The NAD T775/T785 AVRs w/ HDMI 1.3 Thread! - Page 28

I call it "kicking the turtle". Or like when you push the button on the elevator like you're killing aliens. With 60Hz sources and TVs that can't even keep up with that, sending the info at twice the speed seems truly ridiculous.

I'm glad C-net can't see it because I couldn't figure out how it could possibly make a difference.

OK, the point is really whether your display can refresh at an even multiple of 24 fps.
Lets say it can refresh at 72 Hz like a lot of the pioneers. Assuming it can also accept 1080p24, then it is getting the 'native' film signal and it just has to display each actual frame three times to fit the 72 Hz refresh - no judder.

Or in the case of the old PAL TVs at 50Hz, just speed up the film by 4% and display each frame twice, voila 50Hz refresh and no judder

The problem with 60Hz refresh is that something (player or TV) has to do a 3:2 pull-down. The problem is not that hardware can't do it, the problem is that the process itself causes judder

What happens is that something (player or TV) displays frame 1 for 3 cycles, then frame 2 for 2 cycles, then Frame 3 for 3 cycles, then frame 4 for 2 cycles. this does a perfect job of fitting 24fps into a 60 Hz refresh, but if you have a panning shot (or any motion really) you get a jerky effect. The background will take 50% longer to move every other frame. Most people in the US have adapted to it because their TVs have always done it (always been 60Hz based) so they don't tend to notice it. Now that 60Hz displays are appearing in the UK, we are seeing it for the first time, and some of us see it as really jerky motion - my girlfriend doesn't see it at all, but it bugs me a lot.
This is why there is a lot of interest in the whole issue of 24 fps output from the player into a display which accepts it and (this is the crucial bit) can refresh at an exact multiple of 24.

Like I say, a lot of people just aren't affected by it/can't see it - I wish I was one of them :-)

I use a 10-meter cobalt HDMI cable (www.cobaltcable.com) to connect from the T775 to a VPL-VW50 with no problem at all. The cable between my PS3 and the NAD is audioquest's lowest-cost HDMI cable--I would have gone with a cobalt cable for this run as well, but they were back-ordered at the time, and my local dealer carries audioquest. These cables aren't cheap in an absolute sense, but a.) they aren't terribly expensive and b.) they work.

"The latest generation TVs are advertising "120 Hz" which (I thought) is claimed to make pulldown processing smoother (via interpolation) since 24 divides evenly into 120."

No interpolation needed, the 24/s frame is simply repeated 5 times.

"2:2 pulls 60 back into 24, usually on a high-end display."

Actually 50 into 24 as Max described.

I noticed it before but I just took it as a necessary evil of home video. Now that I have a display that will accept a 24p signal, it is much more bothersome when I watch a display that only accepts 30p. It really makes a big difference--watching video in its native framerate makes for a much smoother experience. The home theater video experience isn't only about resolution, although the marketing departments of most display manufacturers seem to want us to think so.

Could be, but I'm pretty sure I've also see it called that when a new display recognized and discards the extra frame, then reformats to, typically, 48Hz. Of course, sometimes I get these explanations from sales guys, then have to find out that they didn't understand it when the engineer explained it to them. Or maybe they just misuse that term or maybe they had a different term I didn't remember. The SP7210 drops the 3:2 pulldown.

I have an update on the 1080p problem I've experienced with my 775 for past 6 weeks. No thanks to NAD or my dealer, I acquired the latest firmware update and applied it. (Thank you Alimentall.) This was the Dec 4, 07 release that upgrades MCU to v1.12. (I had v1.06.) It also upgrades DSP to 1.02a. The process was quick and painless, although I had to first purchase an 'old fashion' RS-232 cable from Radio Shack.

Note: this same upgrade works on 765, 775 and 785.

I was very nervous after hooking it back up and trying it out because if it didn't make a big difference I would be forced to return the whole unit and try another brand. I played Planet Earth from BD player. It always defaults to 1080i/60 and it looked fantastic and sounded great. So at the very least I was happy it didn't get worse. Now comes the true test when I switch BD output to 1080p. But to my surprise, it was already in 1080p60 mode! Because the picture was so stable it fooled me into thinking it was only 1080i.

Bottom line: The firmware upgrade turned it into a completely different machine. HDMI output improved dramatically; It seemed like the Audyssey calibration went smoother; the sound even seemed improved (although this last one was probably just my imagination because I was happier.)

Another benefit of the HDMI improvement was when switching HD channels on my cable box. Previously, it had trouble when switching from certain 1080i channels to a 720p channel. I would get several seconds of snow and some loud pops and squawks in my speakers coming from the 775 as it switched resolutions. Now, HD channel surfing is much smoother.

NAD should NEVER have shipped out any units with that old firmware. At the very least, they should have notified users about the upgrade as soon as they registered. Because you loose all saved settings during upgrade process, everybody needs to apply this upgrade before they hook it up for first time. Otherwise, you have to redo everything.

It's still not 100% perfect. I occasionally see a small glitch while watching in 1080p, but given recent discussions here about all the known issues with HDMI, I can put up with that until the next upgrade.

I've read all the good stories about NAD support, but frankly, I think they are horrible. They wouldn't even acknowledge there was a firmware upgrade when I first contacted them. But they get a passing grade because at least they did address and fix a known problem.

I rec'd an email from NAD stating that all T785s will be shipping with FW 1.10 or 1.12, and there is no significant difference between the two.
Guess the T775 was the beta test for the T785.

For any of you have owned or closely A/Bed NAD and B&K electronics, how would you describe the sonic differences on music and movies? Thanks.

I think this is sometimes Sales/marketing vs Engineering. Too often the Sales people push that they can not make numbers without the right products and features and the pressure to release something without proper testing is a bit overwhelming. I have seen known issues been released before as holding back the product may mean somebody's job. It is always a fine line which is sometimes it is best to wait when small companies release new products. I don't know anything about NAD operations but sometimes the way businesses react is looking at short term numbers and pressures

How do you check the firmware release? Sorry if this is a repeat question. Does themanual contain how to update , etc.... The 775 manual I downloaded didn't say anything. My 785 should be delivered to the house today!

If someone can tell me quickly how to check the firmware, I will run home during lunch and check my 785 that I received approximately 2 weeks ago and report back to everyone. I am at work and I don't have time to look through the threads to get the information. Thanks.

Scott

Press the two source buttons at the same time.

As far as NAD service, it's just knowing the right person to ask, usually. The dealer should have known the right person to ask. That's their job.

BTW, Mr Taxman, just make sure your cable is a good, well engineered cable! At 1080p60, that's *huge* data rate and some cables can have a hard time with it.

These guys are great - http://www.accellcables.com/ as a fer instance.

Thats not good - but as Alimentall suggests - that also sounds like a poor dealer to me..

Interestingly, A major Nad AV dealer in the UK has stated that they will not stock the new Nad's due to no decoding of Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD

Ken

Well done mate, look forward to hearing your opinions

Ken

Probably because they don't sell players that do their jobs and unpack the info. It's like not carrying any receivers because *none* of them decode MPEG2 or MPEG4 video. Why do sources unpack one, but not the other? Well, their loss, IMO. You can always carry both and let the customer decide. I wouldn't recommend anyone buying an HD-DVD or BD that doesn't unpack the audio and format to PCM. After all, if you then try to pass it on to the TV over HDMI, how will that work if it hasn't been unpacked? Maybe it will, but I suspect it wouldn't.

Sigh, NONE of the players on the market will transcode DTD-HD MA to PCM. Not a single one. You can blame it on the players all you want but thats the way it is. Hell, a lot of the BD players won't even handle TrueHD.

You can argue that the processing should happen in the player but it's a little harder to defend NAD's decision to not include this processing on a new $2500 receiver when a $400 Onkyo receiver can do it.


Um, it works perfectly, how do you think all of the people with HD players are listening to the new formats on their Onkyos, Denons, Yamahas, Marantzes, and Pioneers?

With all due respect John, you know a hell of a lot about audio but I don't think you have a good grasp of how all of the new HD video and audio codecs work.

That's why I don't even *recommend* any of this crap to my customers. Well, certainly not BD. I do tell people to buy an inexpensive HD-DVD until things get worked out.
Maybe. I still think the player should do it. They were the ones to choose the formats! These formats don't work on anything else. If they refuse to unpack it, then, yes, NAD will have to add it in and pay the royalties. They won't have a choice. But yeah, I'm biased because I think BD was *stupid* and HD-DVD doesn't quite have it right yet either.
AND the TV? How do you format the HDMI bitstream for both a multi-channel compressed stream and an uncompressed stereo stream *unless* the TV can handle these formats *or* the unit is sending out both MC and 2.0 at the same time.
I don't get any grasp based on what people tell me. I get a grasp when things actually work in front of me. I hear all kinds of crap from sales reps all day, so when I can hook it up and it works, then it works. Until then, I'm skeptical of everything. Almost none of our customers have BD or HD-DVD. I have an HD-DVD, but I don't even have it plugged in to my receiver. I think most of it is just a waste until they get it together. I don't blame NAD for not dicking around with not fully baked formats.

BTW, if anyone wants a hilarious read, go to the Toshiba website and look at their players and then go to the audio section and read the full paragraph of disclaimers they have going. I wanted to cut and paste it, but it wouldn't let me since it's Flash. Hysterical. Read that and you'll forgive NAD. They even say something like "up to 7.1 channels, only 5.1 supported" in there.

Moreover, looking at the BD discs with DTS-MA, 95%+ of them have only old fashioned, bandwidth hungry MPEG2 video and I doubt more than 1 in 10 *if that* have actual 7.1 content. Maybe none. So, I rest my case that this stuff isn't ready for prime time and if a dealer is willing to sell half baked HD-DVD and BD, but not willing to sell a product as good as a T785, we're all going to hell in a hand basket. I remember arguing with Sanjay about how there *must* be 7.1 audio on HD-DVD and BD because they support it. Boy did I feel like an idiot. He was right, I was way wrong. I think anyone who buys a BD or HD-DVD movie is getting ripped off. I have a feeling that the T785 that just came in will be in my system when both of these formats have failed or have been relegated to a minor position in the scheme of A/V and people are downloading HD movies to their hard drive.

Well, that is ONE approach. Meanwhile, they are missing out on a lot of high quality video and audio that is available right now. FWIW, I followed your approach and purchased an HD-A3 a couple of months ago. Still waiting for a proper BD player, it looks like the BD30 is really close. Unfortunately, the new Sammy universal player is a dud.


But to be fair, most early DVD players (and a lot of current and later ones for that matter) had to bitstream DD/DTS to the receiver. Why should it be different for the new codecs? It's not like you can't listen to the DD/DTS core from the soundtracks on "legacy" equipment. I certainly agree that it would be nice if the players decoded everything for legacy equipment but that would drive the costs up in an already extremely price conscious market.


What possible reason would there be for doing both? The current players can send a downmixed 2-channel PCM version of the soundtrack through HDMI.


Fair enough. I'm much the same way for my job.

My opinion is that while the BD format is half-baked, the HD format is pretty solid (still got work to do though). In any case, while the delivery and handling of the advanced audio codecs is still being hammered out, the codecs themselves are fully developed. IMO, NAD should have accounted for them when designing from scratch receivers costing over $2000. Again, while I would never buy one, you can get an Onkyo for about $400 street that decodes these formats.

Anyway, I'm frustrated about things too. I'm not defending the players so much as pointing out the fact that all of the big Japanese manfs have included the new codecs to handle player shortcomings, so NAD should too.

BTW, before I come off as just a NAD basher, I think it's great that a smaller sound quality-oriented company has included meaningful new features (Audyssey, multi PCM support, etc) without overcomplicating things. With advanced audio support, I think these new receivers would really be something.

So how difficult will it be to include support for those codecs in the future? Is it a hardware (modular construction, etc) or a firmware job? I was just rooting around in some posts from a T763 thread (looking for a hint as to how firmware updates might be installed at home - something to do with a PC control software suite?), and it seemed that for that generation of receivers it was a combination of new boards and/or new firmware. For the 773, a firmware update seemed to suffice. I'd post the URLs, but for newbies it is forbidden.

Be interesting to see where the 775 and 785 will stand.

I understand and NAD could be fighting upstream or maybe all the next gen players will have 7.1 unpacking built in, who knows. I'm just tired of the HDMI BS, audio and video included. If you think I'm hardcore, there are dealers who won't sell or install anything HDMI, they just use component only. I'm not that bad, but I wonder sometimes if I shouldn't be........

In any case, hopefully NAD will come out with a software update that handles it and hopefully, we as consumers won't have to pay a fee to DTS and Dolby to do it.

I agree that NAD is a "sound quality-oriented company" and that is why they decided not to go with the half ass new codecs. If you look at those receivers that have included the new formats, they are full of various problems. I looked into the Onkyo and Denon AVR's and the forums are filled with complaints and problems. I had an onkyo at one time (yes it was probably 15 years ago) and it ran very hot and the sound quality never lived up to my expectations.

I personally have decided to wait on the HD/BD player that can live up to the hype. I thought the Samsung BD-UP5000 was going to do the trick and of course they release a product that does not work as advertised. IMO it is easy to understand why NAD is waiting to see how the new codecs play out, especially when the "video" players that are suppose to be pushing the new formats have not been able to produce one player that works properly.

I sat on the sidelines and waited to upgrade to a HDMI switching AVR that had a great sound first, then the various codecs second. True the NAD does not offer the newest codecs yet, but I promise anyone thinking of buying the 785 for 2 channel or HT sound, you will not be disappointed. The Audyssey Mutli EQ NAD Curve sounds great, the setup was probably the easiest setup I have experienced, and the ipod interface works like a charm.

I know I am very hyped about this receiver, but again I never had a receiver that had such clean beautiful sound. I have had a Onkyo, Pioneer and Harman Kardon in the past and none of them could come close to the sound I am getting out of my NAD 785. Good luck on choosing an AVR, but if the decision is based on 2 new missing codecs, then I think you are making a wrong choice, especially when it comes to sound quality.

I was not able to make it home earlier to see which version of firmware came with my 785, but I will check tonight and post.

Scott

I only got my T775 for HDMI audio - I already have an HDMI video switcher, but I'm upset that HDMI made me do the upgrade to get the latest sound quality. My old T773 was great with analog inputs, but once I got a new HDMI enabled source component there wasn't a second set of analog inputs.

That said, all I use my T775 for is HDMI audio - I still have to use another HDMI cable to go from the T775 to my video switcher. So I've only saved a couple of cables and I inherit a bunch of potential HDMI issues. More time spent on upgrading the optical/coax audio spec would have saved a lot of headaches for hardware vendors. DVI would have been just fine for handling the video.

Well, here I'm just trying to point out that PCM is a much more universal format, so unpacking it before sending it out means it's much more compatible with anything to which it's attached.

I don't think it makes much sense for the players to unpack it myself. I'm sure theres lots of people who connect a player directly to the TV and there would be no sense unpacking it in that case. Obviously it would be nice if some players did unpack it and I'm surprised theres not any that do because they could sell it.

I was among the first people to get a DVD player when they came out, and that was a big disappointment to me. Movies were expensive and few. So I waited on getting HD or BD as well. But now those are both taking off - surprisingly and theres now several movies to rent or buy. I just got the new Toshiba HD-A3 because it had decent reviews and less than $200. I would like to get a PS3 if they go down in price. But I'm not going to be buying many movies when I can rent for so much cheaper. Heck, if you think its bad now with HDMI and Dolby HD etc. just wait a couple more years when most movies are "purchased" online. More copy protection schemes, codecs, etc.

All this is based on the assumption the display is always or even should be at a single preset refresh rate, which is not the case. I have the Panasonic TH-50PF10UK and it does 48/60/96 (they call it 50/60/100, but the engineers have clarified what it really means); 48 (2x24) & 96 (4x24) are only avail with 24p input source material, anything else & the unit auto switches back to 60. To further that, there is *no processing of 24p signal short of some anomaly, so what goes in at 24 comes out untouched; only the panel refresh is at 96 (100) for smoother pq. That said, there is absolutely no reason to run a display at 120 for both 24 & 60 inputs, total waste & from what I hear doesn't help pq.

According to a 12/31 NY Times article, the format war has had a predictable result - most consumers are sitting on the sidelines, even those with HDTVs.

As a newbie poster I can't post the URL here, but at nytimes.com search on "DVD War Over High Definition" and it will pull up the article.

You would have thought that Beta vs VHS would have taught the industry something. I guess not.

So NAD just announced, or at least leaked to the gadget blogs, a couple of integrated CD/DVD receivers. Not strictly speaking a 775/785 comment, but interesting that they're including upconversion on these new ones, no?

http://www.engadgethd.com/2008/01/03...one-receivers/