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Samsung BDP1400 Disussion Thread - Page 250

post #7471 of 12876
To answer your questions, he's getting the DTS core only, via bitstream and LPCM (not the uncompressed lossless version, but the decoded DTS core).

Matching the 300 with the Yammy 1800 (HDMI 1.3a capable) is a total waste! Let him borrow your 1400 to see and hear what HD in HDNA is supposed to be like.
post #7472 of 12876
Me thinks Larry has both the 300 and 1400. He'll tell ya later on!
post #7473 of 12876
Quote:
Originally Posted by Barney_DaPurple1 View Post

...[*]The skip previews "shortcut" works on the 2nd set of Disney's Blu-ray preview. Push Next Chapter button on the 1st set of Disney's preview.
...

What is the "shortcut"?
post #7474 of 12876
Hi lujan,

The shortcut is pressing the Disc Menu button (will skip all the previews). In this case, the option works on the second set of previews. Next chapter button for the first preview, then Disc Menu button to skip the rest.

Larry
post #7475 of 12876
Quote:
Originally Posted by Barney_DaPurple1 View Post

Me thinks Larry has both the 300 and 1400. He'll tell ya later on!

Me thinks you are right, Barney.

My first BR player was the Sony 300 ($400) and I was appalled at the lack of audio & ease of use vs. my Toshiba 35. Going from my memory, the 300 only decodes DD+ and outputs LPCM over HDMI or analog. TruHD uses the standard DD and DTS-HD HR & DTS-HD MA use the DTS “core”. This is what makes this the King of the POS profile 1 players. I purchased this blind w/o research and I was lucky that the retailer took it back with a full refund almost 60 days later. This is the main reason I’m here at the AVS for life!

The Sammy 1400 ($220 as a re-furb) is perfect for all of us with HDMI 1.3 AVRs and waiting for a proper BR player. The 1400 is superior to the 300 in every way, IMHO.

I would like to quote Barney, About sound quality, the only thing to add to that is do not get volume (loudness) mixed with sound quality and accuracy.” Amen, Brother.


Ms. Amber has two very good posts about all of this audio stuff:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=13938320#post13938320

Her reply to another member, LQTM:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=13942979 - post13942979


Larry
post #7476 of 12876
Quote:
Originally Posted by Barney_DaPurple1 View Post

y'all quit hoggn the phone line. "Expected wait, 47 minutes!'

Trying to talk to them about our pause to stop concern. new ticket # btw, 2004731162.

Hi Barney,

When I called, SS put me on hold for 60 minutes. I will try again!
They might be tired of talking about this issue.

Larry
post #7477 of 12876
Quote:
Originally Posted by Barney_DaPurple1 View Post

Nikon, tell your buddy to get rid of his POS 300. I don't think it has a DTS Master Audio decoder, nor can bitstream any lossless codecs. It simply sux!

I thought you have a Pio 92 THX receiver?

Hi Barney

Thanks for your answers ! I did use to have Pio reciever but I returned as it was not currently processing New Line Cinemas 7.1 DTS-HD Master audio (not all speakers icons were being lit on the display) so I traded it for Denon AVR-988 and I simply love it with my Samsung 1400.

OK, getting back to my original question How come my brother-in-law experiences such a huge difference (in his opinion as I have not heard it yet) in sound quality when he switches his Sony 300 to LPCM instead of Bitstream ??? What gives, him and I , we both agree that when he uses Bitstream he only gets the DTS core a lossy stream from the DTS-HD Master Audio 5.1 disc. He claims though that when he switches to LPCM the difference is incredible and he wonders if in fact he gets lossless DTS-HD Master Audio 5.1 after all, that is just converted to MPCM. He even thinks that perhaps there is undocumented feature on teh Sony 300 that they never really advertised. Is there any one out there that can technically explain why he is experiencing such a big difference (once again in his opinion) with LPCM turned on ? I though that the sound quality should be exactly the same from Sony 300 via Bitsream or LPCM. I was under impression that still the only stream that is being decoded is the lossy DTS core - am I correct or am I out to lunch on this.

Thanks once again,
Nikonowski
post #7478 of 12876
Quote:
Originally Posted by laugsbach View Post

Me thinks you are right, Barney.

My first BR player was the Sony 300 ($400) and I was appalled at the lack of audio & ease of use vs. my Toshiba 35. Going from my memory, the 300 only decodes DD+ and outputs LPCM over HDMI or analog. TruHD uses the standard DD and DTS-HD HR & DTS-HD MA use the DTS core. This is what makes this the King of the POS profile 1 players. I purchased this blind w/o research and I was lucky that the retailer took it back with a full refund almost 60 days later. This is the main reason I'm here at the AVS for life!

The Sammy 1400 ($220 as a re-furb) is perfect for all of us with HDMI 1.3 AVR's and waiting for a proper BR player. The 1400 is superior to the 300 in every way, IMHO.

I would like to quote Barney, About sound quality, the only thing to add to that is do not get volume (loudness) mixed with sound quality and accuracy. Amen, Brother.


Ms. Amber has two very good posts about all of this audio stuff:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=13938320#post13938320

Her reply to another member, LQTM:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=13942979 - post13942979


Larry

Thanks laugsbach

However, getting back to my original question How come my brother-in-law experiences such a huge difference (in his opinion as I have not heard it yet) in sound quality when he switches his Sony 300 to LPCM instead of Bitstream ??? What gives, him and I , we both agree that when he uses Bitstream he only gets the DTS core a lossy stream from the DTS-HD Master Audio 5.1 disc. He claims though that when he switches to LPCM the difference is incredible and he wonders if in fact he gets lossless DTS-HD Master Audio 5.1 after all, that is just converted to MPCM. He even thinks that perhaps there is undocumented feature on teh Sony 300 that they never really advertised. Is there any one out there that can technically explain why he is experiencing such a big difference (once again in his opinion) with LPCM turned on ? I though that the sound quality should be exactly the same from Sony 300 via Bitsream or LPCM. I was under impression that still the only stream that is being decoded is the lossy DTS core - am I correct or am I out to lunch on this.

Thanks once again,
Nikonowski
post #7479 of 12876
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nikonowski View Post

Thanks laugsbach

However, getting back to my original question How come my brother-in-law experiences such a huge difference (in his opinion as I have not heard it yet) in sound quality when he switches his Sony 300 to LPCM instead of Bitstream ??? What gives, him and I , we both agree that when he uses Bitstream he only gets the DTS core a lossy stream from the DTS-HD Master Audio 5.1 disc. He claims though that when he switches to LPCM the difference is incredible and he wonders if in fact he gets lossless DTS-HD Master Audio 5.1 after all, that is just converted to MPCM. He even thinks that perhaps there is undocumented feature on teh Sony 300 that they never really advertised. Is there any one out there that can technically explain why he is experiencing such a big difference (once again in his opinion) with LPCM turned on ? I though that the sound quality should be exactly the same from Sony 300 via Bitsream or LPCM. I was under impression that still the only stream that is being decoded is the lossy DTS core - am I correct or am I out to lunch on this.

Thanks once again,
Nikonowski

normally bitstream seems to have a lower overall volume level than when the player decodes internally. So could it be as simple as him needing to turn up the volume when bitstreaming the DTS core, and it will then sound as good as when his sony is decoding it?

Rest assured though, he is only getting the DTS core either by bitstream, or when set to PCM, internally decoded in the Sony player and sent as multichannel PCM. It is extremely unlikely that the sony is "secretly" decoding the dull DTS-MA track, since internal decoding of DTS-MA is the most difficult feature to get in a bluray player - it is computationally intensive and most of the chipsets in use in various BD players dont even support decoding DTS-MA. Infact i think the PS3 is the only machine that can do it so far?
post #7480 of 12876
Quote:
Originally Posted by briansemerick View Post

i think you're a conspiracy theorist. 1.7 works great for me, never had any problems. and if you think a company would brick one of its products and expect product loyalty you're crazy.

Hi there,

I just upgraded to the latest fm ( I assume that is 1.7) Is there a problem with it ? I have not tested anything as of yet - but are you telling me that Samsung took away all HD codec support with teh latest firmware ???? Can you confirm that it the 1.7 is working OK or should I go back to 1.6 ??? What problems do people experience with 1.7 if any and what should I test for ???

Thanks,
Nikonowski
post #7481 of 12876
Any reason why I get no LFE signal to my sub while watching NT2? Samsung 1400 current FW using analog outs to reciever. No problems with any other disks. I took NT2 back to BB and swapped it out and still have the same problem. Any ideas?
post #7482 of 12876
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xerowarp View Post

Any reason why I get no LFE signal to my sub while watching NT2? Samsung 1400 current FW using analog outs to reciever. No problems with any other disks. I took NT2 back to BB and swapped it out and still have the same problem. Any ideas?

I don't know what codec NT2 uses, but here is something to try: Go to your audio settings on the 1400. Go to speaker setup, turn each speaker off then on again (or large from small, etc.) so that you input something on each speaker, but end up with the settings you started with. Next, try changing the digital output from PCM to Bitstream. I recognize that this shouldn't have any effect, but on both fw 1.6 and 1.7 in my system, I had to change to bitstream to get my analog outs to work properly.
post #7483 of 12876
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nikonowski View Post

Is there any one out there that can technically explain why he is experiencing such a big difference (once again in his opinion) with LPCM turned on ?

Thanks once again,
Nikonowski

First, as others have stated, he is hearing the DTS 1.5mbps "core" on both PCM and Bitstream. However, that does not mean that what he is hearing is "identical". There are a number of receivers that bypass various "enhancements" when receiving an LPCM signal. If he has a volume compression setting or some ambience setting turned on, that may account for the difference. At least in my opinion, many of the additional processing features that supposedly enhance the sound often sound worse to me than the raw feed. Also, it is possible that his receiver has a flawed decoder that is mishandling the DTS core.

It shouldn't be hard to test: Turn off all enhancements (such as matrixed 7 channel sound, dynamic compression, "concert hall", whatever) on the receiver (including audyssey). Next, level match between the two settings using an SPL meter. Now have him flip back and forth between the two options until he is clear in his head which is which. Now "blind" him (not literally!) and then you switch back and forth randomly between the two (like a, a, b, a, b, b, a, b, a, a, etc.) and have him record which (LPCM or bitstream) he thinks he is hearing. You can't just switch back and forth, but must occasionally "fake" a change.

If the two sound the same when level matched and all additional processing is turned off, then either post-processing or volume account for the differences. If he can reliably tell a difference between the two formats, then one of the decoders is doing something wrong. If he can't, then you've confirmed what many of us believe accounts for many of the differences reported on forums such as these: placebo effect.
post #7484 of 12876
Thanks cdnewmanpac, I'll give these a try. Anyone know of a good link for v1.6 ? I'm thinking about rolling back if these ideas don't work.
post #7485 of 12876
Hey cdnewmanpac, It worked!!! I switched over to bitstream and NT2 came in great LFE and all. Now will some just explain why Bitstream is working through my analogs?
post #7486 of 12876
thank you all who are working with samsung to fix the horrid pause>>stop problem.

i am confident that one day I will be able to use the restroom and come back to a paused movie! yahooo!

much appreciated
post #7487 of 12876
Bitstream is not working through your analogs. It's just a glitch in the firmware. Maybe someday it will be fixed, but for now there is at least a "work around".
post #7488 of 12876
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nikonowski View Post

Hi there,

I just upgraded to the latest fm ( I assume that is 1.7) Is there a problem with it ? I have not tested anything as of yet - but are you telling me that Samsung took away all HD codec support with teh latest firmware ???? Can you confirm that it the 1.7 is working OK or should I go back to 1.6 ??? What problems do people experience with 1.7 if any and what should I test for ???

Thanks,
Nikonowski

Hi Nikon,

Press the menu button on your remote and do the following:
Setup>System Upgrade>System Information

FW 1.7 is identified by its release date of 080418.

Don't worry about the post you were referring to. All codecs work under 1.7. FWIW, just use 1.7 for now and see how your unit behaves.

Larry
post #7489 of 12876
Quote:
Originally Posted by wizzack View Post

thank you all who are working with samsung to fix the horrid pause>>stop problem.

i am confident that one day I will be able to use the restroom and come back to a paused movie! yahooo!

much appreciated

, I'm with ya 100% wizzack!

Larry
post #7490 of 12876
Smarty-Pants,

Is the sound that is "faux bitstreaming" through the analogs, decoding in LPCM, Dolby True or regular DD ? Can I leave it set to Bitstream for all the other movies or do I have to set it back to PCM?
post #7491 of 12876
LPCM. Just leave it on bitstream for everything.
post #7492 of 12876
Thanks Smarty pants & cdnewmanpac, you two kept me from pulling a lot of hair out of my head.
post #7493 of 12876
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nikonowski View Post

Hi Barney

Thanks for your answers ! I did use to have Pio reciever but I returned as it was not currently processing New Line Cinemas 7.1 DTS-HD Master audio (not all speakers icons were being lit on the display) so I traded it for Denon AVR-988 and I simply love it with my Samsung 1400.

-snip-

Is there any one out there that can technically explain why he is experiencing such a big difference (once again in his opinion) with LPCM turned on ? I though that the sound quality should be exactly the same from Sony 300 via Bitsream or LPCM. I was under impression that still the only stream that is being decoded is the lossy DTS core - am I correct or am I out to lunch on this.

Thanks once again,
Nikonowski

I thought I recognized you from the 7.1 issues last year!

I'm not that smart, so the only brute test I can recommend is let him play The Golden Compass. See, its only track is 7.1 DTS Master Audio. I'll bet someone's paycheck that the only readout he's going to get on his Yammy 1800 is either 5.1 DTS (Bitstream) or 5.1 LPCM (decoded 5.1 DTS core, not full 7.1 DTS Master Audio). Get it?

like the old proverbial saying, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. In contrast, "sounds good" depends on the listener. Unfortunately lossless audio (identical to original master audio quality) has some or few, but not all, influence on how a listener likes the surround sound.
post #7494 of 12876
Just talked to the Samsung Technical Support Team member, which is the same as the CSR. She told me:

1) Our Pause/Stop issue has been forwarded to the Engineering Department and (I will quote ) "they are working on fixing this issue on the next firmware."

2) As usual, no set date for the release has been determined.

Barney reiterated that the important thing is our issue is documented and being looked into by their Engineers. Again, Barney thanked her for her time and looking into our issue.

So I get the feeling that they can and will probably fix this issue once and for all, cool?!
post #7495 of 12876
Cool, now we need to go to work on pushing to make it profile 1.1
post #7496 of 12876
Quote:
Originally Posted by cdnewmanpac View Post

First, as others have stated, he is hearing the DTS 1.5mbps "core" on both PCM and Bitstream. However, that does not mean that what he is hearing is "identical". There are a number of receivers that bypass various "enhancements" when receiving an LPCM signal. If he has a volume compression setting or some ambience setting turned on, that may account for the difference. At least in my opinion, many of the additional processing features that supposedly enhance the sound often sound worse to me than the raw feed. Also, it is possible that his receiver has a flawed decoder that is mishandling the DTS core.

It shouldn't be hard to test: Turn off all enhancements (such as matrixed 7 channel sound, dynamic compression, "concert hall", whatever) on the receiver (including audyssey). Next, level match between the two settings using an SPL meter. Now have him flip back and forth between the two options until he is clear in his head which is which. Now "blind" him (not literally!) and then you switch back and forth randomly between the two (like a, a, b, a, b, b, a, b, a, a, etc.) and have him record which (LPCM or bitstream) he thinks he is hearing. You can't just switch back and forth, but must occasionally "fake" a change.

If the two sound the same when level matched and all additional processing is turned off, then either post-processing or volume account for the differences. If he can reliably tell a difference between the two formats, then one of the decoders is doing something wrong. If he can't, then you've confirmed what many of us believe accounts for many of the differences reported on forums such as these: placebo effect.

Thanks ! What's an SPL meter - I am sorry but I don't know what this is ???
It would be nice if Sammy 1400 displayed bitrate for both sound and audio - just like Sony 300 does - that way my brother in law would notice that bitrate is higher on the Samsung 1400 for sound. Is there a way to know bitrate when LPCM is enabled ???

Thanks,
Nikon
post #7497 of 12876
Quote:
Originally Posted by Barney_DaPurple1 View Post

I thought I recognized you from the 7.1 issues last year!

I'm not that smart, so the only brute test I can recommend is let him play The Golden Compass. See, its only track is 7.1 DTS Master Audio. I'll bet someone's paycheck that the only readout he's going to get on his Yammy 1800 is either 5.1 DTS (Bitstream) or 5.1 LPCM (decoded 5.1 DTS core, not full 7.1 DTS Master Audio). Get it?

like the old proverbial saying, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. In contrast, "sounds good" depends on the listener. Unfortunately lossless audio (identical to original master audio quality) has some or few, but not all, influence on how a listener likes the surround sound.

Barney- good memory mate! How are ya!My 7.1 DTS Master Audio problems were fixed simply by changing receivers - I went with Denon AVR-988 and gave back the Pio 92

He already knows that he doesn't get the 7.1 DTS Master Audio from neither LPCM or bitstream option on his Sony 300 as he testted that on many 7.1 DTS Master Audio BDs, However, he still thinks that the MPCM sound that he gets out of his Sony BD300 is somehow superior to the bitstream i.e. the menus make sounds and overall sound quality seems a lot better to him and he wonders if perhaps he is getting DTS-HD Master Audio after all, but just in MPCM format.

I am not sure how I can prove it as MPCM does not show bitrate inf, which would be handy in case as it would most likely have shown 1.5 Mbs (max bitrate for lossy DTS core only)

Any other suggestions ???

Thanks a million,
Nikonowski
post #7498 of 12876
Quote:
Originally Posted by laugsbach View Post

Hi lujan,

The shortcut is pressing the Disc Menu button (will skip all the previews). In this case, the option works on the second set of previews. Next chapter button for the first preview, then Disc Menu button to skip the rest.

Larry

Thanks laugsbach, now I'll have to check and see if my Harmony 880 has the Disc Menu mapped to it.
post #7499 of 12876
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nikonowski View Post

Thanks ! What's an SPL meter - I am sorry but I don't know what this is ???
It would be nice if Sammy 1400 displayed bitrate for both sound and audio - just like Sony 300 does - that way my brother in law would notice that bitrate is higher on the Samsung 1400 for sound. Is there a way to know bitrate when LPCM is enabled ???

Thanks,
Nikon

SPL=Sound Pressure Level. It is a relatively inexpensive (Radio Shack sells them for about 30 bucks, tho I got mine on line) analog meter that measures the volume of sound reaching your listening position. I use mine to level match speakers in my surround setup (since I don't have any auto calibration), but have used it in the past to compare equipment, codecs, etc. You put the meter in your listening position and play the Sony 300 with output set to bitstream and note the meter level (in dB). You then play the 300 in PCM mode and adjust the volume knob on your receiver until the volume output is the same as with Bitstream. Then, when you flip back and forth, you adjust between the two positions on the volume knob to ensure that the listener is hearing both sources at the same volume.
post #7500 of 12876
Quote:
Originally Posted by Barney_DaPurple1 View Post

Had no audio or video problem watching National Treasures 2: BoS with the 1400. This is an added review to Larry's earlier.

Movie- ***** (Fan of the first NT)
Video- ***** (1080p/24fps Off)
Audio- ***** (5.1 TrueHD Bitstream)
  • Total Loading Time: 2 min 21 sec (w/ pyramid spinning icon)
  • The skip previews "shortcut" works on the 2nd set of Disney's Blu-ray preview. Push Next Chapter button on the 1st set of Disney's preview.

On FW 1.7

I watched it this afternoon, fw 1.5, 1080i out (to 720p proj), 24fps on, TrueHD track via analog out.
I'll skip commenting on the movie except to say that I wish the screenwriters didn't patronize so much ("the water is draining" after they close the spouts, etc.).

Video was good enough to be very distracted by Cage's bad hair plugs and increasingly taut face. Scenes at Mt. Rushmore impressive enough to make me wish LOTR would make an appearance before the death of physical media.

Audio was disappointing: While the center and surrounds were active and engaging, the L/R speakers seemed to mostly contain the soundtrack. This track had no air around it (so it seemed to be coming from below the screen, rather than blooming to a large soundstage) and (I've never had this complaint before, I swear) was too quiet relative to the dialogue. I kept turning up the volume to get some sense of immersion, then would get blown away by someone yelling.

Load times: 32 seconds from disc in to first preview. Chapter skipped the first one, then hit the disc menu (I'm using the "guide" button on my low-end harmony). 61 seconds from hitting the button to getting the disc menu (most of which taken up with a wobbling pyramid thingy). A few seconds from hitting "play" on menu to Disney logo fireworks starting.

No audio or video dropouts with fw 1.5. Getting Longest Day and Patton tomorrow from Netflix, so keeping fingers crossed...
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