Screenshot War!!!!!!!! - Page 101

I think you all need to go outside and Take pictures of your wives flowers or just your yard.

Call that "your" reference. Then throw it up on your movie theatre screens and compare.

If your projector truly is natural looking they should come out the same....Right?


Rudy

Mike get real, of course the director would never want the grass to look purple. But the point I'm making is they have control over what they want the hues/saturation etc to look like and no it doesn't always have to or well necessarily look it might in the real world. Geez even you should know that.

Really, you think all grass looks the same or is the same colour, I think you need to get more. I play golf at least 2 times a week and I play on alot of different courses and not all courses use the same type of grass which means not all grass is the same colour green. Now do you know what type of green is in any particular scene or for that matter what colour it's suppose to be, come on. Yes of course we all know grass is suppose to be a nice green, not to dark not to light and lush, but that's in a perfect world/picture.
Of course I'm not bringing up these points to defend the digital world because as most know I have a Zenith 1200x(cine8 Onyx). I'm just saying stop being so stubborn and naieve about all this.

When I start posting images that supposed to represent REFERENCE, and then showing how my shots are right there with that reference shot, it's then that I'll need to confess..

Anyway, here's another shot from a not yet calibrated CRT projector...

Oh, and it's also done using a cheap point and shoot camera:

I'm rather enjoying these CRT/Digital comparisons! A couple of years ago the idea that a digital could even show a half-decent picture was laughable, times have changed somewhat to say the least.

Keep it up guys, just don't let it get too serious though, this is meant to be FUN.

Good idea about the reference picture jesusjones, not sure how it would pan out for any of us - I'd be afraid to try in case it turned out nothing like what I see out my window !

Agreed will redo later for an even closer to reference shot....

So are you going to post any or are you just here as backup....

I think we ought to take picture of SMPTE color bar but then again each camera has its own color gamut.

And another thing Mike, for gods sake stop taking all these shots and then saying it's from an uncalibrated CRT. Spend the time and calibrate the f'ing thing and then show us all how good it is!

Thats the crux of the problem he can`t as his tool is 2 small...

Even with every camera having its own color gamut and every computer screen being different.

The point every one here is tying to make is that namatter what they put up on their projectors. It comes out exactly what it was intended to look like.

So if the camera took a picture of grass that looks yellow. It should look yellow on your Projector also. Not green all of a sudden.

And once all the pictures have been taken and put side by side. If the projector truly is PERFECT. You'd have 2 identical images. Nomatter what screen/monitor u are veiwing it on


And Paul Buttler, I tried my idea on my 1272. lol it was disapointing. Not that it didn't look good. It just wasn't an ACCURATE reproduction.

I have a feeling every one who believes there projector is spot on. Is running out to do this right now. And the rest, will probably just ignore me.(Oh now it's on! :P )

In Mike's defense he has posted some excellent shots early in this thread.

what a great thread

I'm not saying he hasn't posted some excellent shots in the past because he has.

Way back in this thread I commented on grayscale being different from color decoding. Most scalers don't have any problem with red push because they were designed to be linear in their color decoding, but many brands of CRT RPTV WERE designed with red push, Mit being one of the most prominent offenders, Sony and Hitachi coming up a close second and third.

All these brands have ways to realign their color decoding, if you work hard enough. But CRT front pjs are RGB based, which does not discriminate or cause any red push or any other color push. That's done ONLY in the source or the scaler used for that pj. A CRT ceiling pj is very much a dumb animal when it comes to color decoding when the straight RGB path is used. It just replicates what it was sent, with no dalliances in any direction at all. RGB is the final stage in all CRT triple gun tech, even CRT RPTVs. Ceiling pjs, when running straight RGB, are using ONLY that final part of the signal path. Again, a very dumb animal. A very EXPENSIVE dumb animal, to be sure, (stop laughing, Cliff!) but a very dumb animal nevertheless.



This is all secondary and separate from the grayscale, which is the black and white ONLY. The grayscale forms the basic baseline the colors are then created from.

Computer monitors are not all alike - in many ways they are all over the map in their grayscale and color renditions. It's not just that our single chip cameras are not broadcast quality HD cameras. It's also our PC and Mac monitors, tho Macs are probably closer to real color because that's what the true online artists use. So we're all seeing something at least a little different from each other, as virtually nobody calibrates their computer monitors to an independent standard like we do our video displays.

D6500K has been the standard for grayscale since TV began. It still is. Same for SMPTE C colors. Nothing has changed since. Rec 709 has come in now for an expanded color gamut because of the increased range of new fixed pixel displays, but the basics remain the same.

The bottom line is whether you look at your display and see whether it looks LIFELIKE or not. If it does you get your promised suspension of disbelief and are spirited away to some galaxy far, far away. If not you get to be watching a very colorful display, sometimes oversaturated and TOO colorful, or lacking blues and greens and oversaturated on the reds! But not lifelike. If it's not lifelike you gotta settle for colorful and let it go at that. Getting the fleshtones correct gives you the best shot at suspension of disbelief in a non-linear color decoding situation, and you gotta just let the rest fall where it may.

Color decoding has to be done using test patterns and color isolation AFTER the grayscale is set to the standard of D6500K. Paul Carleton, creator of the SPot, used to be a cameraman and before every shoot they would realign their color decoding on those cameras. That's were I learned about color decoding being different from grayscale and different from the overall effects of Color Saturation and Hue. Took me really sideways the first time he demo'd all that, on location in Seattle. I hurt my neck on the double-take, my jaw just dropped to the floor...


My impression of your pix, Kevin, is that there's a drabness in them that makes me question your grayscale. Does b/w material - like the original Casablanca - look like the same color of a gray overcast cloudy day? I think not, I think it would look a little greenish on your display, and would look more natural if your set's grayscale were corrected.

It has also been mentioned that the JVC has color slewing which has been documented. If it's red push, that's very insidious, because red push translates to blue/green diminish. IOW, you can use the THX Optimizer to get your blues dazzling, but if you have red push, the reds are then going to be overdone, which decimates your fleshtones. If you take your color saturation down a bit you can really dial in your fleshtones but once you do, your greens and blues then look wilted and diminished, as the color saturation control affects all 3 colors simultaneously, by exactly the same amount each.

Cliff knows about this, it's on his 65" Mit CRT RPTV. Or at least was, he may have had it corrected by now...

And you can't fudge the fleshtones. That's the one thing that affects your suspension of disbelief most. If you have red push you CAN get great fleshtones, but only at the expense of a lot of the other supporting colorations.

Realignment of your color decoding AFTER your grayscale has been dialed in allows all the colors to show up like they should have all along, which would then allow your display to match the references set up by the creators of the video genre here that we all know and love. Exposed years ago by Joe Kane, tho they were actually created by the founders of the genre at the inception of TV. These references are present in color bars patterns for the color and are used via color isolation - either by filters (close but no cigar) or actual color isolation, which on CRT is done effortlessly by simply covering 2 of the lenses. On fixed pixel it's really hard to get it right, as I don't know of any fixed pixel displays that include color isolation in their service menu registers, and you can only trust filters so far, as they can deliver results that are very different from true color isolation.

And by way of reference test patterns for grayscale - actually any b/w material that has the right shadings and dynamics - plus reference comparison or "color analyer" equipment. (I put color analyzer in quotes because color analyzers REALLY only analyze the b/w material for grayscale purposes. You can't cure red push by altering the colors used for grayscale. The grayscale has to stay at D6500K no matter what, their registers can't be used for color decoding realignment.)

Many of us have worked very hard on our own grayscales, some of us have hired the best to do that for us. And most here don't have any color push or pull because they own some of the best and unaltered equipment. I had to work very hard on my color decoding because mine is a Mit, which designs red push into their product and have since long before HD. There was even a series where there were 3 choices - Accurate, Average and Skin Tone. Accurate was the ONLY setting that allowed NO red push and was completely linear in its color decoding and thus color rendition. But that was long ago, long before HD was even a gleam in its creators' eye. They now make you slog thru PerfectColor, whose labels for the primaries and secondaries mean nothing when you get right down to realigning out the red push. It's hair-pulling-out territory! But worth it, when the colors are so lifelike you feel you're there, in the middle of it all.

You have put up shots that are completely reasonable for an out of box display. But you're challenging owners who are afficianados and have taken LOTS of measures into their own hands, to put up the best shots they know how.

My suggestion is to have your set calibrated by a professional calibrator and see if it passes muster. Then add a Lumagen or some other great processor to take care of any color decoding anomalies inherent in JVC's product.



b

Agree!
Here is one I ran into:

He is better off to get the processor first before calling someone with colori-meter.

Could be. I can't tell, with the pix that he's sent up so far.

Kevin, you might want to send up a set of true b/w pix, with lots of variability in their light levels and shadings and overall dynamics, so we can see your grayscale in action.

Or just a true grayscale pattern, like any of the Joe Kane patterns.

Don't use any AVIA grayscale pattern for your grayscale - they were created correctly by Guy Kuo along with all the great patterns on the Ovation SD disc, but got flawed in the production process once it was out of his hands, and are not usable for grayscale.



b

Thanks Mr Bob for trying to sort things out its just my camera skills needs sorting this JVC has limitations as we all know but this is a screenshots war thread not calibration so let the wars begin....

lol, not really. i still love crt. But like digital for HD. As far as the greens go phoshophor based like plasma and crt will wipe the floor against anything else because of the phosphors. I don't like neon greens. I don't think it's possible to have deep greens without phosphors, certainly not dlp or lcos.

yep, and that's a major problem for me. I love punchy and dynamic greens. It does wonders for nature scenes and all things outdoors.

Well, I'm just enjoying posting them for now. It's like I put things in 4th gear yesterday, and I have two more gears to go before reaching my top speed..

It's not quite ready for finals. not only do I need to replace the convergence board, I also have something else I'll need to replace that will be crucial to a proper setup/calibration.

One year I hope you'll be able to just sit back and enjoy the fruits of your labours and stop tinkering.

In some threads you're claiming to have the ultimate setup, so much so that you claim that your shots balance out against the "reference" shots that you post......however, I'm seeing now that you're also acknowledging that your JVC has issues ("limitations") and your camera skills aren't the best. You also indicate that we're all aware of your JVC issues..

And as if that's not enough to wave the white flag, you want to still join in on the screenshot war.

Well Kev, that's what it's all about. Simply posting what you have without boasting that it's better than anything else. Glad you came around..

I'll be doing that soon. It's just that I'm waiting on something else to complet things. I have all intent to get my Ht up and running. When that finally happens, it will be something to behold..

Hey mp20748 check this out looks reference to me...THX Reference that is

that's right, to you it looks. to me....never mind.

Anyway, when doing foliage. There's always varying shades of green. Especially when looking at grass. You should be able to see deep greens and lighter greens. And your shot is showing one single shade of green on everything green..

And that's THX?

I have that Blu Ray. I'll see if i can post a few shots for comparison.

Yes but I meant he needs the processor before calibration not after the isf guy has left. Having said that rs-350 has no provision for color decoder tweak AFAIK like my own rs2. It is shame since it is a nice fixed panel otherwise .

Mike posted a few pages back, sorry if I missed your answer

would love to know your screensize/type and lenses being used

thanks

-Gary

You can see how crt does colours better, particularly pastels. You can see how natural the images look instead of the artificial sharpness. You can see the greater depth and dimensionality compared to some of the flat and undersaturated images. And lets not forget the fluid motion and the greater motion resolution of crt compared to digitals.