AVS › AVS Forum › Display Devices › CRT Projectors › Screenshot War!!!!!!!!
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Screenshot War!!!!!!!! - Page 172

post #5131 of 5447
12/23/11 at 12:28pm
Craig rounds had a video or pics of scope shots of the multi-burst pattern, the moome outperformed it. It is just a better product for videophiles.

Ok found Craigs pics: HD Fury III ( 1080p@60)



Now the Moome Card at 1080p@72!!!!( not his latest)




As you can see it can handle the bandwidth of 1080p much better at an even higher scan rate than the HDF3.

Athanasios
Reply
Reply

Gear mentioned in this thread:

post #5132 of 5447
12/23/11 at 12:42pm
Here is Craigs explination:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...5#post19189385


Quote:
Originally Posted by CIR-Engineering View Post

I got a PM question regarding the photos I posted so here is the answer and explanation.

The photos I posted are of my oscilloscope displaying a multiburst test pattern from my Accupel HDG-4000 test pattern generator. To get the scope to display the pattern, the green BNC from the HDMI to RGBHV transcoder was connected to the scope input. A multiburst pattern looks like the image below when shown on your projector screen.



What the multburst pattern shows is the bandwidth of the device being tested. The black and white alternating lines start out wide on the left and then get narrower and narrower towards the right side of the pattern. At the right side with the thinnest lines, the black and white lines are literally one pixel width wide. Since the lines are only one pixel width wide, they represent the maximum resolution of the device being tested.

The scope photos show 1080p 60Hz. What you see on the projector screen is a black and white alternating line. The scope shows the rise and fall of these lines as they go from black to white and back and forth.

Ideally, when you look at the multiburst on the projector screen, the 1 pixel wide lines would be just as bright as the lines that are very wide. In real world analog this is never the case.

However, what you want to see is a transcoder that does as good a job as is possible. If a transcoder were perfect, all the lines in the burst pattern from the thick ones to the thinnest ones would be exactly the same height (amplitude) on the scope.

What you see on the Moome box is that all the lines are the same height except for the very finest 1 pixel wide lines. What you see on the HDF3 is a kind of hour glass shape to the different width lines and the tightly spaced lines (high frequency) are not nearly as tall as the wide lines (attenuated). This means that the image can not be as sharp because the bandwidth is attenuated before it hits the projector and you can't properly draw edges of objects (softer).

Another observation from the scope shot is that there is a lot of noise and irregularities in the HDF3 multiburst. You can also see a lot of peaking (edge enhancements) on the high frequency part of the burst on the HDF3. The Moome box does not have these problems either.

On a 7" projector this won't really matter, on a good 8" projector it will make a difference, and on a good 9" projector it will make a huge difference.

craigr


Nashou
Reply
Reply
post #5133 of 5447
12/23/11 at 3:49pm
Quote:


Yeah, like the VP 20 and VP50, all the DVDOs, tho they are stellar in all other ways


Only the vp series have D/A converters. The Duo has only digital outputs.

If I didn't have full cms/grayscale multipoint capability, I would definately use a gamma boost such as the Moome. I just use the Moome for HDCP & D/A conversion.

Note that all of Moome's products have gamma boost capability only on their analog outputs - not the digital outputs on his Mux's.

Bob
Reply
Reply
post #5134 of 5447
12/25/11 at 6:53am
Merry Christmas and Happy Hanukah to all my Screen Shot War Buddies!!!

Athanasios
Reply
Reply
post #5135 of 5447
12/29/11 at 12:57pm
Welcome!


Quote:
Originally Posted by Boilermaker View Post

Only the vp series have D/A converters. The Duo has only digital outputs.

If I didn't have full cms/grayscale multipoint capability, I would definately use a gamma boost such as the Moome. I just use the Moome for HDCP & D/A conversion.

Note that all of Moome's products have gamma boost capability only on their analog outputs - not the digital outputs on his Mux's.

Bob

Actually Moome tells me that his gamma bump is only on the HDMI outputs, which is why he has not been able to send me a box for component output. Not enough output from component, evidently, would need an additional stage. He was going to see what he could do but that was months ago, I will report in if I hear more about that -

b
Reply
Reply
post #5136 of 5447
1/5/12 at 9:35pm











Nashou!!!!!!
Reply
Reply
post #5137 of 5447
1/6/12 at 10:05am
Awesome depth there, Nashou!



b
Reply
Reply
post #5138 of 5447
1/8/12 at 3:40pm
Look out I am back time for a comparison or 2......

JVC RS65


CRT stack G90s


JVC RS65


CRT stack G90s with new Tubes


Overclkr looking a little dim.....you need to fire up your triple stack to to compete with this BAD BOY JVC....hehehe
Reply
Reply
post #5139 of 5447
1/10/12 at 11:04am
Ohhh man, the JVC is finally taking CRT territory.
I must admmit...in terms of focus and colors is better....even with Cine 9...
Reply
Reply
post #5140 of 5447
1/10/12 at 12:31pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by MV_Cinema View Post

Ohhh man, the JVC is finally taking CRT territory.
I must admmit...in terms of focus and colors is better....even with Cine 9...

Did I miss something... was a thread deleted??
Reply
Reply
post #5141 of 5447
1/11/12 at 1:04pm
Um, yeah...

Those blown-out highlights and tinted grayscale are something to behold!


Keep tryin'...
Reply
Reply
post #5142 of 5447
1/11/12 at 3:38pm
Another compariison for you all to compare........

JVC RS65 Out of the box setting FILM1 GAMMA 1.8


CRT stack G90s New Tubes Calibrated to within an inch of their lives.
Reply
Reply
post #5143 of 5447
1/12/12 at 1:45pm
For me the G90's are still better.

Maybe true that the JVC's Brightness is higher but the shots of the G90 are showing more Depth and black.
Reply
Reply
post #5144 of 5447
1/12/12 at 1:48pm
BTW as already mentioned greyscale looks bad on the JVC
Reply
Reply
post #5145 of 5447
1/13/12 at 6:33am
Gamma differences are obvious if you look at the area around her clavicle.

The higher gamma of the G90 just stomps the digital for depth.
Reply
Reply
post #5146 of 5447
1/13/12 at 11:06am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin 3000 View Post

Another compariison for you all to compare........

JVC RS65 Out of the box setting FILM1 GAMMA 1.8


CRT stack G90s New Tubes Calibrated to within an inch of their lives.

LOL Kevin nice try. Why don't you bring that cute little d!g$tal on over to my place for a DIRECT comparison! LOL. Just so you know my colors/gamma/greyscale is SPOT ON from top to bottom and I have Ken Whitcomb and Craig Rounds to prove it.
Reply
Reply
post #5147 of 5447
1/13/12 at 5:37pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ElTopo View Post

For me the G90's are still better.

Maybe true that the JVC's Brightness is higher but the shots of the G90 are showing more Depth and black.

There is no way in hell that JVC is brighter than the stack.

Now all we have to do is get Kevin to bring that JVC on over!
Reply
Reply
post #5148 of 5447
1/14/12 at 2:42am
Increased Gamma D 2.6......Compare to above......Gamma 2.35 should be the sweet spot.

JVC RS65 (1 of) needs calibrating......
Reply
Reply
post #5149 of 5447
1/14/12 at 11:54am
I know the sweet spot is supposed to be 2.35, and that according to ISF CRT has the ideal gamma naturally. It was stated in my advanced Level II ISF course last year that digitals endeavor to emulate CRT on that ideal gamma, and SpectraCal's CalMan 4 color analyzer automatically runs a test with all the gamma settings available to choose from on the more advanced displays, after which you can look the results over and set your display's Gamma setting to the one which delivers closest to the 2.35 "ideal", as laid out by CalMan.

But as proven by Cliff's Moome-equipped setup, there is a more ideal gamma than 2.35, and according to Cliff all CRTs need it, to do their finest work. Direct quote. I have found this to be absolutely true on my 73" Mit CRT, no question, and it definitely shows up on his G90 stack, be it double or triple. My thanks to Cliff for personally taking the time to clue me in on all this!

The more ideal gamma of 2.2 has been illustrated recently here on this thread by Nashou, see #5109, from last page back. The pix there speak for themselves. Dynamite!

Kudos to Ken W and Craig R!



b
Reply
Reply
post #5150 of 5447
1/14/12 at 1:11pm
I don't want to seem a pleasure destroyer for the CRT owner's but...the JVC is better.
Just because CRT was the best, and has amazong black levels, and costed a fortune, doesn't mean it's the best right now.

The screeshots speak for themselves.

By the way that comparison with the G90...you all can see there is more detail in the JVC...

Not to mention maintenance of CRT Projectors and JVC...
Reply
Reply
post #5151 of 5447
1/14/12 at 1:52pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MV_Cinema View Post

I don't want to seem a pleasure destroyer for the CRT owner's but...the JVC is better.
Just because CRT was the best, and has amazong black levels, and costed a fortune, doesn't mean it's the best right now.

The screeshots speak for themselves.

By the way that comparison with the G90...you all can see there is more detail in the JVC...

Not to mention maintenance of CRT Projectors and JVC...

Trust me, I have no displeasure. That JVC looks fake, overblown, "pixelated". With that being said, it "looks" that way from the shot. Side by side the stack would smoke the JVC. It wouldn't even be close. We have to remember we are looking at screenshots and they really are not completely representative of what we are seeing. For example, while my shots "appear" to have less detail, that is not the case in person. The camera is just having a hard time picking it up because the blacks really are that good

Not to mention, we are using two different cameras, and on top of that, if I remember correctly, Kevin likes to "adjust" his shots. I just snap, crop, and post
Reply
Reply
post #5152 of 5447
1/14/12 at 2:52pm
Thanks for the info Bob....

Gereral comment
My screen is an optically coated 1.4gain, i do try my best to photograph what i see. No photoshop or enhancing software used check my EXIF data.

As with the CRTs in real life this JVC is truly a sight to be seen.
Reply
Reply
post #5153 of 5447
1/14/12 at 10:21pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin 3000 View Post

Thanks for the info Bob....

Gereral comment
My screen is an optically coated 1.4gain, i do try my best to photograph what i see. No photoshop or enhancing software used check my EXIF data.

As with the CRTs in real life this JVC is truly a sight to be seen.

Hehe, I knew that would draw you in.

Yes, they have come a LONG LONG way in what I feel is a very short time for sure. Even when I saw the RS1 with it's shortcomings I was impressed. To this day, I do not understand why JVC doesn't build a larger projector to handle a higher wattage lamp (let alone the rest of the bunch outside of 3 Chip DLP) so that we can drive at the very least a 10ft wide screen at a reasonable price (flat gain).

What is your location Kevin?
Reply
Reply
post #5154 of 5447
1/14/12 at 11:06pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Bob View Post

I know the sweet spot is supposed to be 2.35, and that according to ISF CRT has the ideal gamma naturally. It was stated in my advanced Level II ISF course last year that digitals endeavor to emulate CRT on that ideal gamma, and SpectraCal's CalMan 4 color analyzer automatically runs a test with all the gamma settings available to choose from on the more advanced displays, after which you can look the results over and set your display's Gamma setting to the one which delivers closest to the 2.35 "ideal", as laid out by CalMan.

But as proven by Cliff's Moome-equipped setup, there is a more ideal gamma than 2.35, and according to Cliff all CRTs need it, to do their finest work. Direct quote. I have found this to be absolutely true on my 73" Mit CRT, no question, and it definitely shows up on his G90 stack, be it double or triple. My thanks to Cliff for personally taking the time to clue me in on all this!

The more ideal gamma of 2.2 has been illustrated recently here on this thread by Nashou, see #5109, from last page back. The pix there speak for themselves. Dynamite!

Kudos to Ken W and Craig R!



b

No thank you Bob, cause it was all of us in one big ass swoop that got the TRUE meaning of what CRT should be working together and that is the BOMB!

Darin came here not to long ago and we popped in Finding Nemo on DVD and watched the Abyss scene when the glasses get dropped into the dark. Holy SCHIT dude I mean SERIOUSLY, it was pitch black in my room. We both had huge smiles on our faces.

Yes, when done right, and I have to add this for ANYONE looking to do CRT, you MUST have proper color filtering and as well CMS! Me, I prefer Moome (Mike Parker Modded) along with the Lumagen Radiance. Absolutely BEYOND killer combo. Not only that, but that Radiance, damn, smokin, and it does 3D, advanced gamma, auto color/greyscale/gamma correction for most colorimeters/measurement "devices", as well as many many many other features!

I remember when I first saw that processor out at William's Blend Meet I actually laughed at it because the menu's look like an Atari 2600.

I'm not laughing any more though. Absolutely stunning. Over the years in it's development, Lumagen has raised the bar for ANYONE who has the nuts at this point to compete with them as the support has been bar none period as well as features. Not one single video processor on the market can come close to it.

Add the Mike Parker Mod's and DAMN.

Let's see. Art Sonneborn, Ken Whitcomb, Craig Rounds, Alan Gouger, AVSFORUM, Curt Palme, Curt's Forum, WALLACE, The folks at Lumagen, NASHOU!!!!!!, Clarence, BOMRAT (Arli), MIKE PARKER, SCOTT(TSE), TERRY, BRUCE, GANNON, sheesh, the list just goes on and on. (I'm sorry if I missed you the typing is a pain in the ASS!)

The best part is, people say CRT is dead. Uh huh, for the mainstream yes, but for the VIDEOPHILE, no. Absolutely NOT. It's that good when done right. ALWAYS will be.
Reply
Reply
post #5155 of 5447
1/15/12 at 2:50am
Quote:
Originally Posted by overclkr View Post

Hehe, I knew that would draw you in.

Yes, they have come a LONG LONG way in what I feel is a very short time for sure. Even when I saw the RS1 with it's shortcomings I was impressed. To this day, I do not understand why JVC doesn't build a larger projector to handle a higher wattage lamp (let alone the rest of the bunch outside of 3 Chip DLP) so that we can drive at the very least a 10ft wide screen at a reasonable price (flat gain).

What is your location Kevin?

Across the pond in the UK..............I get what you are saying about Abyss. I watched some of Solaris and the fade to blacks held black long enough for the next scene to start (less than 2 seconds) outstanding for a digital with a constant light source 1.4gain Black Diamond 8ft wide screen.

I have yet to watch a film ib 3D but what i have seen for testing purposes i had no complaints.

Also this JVC has an Auto calibration feature yet to be tested, convergence is Zone controlled for PERFECT alignment, Lens memory another nice feature i could go on but this is the Screenshot War!!! thread so let the War continue, unless you all want to wave your white flags and Bow to this mighty JVC Digital hehehehe. I will be checking the EXIF data for detailed shooting info.
Reply
Reply
post #5156 of 5447
1/15/12 at 5:45am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin 3000 View Post

i could go on but this is the Screenshot War!!! thread so let the War continue, unless you all want to wave your white flags and Bow to this mighty JVC Digital hehehehe. I will be checking the EXIF data for detailed shooting info.

Kevin's back again..

I must say, I do like your drive and persistence. You somehow remind of a kid who just got a new bicycle and being so impressed with it, he wants to take it on the highway with the real vehicles.
Well, I'm back in town now, and nothing has inspired me more to get back on this thread, than to see you once posting those unrealistic images and then boasting about how much better they are to CRT.

I've been working on some new stuff well over a year, and I'll spend a good part of the day moving from the proto to the actual boards. I'm hoping to put a few shots up later tonight.

Talk about gamma... I'm coming back with a set of Super Low Noise Marquee neck boards. Mt setup will not be using the Moome gamma circuit, nor will I be using a processor. Stay tuned..
LL
LL
Reply
Reply
post #5157 of 5447
1/15/12 at 6:11am
Quote:
Originally Posted by mp20748 View Post

Kevin's back again..

I must say, I do like your drive and persistence. You somehow remind of a kid who just got a new bicycle and being so impressed with it, he wants to take it on the highway with the real vehicles.
Well, I'm back in town now, and nothing has inspired me more to get back on this thread, than to see you once posting those unrealistic images and then boasting about how much better they are to CRT.

You will need (2) G90s stacked to have a chance with this BAD ASS JVC. I can`t lower my e-shift anymore to keep you guys interested.
Reply
Reply
post #5158 of 5447
1/16/12 at 12:21am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin 3000 View Post

Look out I am back time for a comparison or 2......

JVC RS65


CRT stack G90s


JVC RS65


CRT stack G90s with new Tubes


Overclkr looking a little dim.....you need to fire up your triple stack to to compete with this BAD BOY JVC....hehehe

The colors look funny on the JVC. Whites are little bit purple.
Reply
Reply
post #5159 of 5447
1/16/12 at 4:29am
That JVC is FANTASTIC...PERFECT!
The only thing i don't use is 3D, i don't like it.
3D is dead, people just don't see that...
Reply
Reply
post #5160 of 5447
1/16/12 at 4:56am
OK Kev. I'm back on line with my Super Marquee. The shots below were taking directly from the camera, so they are untouched 1080P shots. The projector has yet to be calibrated to the latest neck boards and 03 VIM.

I will spend a few more days when I can and dial things in better. I have to also get a few parts in for the VIM, so let's look at this coming weekend, and I promise you I'll make this your last boast on this forum..

I got something for you. Again, no Moome gamma, no processor. staright from the BD player into Moome card in the projector. And we can do sharpness as well..

I'm also using the same camera I've used all of last year and sometime before.

So by all means get that JVC tweaked better than it is now, that would eliminate any excuses. And let's prepare and get ready to go the war this weekend. I'm going to spank that little JVC's plastic butt..



Uploaded with ImageShack.us




Uploaded with ImageShack.us
Reply
Reply
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: CRT Projectors

Gear mentioned in this thread:

AVS › AVS Forum › Display Devices › CRT Projectors › Screenshot War!!!!!!!!