Originally Posted by Kevin 3000
Chirp in why don`t you on the standards debate to set the record straight natural vs standards as you seem unbias and level headed
Way back in this thread I commented on grayscale being different from color decoding. Most scalers don't have any problem with red push because they were designed to be linear in their color decoding, but many brands of CRT RPTV WERE designed with red push, Mit being one of the most prominent offenders, Sony and Hitachi coming up a close second and third.
All these brands have ways to realign their color decoding, if you work hard enough. But CRT front pjs are RGB based, which does not discriminate or cause any red push or any other color push. That's done ONLY in the source or the scaler used for that pj. A CRT ceiling pj is very much a dumb animal when it comes to color decoding when the straight RGB path is used. It just replicates what it was sent, with no dalliances in any direction at all. RGB is the final stage in all CRT triple gun tech, even CRT RPTVs. Ceiling pjs, when running straight RGB, are using ONLY that final part of the signal path. Again, a very dumb animal. A very EXPENSIVE dumb animal, to be sure, (stop laughing, Cliff!) but a very dumb animal nevertheless.
This is all secondary and separate from the grayscale, which is the black and white ONLY. The grayscale forms the basic baseline the colors are then created from.
Computer monitors are not all alike - in many ways they are all over the map in their grayscale and color renditions. It's not just that our single chip cameras are not broadcast quality HD cameras. It's also our PC and Mac monitors, tho Macs are probably closer to real color because that's what the true online artists use. So we're all seeing something at least a little different from each other, as virtually nobody calibrates their computer monitors to an independent standard like we do our video displays.
D6500K has been the standard for grayscale since TV began. It still is. Same for SMPTE C colors. Nothing has changed since. Rec 709 has come in now for an expanded color gamut because of the increased range of new fixed pixel displays, but the basics remain the same.
The bottom line is whether you look at your display and see whether it looks LIFELIKE or not. If it does you get your promised suspension of disbelief and are spirited away to some galaxy far, far away. If not you get to be watching a very colorful display, sometimes oversaturated and TOO colorful, or lacking blues and greens and oversaturated on the reds! But not lifelike. If it's not lifelike you gotta settle for colorful and let it go at that. Getting the fleshtones correct gives you the best shot at suspension of disbelief in a non-linear color decoding situation, and you gotta just let the rest fall where it may.
Color decoding has to be done using test patterns and color isolation AFTER the grayscale is set to the standard of D6500K. Paul Carleton, creator of the SPot, used to be a cameraman and before every shoot they would realign their color decoding on those cameras. That's were I learned about color decoding being different from grayscale and different from the overall effects of Color Saturation and Hue. Took me really sideways the first time he demo'd all that, on location in Seattle. I hurt my neck on the double-take, my jaw just dropped to the floor...
My impression of your pix, Kevin, is that there's a drabness in them that makes me question your grayscale. Does b/w material - like the original Casablanca - look like the same color of a gray overcast cloudy day? I think not, I think it would look a little greenish on your display, and would look more natural if your set's grayscale were corrected.
It has also been mentioned that the JVC has color slewing which has been documented. If it's red push, that's very insidious, because red push translates to blue/green diminish. IOW, you can use the THX Optimizer to get your blues dazzling, but if you have red push, the reds are then going to be overdone, which decimates your fleshtones. If you take your color saturation down a bit you can really dial in your fleshtones but once you do, your greens and blues then look wilted and diminished, as the color saturation control affects all 3 colors simultaneously, by exactly the same amount each.
Cliff knows about this, it's on his 65" Mit CRT RPTV. Or at least was, he may have had it corrected by now...
And you can't fudge the fleshtones. That's the one thing that affects your suspension of disbelief most. If you have red push you CAN get great fleshtones, but only at the expense of a lot of the other supporting colorations.
Realignment of your color decoding AFTER your grayscale has been dialed in allows all the colors to show up like they should have all along, which would then allow your display to match the references set up by the creators of the video genre here that we all know and love. Exposed years ago by Joe Kane, tho they were actually created by the founders of the genre at the inception of TV. These references are present in color bars patterns for the color and are used via color isolation - either by filters (close but no cigar) or actual color isolation, which on CRT is done effortlessly by simply covering 2 of the lenses. On fixed pixel it's really hard to get it right, as I don't know of any fixed pixel displays that include color isolation in their service menu registers, and you can only trust filters so far, as they can deliver results that are very different from true color isolation.
And by way of reference test patterns for grayscale - actually any b/w material that has the right shadings and dynamics - plus reference comparison or "color analyer" equipment. (I put color analyzer in quotes because color analyzers REALLY only analyze the b/w material for grayscale purposes. You can't cure red push by altering the colors used for grayscale. The grayscale has to stay at D6500K no matter what, their registers can't be used for color decoding realignment.)
Many of us have worked very hard on our own grayscales, some of us have hired the best to do that for us. And most here don't have any color push or pull because they own some of the best and unaltered equipment. I had to work very hard on my color decoding because mine is a Mit, which designs red push into their product and have since long before HD. There was even a series where there were 3 choices - Accurate, Average and Skin Tone. Accurate was the ONLY setting that allowed NO red push and was completely linear in its color decoding and thus color rendition. But that was long ago, long before HD was even a gleam in its creators' eye. They now make you slog thru PerfectColor, whose labels for the primaries and secondaries mean nothing when you get right down to realigning out the red push. It's hair-pulling-out territory! But worth it, when the colors are so lifelike you feel you're there, in the middle of it all.
You have put up shots that are completely reasonable for an out of box display. But you're challenging owners who are afficianados and have taken LOTS of measures into their own hands, to put up the best shots they know how.
My suggestion is to have your set calibrated by a professional calibrator and see if it passes muster. Then add a Lumagen or some other great processor to take care of any color decoding anomalies inherent in JVC's product.