directly on the player platform, it can in principle do whatever it wants, including things like installing rootkits (which I'm sure Sony BMG would define as being part of the "player environment"). The question is whether the policies governing the use of BD+ allow such a thing. Unfortunately the general public has no way of knowing, because the relevant specifications are kept confidential.

This brings me to my questions to Talkstr8t:

- Why are the BD+ specifications kept secret, considering that there is wide agreement among security experts that "security by obscurity" doesn't work?

- Do you think there is a way to make at least parts of the relevant specifications publicly available, just like most of the AACS specs are? This could alleviate concerns such as the ones voiced by the previous poster (if they are in fact unwarranted).

I am also very concerned about this, probaby to the extent I will not allow BD+ to run on my HTPC even if that means giving up the ability to legally play BD discs. I might reconsider if there were some sort of official and legally binding statement from the BDA stating the limitations of what BD+ is really allowed to do int the case it feels it really necessary.

Is it possible to get any such sort of assurance?

- Tom
post #3787 of 4687
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Baron View Post

Hmm that sound a bit dubious concidering the article below:

http://www.nytimes.com/paidcontent/P...ref=technology

"Toshiba plans to cut the retail price for its HD DVD titles at $31.74 - about $2 less than Blu-ray's suggested price. Toshiba also has been lowering the price of its players, offering a basic player for $299. "

How is it that Toshiba is able to set MSRP on the Disk if the situation is how you say?

They aren't.

All they can do as the chair of the DVD Forum is make a recommendation to the studios and hope they listen. By the looks of it after checking Amazon.com, all discs have the same MSRP they ever had.
post #3788 of 4687
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maxpower1987 View Post

The simple answer is to wait.

If you can't afford something, wait unitl you can, you don't need Blu-ray...

People did it for DVD, I can't see why Blu-ray should be any different.

So given that neither advanced CODEC's nor advanced profiles will be affordable for the average consumer for an indefinitely long period of time, (since those features are currently being used to bulk up the prices of BR players), doesn't that mean that BR will likely be unsuccessful in growing the market since the vast majority of video consumers see little to no advantage in HD optical media over either SD DVD or upscaled SD DVD?

EDIT PS. Anyone else get the impression that in the last few days, the prospects for HD Optical Media just converged dramatically upon the life cycle we observed for SACD and DVD-A?
post #3789 of 4687
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Baron View Post

Hmm that sound a bit dubious concidering the article below:

http://www.nytimes.com/paidcontent/P...ref=technology

"Toshiba plans to cut the retail price for its HD DVD titles at $31.74 - about $2 less than Blu-ray’s suggested price. Toshiba also has been lowering the price of its players, offering a basic player for $299. "

How is it that Toshiba is able to set MSRP on the Disk if the situation is how you say?

Assuming Toshiba handles replication ... they could decide whether to do it at cost or subsidize it. Technically, they could do it at a profit, but that is not the standard practice?
post #3790 of 4687
Thread Starter 
Insiders: take note [and this applies to all insiders]

Please limit your comments here to your area of expertise:

if you are here for one particular camp, please do not use your Insider status to bash the other side: this is unfair particularly at this time

Thank you
post #3791 of 4687
In a recent news article from CES it mentions the transfer of movies from the PS3 to a PSP and that these will be placed as second copies of the movie on the BR discs. I would like to ask how much space this will take up on discs?

Quote:


Separately, as another innovation demo, Sony said that it will be embedding a digital copy of Godzilla on the Blu-ray disc that can be transferred within minutes to the PlayStation Portable for viewing. The PSP retrieves the data when it’s connected to the player’s USB port.

http://www.videobusiness.com/article...dustryid=47211
post #3792 of 4687
Quote:
Originally Posted by MidnightWatcher View Post

Where has it already failed once? Also, there is a huge number of HD DVD owners, which would only grow as more dual format players are introduced to the masses. There are more dedicated HD DVD players than there are standalone Blu-ray players.

I think the fact that BD standalones did in fact outsell HD DVD standalones during the december sales is a sign of failure.
post #3793 of 4687
Quote:
Originally Posted by TomsHT View Post

In a recent news article from CES it mentions the transfer of movies from the PS3 to a PSP and that these will be placed as second copies of the movie on the BR discs. I would like to ask how much space this will take up on discs?

Good question.

If they are planning to offer this only though PS3, I'm wondering why they bother putting it on at all? In theory, they could actually have the PS3 generate the SD version.
post #3794 of 4687
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maxpower1987 View Post

It's quite clear that you don't like Blu-ray, I don't know why, but can you walk into a store and see Blu-rays priced the same as their HD DVD counterparts?



Yes, Sony do subsidise the PS3, but that is a given because it is a games console less than two years old, Sony subsidised the PS2 for nearly three years and MS theoriginal Xbox over its whole life and the X360 for nearly two years, longer if you take RRoD into account. So that is not really an issue here.

The Sony standalones and other BD standalones have never been subsidised.

Hardware is artificially low.

I am not sure that is a fair assessment.

I think even MS agrees there were business mistakes were made with the original console and why they made major changes with how they handled round two.

Nintendo never loses money on their consoles.

Sony, for the PS1 and PS2, was only in the red a year or two with those consoles.

It appears, on face value, that most of the losses on each PS3 are to subsidize it's Blu-ray capabilities.

Do you feel this is a fair statement?

A second question, open to any insider that wishes to answer it. What is the logic behind Sony's decision to risk their lucrative Playstation line to fight a war on the less profitable HDM market? As it has been mentioned before, video game sales have passed box office sales. Overall sales that I have seen (gaming hardware+software+etc vs. box office+dvd+etc) has the gaming industry around 50% of the movie industry, but with double digit growth compared to the movie industries decline. So I am having a hard time getting my head around someone at Sony saying, "We can either focus on the growing gaming industry where me command the market and make billions [insert Dr. Evil grin] in a few short years, OR we can turn our attention to competing with Toshiba by gambling our gaming market on the rather slim hopes of making more money in about a decade."

And for the record, I do hope that Sony and the BDA are able to pull off a true win with Blu-ray, because I believe the market needs some form of HDM. I am not as optimistic as I would like to be that it will happen though.

Thank you.
post #3795 of 4687
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maxpower1987 View Post

It's quite clear that you don't like Blu-ray, I don't know why, but can you walk into a store and see Blu-rays priced the same as their HD DVD counterparts?

I'm confused here. You had mentioned that your company saw higher potential for its clients to make money with Blu-ray. How does the retail model affect what the Studio makes? Perhaps I'm just misunderstanding here, but weren't we talking about replication and not retail costs? What other avenue's does Blu-ray have to make it the more profitable model if replication is more expensive today?

Quote:


Yes, Sony do subsidise the PS3, but that is a given because it is a games console less than two years old, Sony subsidised the PS2 for nearly three years and MS theoriginal Xbox over its whole life and the X360 for nearly two years, longer if you take RRoD into account. So that is not really an issue here.

Is Sony taking the stance that the PS3 is a Game Console, a Blu-ray Player, or a Media Center? Or some composite? Did they do something different here than they did with the PSX in Japan? Or is the timing just better?

Quote:


The Sony standalones and other BD standalones have never been subsidised.

Ahhh ... that's good to know. Thank you. The Samsung players were recently selling for around $275 I believe. Since the Blu-ray OPU is more expensive, how heavily subsidized should we expect the Toshiba units to be? The A30 sells for more than the Samsung, so we would only be talking about the A2/A3 series here. Are they truly subsidizing or just giving up additional profit?

Quote:


Hardware is artificially low.

But then this is true of both sides, some 90%+ of the players are PS3's, no? Is there a timeframe that you could share where the PS3 would go to Break Even? Are they close?
post #3796 of 4687
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maxpower1987 View Post

Does it matter though, the market isn't exactly mature. There is a long way to go yet and lots of companies are installing BD50 capacity as we speak. So ask me this question again in a year.

I'm just not sure I understand and perhaps I am missing something you or another Insider could clear up for me. Your company thought Blu-ray was more profitable for your company, but it will take a year or more for replication costs to come down to what they are for HD DVD today?

Also, if Blu-ray lines cost upwards of a few million dollars each, who is going to absorb those costs? Won't replicators have to pass those costs down to the Studios?
post #3797 of 4687
Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post

May I ask what your level of experience is with TL-51? Have you read the specs and visited replicators for example?


Got it. I don't think any other company does that in the industry .


Who promised them for this CES?

Amir -

I'm not sure of your position here. Do you believe there is much of a chance Hollywood movies are ever going to arrive on TL-51?

- Tom
post #3798 of 4687
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maxpower1987 View Post

Well I was actually referncing their $99 three day sale...

The players they sell now are sold at no profit to the channel last I heard (which was a while ago, so that may have changed by now).

Weren't those $99 players actually sold below cost at retail (ie: Toshiba did not take the hit on those)? From what I remember, that had nothing to do with Toshiba. Do the BDA CE's then have some sort of price floors in effect for their devices where retailers are unable to charge below cost or some other certain amount?
post #3799 of 4687
Thread Starter 
reminder of the rules of this thread:

Post Questions [only questions] directed to and answered only by Industry Insiders who are asked to identify themselves as such in their sig : subject to AVS approval

Industry Insiders only may answer questions or make comments: this is the thread for chat between Insiders as well : however Insiders should limit their comments to their side only and never attack other Insiders


If you are here as a representative from ether camp your contribution is welcomed but moving forward please do not disparage or bash the opposing format in any way.
Please play fair.

Thank you!!
post #3800 of 4687
To everyone, kindly keep your opinions of the insiders here to yourselves. Up until this point, I have been a lurker on this particular thread, but it has gotten to the point where sifting through all of the personal attacks against the insiders here just to find genuine questions and answers has become quite a task. Seeing as this thread is for questions to insiders only, and not a debate thread, the mature course of action to take is to allow the insiders to dispense their information freely without being bashed, and allow any who may read their posts assess their bias as they will. There are plenty of other locations for you to express your opinions on this forum; I believe (quite correctly) that this is not one of them. If you are going to ask a question, accept the answer that is given, even if you don't like it. What is the point of having an insiders' thread if we challenge everything they say?

On that note, and finally, onto my question:

To any insider, was the decision to finally implement internal DTS-HD MA decoding capabilities on several BD player models strategically done, or was the technology still in development up to this point?
post #3801 of 4687
Any insiders feel yesterdays announcement/demo from Cisco of DOCSIS 3.0 (160mbps) and FIOS expansion into more markets will have any impact on the optical HDM market?
post #3802 of 4687
Max -
First Glad to see more Blu-Ray insiders visiting and I appreciated the added infor and perspectives. It improves the quality of this site to have insiders who vary in perspective, expertise and style.
Thanks


Not sure if you have a direct line to get an answer on the following but:

There is an interest out there for a solution to getting anolog multi channel audio out of the PS3, currently we can only get multi channel uncompressed via hdmi, and while standalones have analog outs, I wonder if in the future we might see a peripheral that gets us this on the PS3
post #3803 of 4687
To any Microsoft insider:

Is there any hope that Microsoft will release an external Blu-ray drive for the Xbox 360, giving consumers both choices? A lot of people here own an Xbox 360 and do not want to buy a PS3.

Thank you.
post #3804 of 4687
Quote:
Originally Posted by FrancescoP View Post

To any Microsoft insider:

Is there any hope that Microsoft will release an external Blu-ray drive for the Xbox 360, giving consumers both choices? A lot of people here own an Xbox 360 and do not want to buy a PS3.

Thank you.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080108/...show_xbox_dc_1
post #3805 of 4687
I have a question for BD insiders regarding profiles.

After 2.0 is out, is the format then considered "complete" (for lack of a better word)?

I'm sure if there was a 2.1 or a 3.0 in the works, we'd have heard about it, but just curious if there have been any rumblings about more profiles in the future beyond 2.0.
post #3806 of 4687
Can insiders comment on the following comment by Seagate's CEO: http://www.news.com/8301-10784_3-984...l?tag=nefd.top

Extract:

Seagate CEO: Blu-ray won the battle but lost the war

Posted by Michael Kanellos

LAS VEGAS--The winner in the Blu-ray and HD DVD war is the hard drive, according to Bill Watkins, CEO of Seagate Technology.

"People are saying Blu-ray won the war but who cares? The war is over physical distribution versus electrical distribution, and Blu-ray and HD lost that," he said during a breakfast meeting at the Consumer Electronics Show here this week. "In this, flash memory and hard drives are on the same side. The war is over and the physical guys lost."

Watkins, naturally, speaks from personal interest, but he's got a point. (A former Army grunt and a decades-long Deadhead, Watkins is also one of the more entertaining CEOs in the technology industry to interview.) Consumers haven't been buying Blu-ray or HD DVD players and by the time they do, technology companies will likely be hawking sophisticated on-demand services and Internet Protocol TV. IPTV, in fact, is the dominant theme of the show. Sharp, Samsung, and Panasonic all unfurled content alliances that will let consumers look at headlines or videos from the Net on their TVs.

That's good news for Seagate, because electronic distribution means more hard drive sales. "If (data) is in the cloud I get more storage sales because you have to back up everything," he said.

"Surveillance is a big deal," he added. "You're being filmed right now (we were in a casino) and they've got to store it somewhere."

Hard drive makers are right now living through good times. In the 1990s, excess manufacturing capacity and price cuts led to stagnant revenues and losses for many companies. Since then, many players have dropped out. New markets such as digital video recorders opened up for drive makers. As a result, both Seagate and Rival Western Digital are seeing double-digit growth. Seagate has already upped its revenue guidance twice for the quarter that just ended.

And the future continues to look good. Hollywood, Watkins said, will have no choice but to get into home delivery of content in a big way. People are leaving home less and less. And if the movie studios don't deliver their content to their home, people will watch whatever they can find on the Internet. At CES, XStreamHD is showing off a box that gets on-demand movies from a satellite. Actor Michael Douglas is an investor.

"They will watch lousy content if it is easy to do," he said.
post #3807 of 4687
Quote:
Originally Posted by Talkstr8t View Post

Toe, I've passed your concern on to my Panasonic content.

- Talk

Thank you!!! This problem is so bad I don't ever watch PCM on my BD-30 anymore.

Mike
post #3808 of 4687
Quote:
Originally Posted by stpat View Post

Hi Max,

I find this statement quite interesting. Why is Paramount displeased with Toshiba?

What I mean is, isn't it really up to the studios to release content to attract people to a specific hardware platform?

One of the things I've heard from both sides through this whole "war" was how the BD studios were being so much more aggressive in the number of titles they were releasing.

In my mind, the HD DVD supporting studios didn't do everything they could to try to make HD DVD win. For example, Dreamworks could have released Shrek 1 and 2 at the same time as 3, or Paramount could have released the Star Trek movies... putting content out there that would've made HD DVD the "platform to own".

Does it make sense to be unhappy with the h/w manufacturer? (of course advertising for HD DVD was never on par with Blu-ray, so I can see if from that perspective.)

It seems to me that the HD DVD studios lost the war for Toshiba to a certain degree.

Thoughts?

I whole heartedly agree with that statement. For 2 xmas seasons in a row they had virtually no A list titles being released. The first xmas season with virtually no competition from bluray and only one player out they should have released many major titles. xmas season 2 roles around and again only a few major titles from Paramount and Universal while bluray had an slew A list titles. Thoughts?
post #3809 of 4687
Question for BluRay insiders or DD or DTS insiders.

What are the mandatory formats on a BD title? I have a couple of Fox titles which have DTS Master HD as the main track and the rest are DD but either foreign language or commentary.

I have a PS3 connected to a 1 gen AVR receiver which only does DD (in fact it's labelled AC-3 which indicates how old it is).

Playing a BD title like Fly Boys , connecting the AVR via Toslink I am getting audio but the AC-3 light doesn't come on (it does when selecting the alternate tracks). I presume that the PS3 is sending out a PCM signal (2 channel) over Toslink, at the same time it's sending out a DTS 5.1 core? Pressing Select on the PS3 controller indicates that the audio is DTS 5.1.

So in my setup I cannot get 5.1 sound from any Fox title authored like that?

Thanks for any information that would enlighten me.
post #3810 of 4687
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maxpower1987 View Post

I don't know where you guys get this stuff from.

Toshiba make very little money on HD DVD hardware and no profit on disc sales. The proceeds from discs sold at retail go to the studios, not any hardware manufacturers. The studios will then pay royalties on those discs, but the hardware manufacturers will never make anything directly from people buying discs in stores.

Just to be clear, to the extent the hardware maker is also a patent holder in the physical format, they WILL make profit on every disc sale. And since, if there is volume market, the number of discs sold will be quite large (much larger than number of players), there is tidy profit in that. The companies which fall in this category are Toshiba, Panasonic, Sony, Philips, Samsung, LG, etc.

Studios will have to pay royalties on these patents after they pay all of their other costs assuming they do not have a cross licensing agreement....
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