The NAD T775/T785 AVRs w/ HDMI 1.3 Thread! - Page 5

ok, the T775 arrived as expected today. I'll get right to it.

There is good and bad, but first things first:

first impressions...very solid build quality. The unit is larger than I assumed it would be from pictures on the website. The toroid unit is very large and takes up most of the left side of the unit (when viewed from the front.) After powering up...I like the look of the receiver. The display is very bright and easy to read. The buttons are plastic and a little clunky, but the volume knob is very solid. Connections on the back (at first glance, but more on this later) appear to be really well constructed. All connections are gold-plated and intelligently organized, as can be gathered by the pictures on the NAD website.

after hooking things up...first blemish is revealed: unless you have very small wire guage speaker cable or use banana plugs you will be VERY frustrated when connecting your cables. The binding posts are, as far as I can tell, completely proprietary types and although they are built very well, with very solid build quality, the inability to connect my spade lugs was really frustrating for me. I had to clip the spade lugs off of my speaker cable, strip the wire and then connect. I have relatively large guage cable (10 guage) and I could barely fit it into the posts (I'll see if I can get some pictures uploaded later). In addition, there is no way to connect the speaker cables from the underside of the binding post: you must connect them from the top, which forced me to get creative with my cable organization and makes me nervous that they will pop out eventually. It appears that NAD is doing everything possible to influence their users to adopt banana plugs. I should note that if you have banana plugs you will likely find this aspect of the setup very painless, and this issue is forgiveable given the solid build quality of unit overall.

audio setup/calibration...the audyssey appears to work as advertised. It is a bit unsettling at first, however, as the manual leads the user to believe that the auto calibration and multiEQ room correction will be completed in separate steps. I spent a good 10-15 minutes looking through all the options in the menu before I realized that both features are completed in the initial calibration step. The T775 will output test tones to learn speaker size, crossover freq and distance, (it will do this for multiple listening positions), and then it will perform calculations for about 2-3 minutes for the room correction. The room correction algorithm is user selectable (after it has been calibrated of course) from the main menu (DSP settings) or directly from the remote. The options are off, flat, audyssey, or NAD (the latter obviously the NAD proprietary response curve advertised on the website). I haven't yet had a chance to fully evaluate each of the settings, but switching quickly between them while listening to source material reveals a great deal of audible difference between each. I can say that it appears that the NAD eq is a bit more bass heavy than the audyssey curve. Of course, I could just be influenced by what is written in the manual, which implies that the NAD curve emphasizes the low end a bit more: "...Thus if we effectively 'remove the walls' with room correction, and set the speakers for flat response, you may find this sounds to bright in the treble and too weak in the bass region..." To me that means that they roll off the high end a bit and beef up the bottom. Only a careful analysis of my room acoustics would answer that for sure. However, I will say that the overall "balance" of the acoustic range did appear to be noticeably better. A review of the audyssey really isn't part of this thread, but rather whether or not it works in the T775. It does. So far I am impressed.

And now we come to the source of my frustration for the past several hours. HDMI audio. The HDMI audio works, but with my PS3 as a source, I can only get it to pass 2 channels of the multichannel LPCM audio. I cannot pinpoint the problem, but I will tell you that I went out about 2 hours ago to purchase an additional HDMI cable to rule that out as a source of the problem. The PS3 thinks it is sending the audio just fine, because in a 5.1 channel mix (such as a movie soundtrack from a blu-ray disc) only the left and right front channels can be heard in the mix when I choose LPCM audio. And this isn't a case of the the PS3 down-mixing the 5.1 to a stereo track--the information simply isn't there. the echoes of the dialogue can be heard as they would be in the left and right speakers for ambiance, but it is clear that the remaining channels are not being processed (for whatever reason) by the T775. I am confident that it is not the cable, so it must be the PS3 or the T775. I have to assume it is either the T775 or an incompatibility between the PS3 and the T775. However, I am skeptical that it has anything to do with the PS3, since it is passing audio over HDMI... This is a digital connection, only the source or the processor can extract the channels! Perhaps this is a timing problem? I am at a loss since I have been spending hours trying different PCM sampling rates (selectable in the PS3), different program material, and different HDMI cables. Another interesting point -- the PS3 will automatically detect what PCM modes it can output via HDMI, and when using this feature while connected to the t775, it only detects 2 channel modes. For me, this is a big problem. If anyone has suggestions I would gladly welcome them. Of course, it passes the dolby digital and DTS bitstreams just fine, but I bought this receiver to listen to uncompressed audio, not only my old DVD collection.

Other impressions...aside from the obvious frustrations over not being able to use one of the features that represent a main factor in my decision to purchase the T775, I am very pleased with the unit overall. My first impressions of the sound quality are more than favorable. The amplifier appears to have room to spare, and then some! It has that signature NAD sound as well--buttery smooth with good open detail in the top end and emphatic punch in the low end. Again these are impressions after only very little listening. I can tell you that when comparing the unit to my previous setup, my impressions are still favorable--I like the NAD more, quite a bit more. That is saying something coming from a well received pre/pro like the Reference 30...I know this could just be a psychosomatic effect from wanting to like the NAD, but I've heard enough audio gear in my time (hopefully) to keep from falling into that trap.

Provided I can get this HDMI audio issue worked out, I will be very happy with the unit. However, I'm afraid that if it can't be fixed, it isn't a drawback I'm willing to live with.

If anyone else has gotten their hands on one of these, can you tell me if you are having similar issues?

I'll have more when I've had more time to play with it, and (hopefully) get the multichannel uncompressed audio working over HDMI.

Regards,
John

...couple of things I forgot to mention...

anyone with a 6.1 speaker configuration (single rear surround speaker) will be happy -- the NAD allows for this. It is user switchable between no rear surround, 1, or 2. With 1 selected, it will output a surround EX or DTS-ES channel to the rear surround left amp channel. I was pleased this was included.

Also, although the pictures of the unit make it look like there are no fans, there are. They are on the bottom of the unit, directly in the middle between the logic section and the amp section. They blow upwards over the large heatsinks that also occupy this space. This seems like a decent design choice...unless of course you want to put this receiver in a rack. In that case it seems to me that it would make more sense if the unit vented front-to-back, rather than bottom-to-top since the heat will only become trapped in the rack. Still, the fans are whisper quiet and are probably not normally needed. I had the unit running for several hours today and it only became slightly warm to the touch. It looks like that talk of efficiency isn't just talk after all.

very interesting, thanks for your comments!

John,

Thanks much for sharing your experience.

"However, I will say that the overall "balance" of the acoustic range did appear to be noticeably better."

Is this NAD Audyssey vs. the other curves, or vs. no EQ?

"A review of the audyssey really isn't part of this thread, but rather whether or not it works in the T775. It does. So far I am impressed."

I hope you'll reconsider the appropriateness of discussing Audyssey.

There are any number of receivers with HDMI audio (that works); my primary motivation for paying much more for the NAD is the possibility of getting close to the quality of the universally praised standalone EQ unit as opposed to the mixed results given by other receivers until now.

In particular I'd appreciate your impressions of how well the Audyssey does at smoothing bass response, front stage imaging, and surround cohesion.

Re HDMI, I suspect based on other receivers' problems that it's the NAD, although I hope that's not the case.

IIRC, early versions of the HK 745 also only gave 2 ch of PCM via HDMI, which was later fixed via f/w update.

Have you contacted your dealer and/or NAD about the issue?

Thanks

I just happened across this post under the DVD Player (stand def) topic, in the Oppo DV-980 thread:

I despair of streaming to the 360, despite many hours of trying to get an acceptable outcome. The codec restrictions are annoying, and the lack of multi-channel sound is a deal-breaker. Using the USB on the 980H was a compromise, and I'm very pleased with the outcome.

I'm glad you're happy with the 360, though. I hope MS loosens up a bit on the codec restrictions... wirelessly streaming 1080p content would be shweet.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...0#post11872290

While these comments are in regards to an XBOX 360 I thought it may be in common with a PS3?

It was more my impression vs. no EQ


I'll discuss whatever everyone deems appropriate. I just didn't want to go way off topic. I have an SPL meter but I actually don't have any test tone material at the moment. With that caveat, it will be hard for me to get you any real data regarding how it smoothes out bass response.

I did some more listening after my original post and played around quite a bit with the EQ. I can tell you that, unquestionably, the most striking difference was in the front sound field. Without EQ, I couldn't believe how compressed the soundstage was...enabling either the Audyssey curve or the NAD curve expanded the soundstage dramatically. It was an incredibly pleasing effect to my ears. Surround conhesion does seem to be improved also, but I'll need more time to make that determination.

I'm also noticing many little things in soundtracks that are well known to me that I hadn't heard before, especially in the dialogue track. The EQ certainly does a good job making this more intelligible.

As for the difference between the Audyssey curve and the NAD curve...my impression was that the Audyssey was a bit brighter; the NAD a bit warmer. Both expanded the soundfield equally and, in my opinion, took the boom out of the bass. The NAD seemed to emphasize the low end a bit more.

The GUI does not display a graphical representation of the room curve, which I found slightly disappointing. If it is doing the calculation anyway, I don't see what it couldn't be provided. I know NAD's design motto is to keep things simple, but I certainly would have liked to see this.

Lastly (for now), the front display shows that the audyssey EQ is on/off with a green/red square next to "Audyssey" in the display.


From what I have read, the NAD is the closest to the standalone EQ. The other receivers that implement Audyssey (at least the ones that I have seen) only do a speaker calibration. The t775 provides much more than that.


I have submitted a request via NAD's website, and tomorrow I will call the dealer. I also fear the worst, but if they can reassure me that this is a fixable problem (at no additional cost since this is a feature listed for the t775), I will be satisfied with the unit until a fix is made available...provided it doesn't take them too long. In the meantime I'll see about finding some other piece of HDMI audio gear with which to test. Perhaps it is just the PS3, although I haven't heard about many complaints with its HDMI audio interface.

thanks for the response. I'm contacting NAD about this, so we'll see what they say.

One thing that I hope is not lost in the midst of all these comments/complaints is my overall satisfaction with the sound quality of the T775. I'm trying to stay as objective as possible, however HDMI caveat aside, I am thoroughly impressed with what NAD has put forward here. If my initial impressions about MultiEQ XT are correct, I suspect that this will become quite the feather in NAD's cap.

John, great to hear that the Audyssey EQ is performing well for you.

"From what I have read, the NAD is the closest to the standalone EQ. The other receivers that implement Audyssey (at least the ones that I have seen) only do a speaker calibration. The t775 provides much more than that."

Many of the Denons have MultEQ X EQ, but many users report the low bass is weak.

Have you listened to any soundtracks with very low bass to see if this has been addressed?

Thanks again.

also, I have read many complaints about the previous generation of NAD receivers putting out hum or hiss in the surround channels. I experienced none of this. When not in action, all the channels were nearly dead silent. If I put my ear within an inch or so of the drivers, I could hear typical silent amplifier hiss, but nothing that would even be noticeable in a normal seating position in an otherwise quiet room.

I listened to selected parts of 300 on blu-ray, which has a very strong bass track. I listened to this recently on my old setup, and I would say that the level of bass on the t775 with MultiEQ is about the same. That is to say: very loud. Deep bass extension didn't seem limited to me, anyway.

I suspect that this is one of the reasons NAD included their own custom EQ. The NAD definitely emphasizes deep bass more than the standard audyssey curve. If the NAD curve was not included, my comments would probably echo those of these Denon users.

Every receiver and pre-pro that has Audyssey does more than speaker calibration. In fact, automatic distance and level setting is usually the part that the manufacturer supplies, with Audyssey supplying the room correction/EQ technology. If you see a device with Audyssey, then that device does equalization.
Is your NAD plugged into a TV via HDMI? If so, could you unplug it from the TV or turning the TV off and then play a 5.1-channel PCM track. Just curious if that will give you all 5.1 channels.

Sanjay

John,

The fact that NAD describes its target curve as it does is very gratifying. About a year or so ago, NAD told me that they were going to use Audyssey and I told them that I had the pro unit and cautioned them about the stock curve, which clarifies, but kills bass output and make the top end too bright and aggressive and they seemed to be surprised by that. I don't know if I accidentally prodded them to examine this or whether it was going to happen any way, but their description makes a lot of sense given what I heard with the pro unit, so that gives the NAD unit a *huge* advantage over other units that likely just accepted the "one right answer" (their words) theory Audyssey has. I was able to return my Audyssey, but hopefully they're starting to get it now, that the stock curves, if not downright incorrect, don't work with everyone's room or system.

Hi John,

Thanks for your comments - very useful and you have my sympathy regarding the hdmi sound problem - frustrating to say the least!

Good luck with sorting it out

Thanks for sharing your thoughts so far John - really appreciate this

In regards to your HDMI issue (sorry if this sounds a little obvious) Have you tried 4/6 Channel stereo (Stereo enhanced modes) on your 775 using a CD using your same HDMI. This will tell you that you have indeed all channels fired up - just a thought.

Have you also the latest firmware release on your PS3 that improves audio capabilities?

Keep plugging away John - its certainly only a glitch - Nad would not have designed this amp to only allow 2 channels down the HDMI.

Now - more juicy info and some pics please


Ken

John-
As I, too, have a PS3, and am getting a 785, I am concerned about this issue. Probably a stupid question, but have you switched between Bitstream and LCM on the PS3? believe I read in the Blu-ray Player Forum that it should be set to LCM. Please keep us updated.

Jacksonian-
What sets the NAD apart from the PE and other rec'rs is sound quality. In this thread (prob. p.2), I posted links to a number of reviews of older NAD rec'rs extolling their sound quality. In one the reviewer compared a NAD rec'r to a Halo PreAmp and Power Amp costing 4 times as much and found little difference in sound. Read the reviews. Of course, an A/B comparison is best, but your dealer is right in his opinion, IMHO

I also received one of the first T775s and have the same problem. I contacted NAD to be told that they have a solution for this (I believe it is going to require a new board replacement, but they still are confirming how to go about the update). Will let you know. My guess is that the first few units they released are going to have this issue.

Similar to jnc1, I am impressed with the receiver. Once this issue is resolved I will be very happy. It sounds great, lots of power, and an acceptable SNR.

I am impressed with the user interface. Very clean and snappy once you figure out how to use it.

If anyone has any questions about it let me know.

Yes, I have it set to LPCM. I have tried everything. In the sound menu, I have tried every possible mode, both individually (e.g. selecting ONLY LPCM 5.1 44.1Khz), and with all options selected. I have tried setting the BD/DVD HDMI audio setting to LPCM. I even switched back and forth between these several times to see if I could coax something out of it (assuming some incompatibility/handshaking problem.) Additionally, I know that all my channels are connected because I can get it to play a standard DD or DTS bitstream (compressed) over HDMI and, of course, audio is played over all 6 speakers + subwoofer.

I called NAD tech support this morning and spoke with a project manager. It was a bit more discouraging actually because he actually appeared to be a bit shaky on the details, but didn't think that the T775/785 would be able to accept LPCM multichannel audio! This surprised me to say the least. He suggested that I try two things (both of which I am fairly certain I already did): set the HDMI audio output to DD and DTS [i]only[i], with no LPCM modes set (which sounds suspiciously like "in order to get multichannel audio, you need to listen to the compressed bitstream only," or selecting only the 5.1 44.1Khz PCM format. I swear I tried this already to no avail, but I'll give it another go. I have a sinking feeling that I am up the creek without a paddle on this issue.

I double-checked the NAD website on this, because I was sure it stated that it will accept 7.1 PCM audio over HDMI, but I noticed that they are very careful to say "digital audio via HDMI," and nothing more. I am very frustrated with this.

I have scheduled a call-back to the manager later today when I am home and able to work through some things with him (unfortunately, I have to work for a living during the day ), so we'll see what happens.

Great to hear that I'm not the only one! Please do let us know whatever you find out. The person I spoke with at NAD seems to be unaware of the problem and in fact seemed genuinely misinformed about the nature of multichannel LPCM over HDMI.

Thanks for the update

Well, kudos if you provided the impetus to get the NAD target curve! I obviously can't speak for the audyssey standalone unit, neither can I speak for other receivers with this feature, but I can say that I am very impressed with it in the NAD T775. I've never heard such a wide open soundstage in my room.

If the auto setting on the PS3 HDMI audio shows only 2-channels being available, then the 775 is sending the EDID information to the PS3 saying it can only process 2 channel PCM. Did you then manually turn on the 5.1 PCM options in the PS3 (HDMI audio setting)? Does the NAD show you what signal you are getting? Curious!

thought I should also mention that I even tried resetting my PS3 to factory defaults, and then setting it up for HDMI through the initial setup menu. That, of course, also does not work. Unfortunately until I can get a real answer to this issue, and it appears that dan1010 has discovered it in the form of hardware replacement, I'll have to caution potential buyers who want to get multichannel LPCM out of the T775/785/175.

I got my answer from the web help center. I'll be happy once this is fixed (as long as I don't have to pay anymore!).

I think your right, the NAD is only reporting it can do 2 channels. However, they are offering a fix for this.

Using the display key, you can see what the incoming signal is and how many channels (D2.0 48k).

yes I did this. I tried every possible LPCM setting in the PS3, both individually and "grouped together" (i.e. selecting all the possible modes and letting the PS3 choose the most appropriate output).

The audio output on the PS3 shows "LPCM multichannel 5.1" when I have LPCM selected in the BD/DVD HDMI audio output setting and have chosen the PCM/TrueHD soundtrack in the menu on the blu-ray movie itself. The PS3 appears to be operating normally. Again, when these settings are used, what I hear on the NAD are the front L/R channels of the multichannel mix, not a stereo downconversion. Checking the display for the NAD itself confirms that it thinks it is only receiving a stereo input. A stereo downmix would have all the audio information from the 5.1/6.1/7.1 mix, this is not the case when I select these settings. When I select any of the 2-channel LPCM modes in the ps3 sound menu for hdmi, then I hear the stereo downmix, but of course this is not true multichannel uncompressed sound: it is a stereo mix of the multichannel, which then I can process with the T775's DSP with any 2 channel surround mode, such as DTS Neo:6, Dobly Pro Logic, Pro Logic IIx, etc. etc.

the only way I can get the NAD to display that is accepting a multichannel input is by selecting the compressed DD or DTS bitstream.

I also submitted this question via the web help center. I assume then that I'll get the same answer. I'll also be happy if a free fix is available

yes that is precisely what mine shows as well.

just reread this post. Sorry if I misread your question. Your suspicion appears to be correct -- if I let the PS3 automatically choose what LPCM modes it can output to the NAD, it comes back with only the DD, DTS, and the 2-channel PCM modes. Obviously the NAD must be telling the PS3 that it can only accept two channels of PCM. Very curious indeed.

can you tell me how long it took them to reply to your question via the web help center? I received a message from them saying that "due to vacations" it would likely be a while before anyone got back to me...