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Nero Digital

post #1 of 25
9/5/07 at 11:43am
Thread Starter 
Has anyone heard of a format called "Nero Digital"
can anyone tell me where i can find a device that can support this format?
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post #2 of 25
9/5/07 at 11:56am
Quote:
Originally Posted by starctk View Post

Has anyone heard of a format called "Nero Digital"
can anyone tell me where i can find a device that can support this format?

There are or were a few US devices that support it. I think the Nero Digital site will detail which ones.

I have tried Nero Digital and it is a good mp4 codec but because of its long standing limited acceptance in the US I stopped messing with it. IMHO now that h264 seems to be taking off Nero Digital is even less attractive. I do not know this for sure but I do not believe that Nero Digital offers any advantages over h264.
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post #3 of 25
9/5/07 at 1:35pm
Thread Starter 
interesting... the reason i am interested in nero digital is because i heard it's a H.264 codec and it supports up to 1080p.
anyone has any idea?
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post #4 of 25
9/5/07 at 2:23pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by starctk View Post

interesting... the reason i am interested in nero digital is because i heard it's a H.264 codec and it supports up to 1080p.
anyone has any idea?

Nero Digital is mp4, h264 is mp4 but they are not the same. Nero Digital is mp4 (not h264) with Nero's own proprietary twist. h264 is mp4 with a windows media video twist. h264 will do 1080p. h264 is currently being used quite a bit in Europe, DVB HD broadcasts and so on. h264 is much more universally accepted than Nero Digital. I think h264 is recognized as being the best lossy codec for preserving picture quality while producing the smallest file size.
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post #5 of 25
9/5/07 at 3:58pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by starctk View Post

interesting... the reason i am interested in nero digital is because i heard it's a H.264 codec and it supports up to 1080p.
anyone has any idea?

Sure... I'd be glad to help.

Quote:
Originally Posted by digitalkid2 View Post

Nero Digital is mp4, h264 is mp4 but they are not the same. Nero Digital is mp4 (not h264) with Nero's own proprietary twist. h264 is mp4 with a windows media video twist.

whoa there cowboy, lets get the facts straight.

H.264 is not mpeg4 with a WMV twist. You're probably confusing AVC with VC1. VC1 is an advanced Microsoft proprietary video codec that is supported in blu-ray and HD-DVD (as is AVC).

However Nero Digital is based on five open ISO MPEG4 standards.
  • H.263 MPEG4 video
  • H.264 MPEG4 video
  • LC-AAC audio
  • HE-AAC audio
  • MP4 file format container

There are some additions that Nero utilizes. I am not sure but I think the following fall into that category:
  • Support for subtitle tracks
  • Support for multiple audio tracks
  • Support for chapter markers


Quote:
Originally Posted by digitalkid2 View Post

h264 is much more universally accepted than Nero Digital. I think h264 is recognized as being the best lossy codec for preserving picture quality while producing the smallest file size.

If you look at the Nero Digital profiles, they are separated into 2 main categories. First there is the AVC profiles (AVC is synonymous with H.264). Then you have the non-AVC profiles. These are the H.263 profiles.

Each group has different profiles such as mobile, portable, standard, cinema, and HDTV.

starctk, the HDTV profiles can both do 1080P. However, you'll be hard pressed to find content in 1080P unless you have gotten it produced professionally (also from HD-DVD and Blu-ray rips), or if you have some pretty high end equipment. Broadcast in the US is currently limited to 1080i.

Quote:
Originally Posted by digitalkid2 View Post

h264 is much more universally accepted than Nero Digital.

Nero Digital is a variant (or flavor) of H.264. When you say H.264 is much more universally accepted, that's like saying cars are much more universally accepted than a Ford. In other words, Nero Digital is a subset of H.264. Another subset of H.264 would be Apple.

Quote:
Originally Posted by digitalkid2 View Post

I think h264 is recognized as being the best lossy codec for preserving picture quality while producing the smallest file size.

I agree. This seems to be the industry consensus. Although you will have the VC1 fans.
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post #6 of 25
9/5/07 at 4:55pm
Nero Digital will not pass AC3.
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post #7 of 25
9/5/07 at 5:04pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by djkoo19 View Post

Sure... I'd be glad to help.



whoa there cowboy, lets get the facts straight.

H.264 is not mpeg4 with a WMV twist. You're probably confusing AVC with VC1. VC1 is an advanced Microsoft proprietary video codec that is supported in blu-ray and HD-DVD (as is AVC).

However Nero Digital is based on five open ISO MPEG4 standards.
  • H.263 MPEG4 video
  • H.264 MPEG4 video
  • LC-AAC audio
  • HE-AAC audio
  • MP4 file format container

There are some additions that Nero utilizes. I am not sure but I think the following fall into that category:
  • Support for subtitle tracks
  • Support for multiple audio tracks
  • Support for chapter markers




If you look at the Nero Digital profiles, they are separated into 2 main categories. First there is the AVC profiles (AVC is synonymous with H.264). Then you have the non-AVC profiles. These are the H.263 profiles.

Each group has different profiles such as mobile, portable, standard, cinema, and HDTV.

starctk, the HDTV profiles can both do 1080P. However, you'll be hard pressed to find content in 1080P unless you have gotten it produced professionally (also from HD-DVD and Blu-ray rips), or if you have some pretty high end equipment. Broadcast in the US is currently limited to 1080i.



Nero Digital is a variant (or flavor) of H.264. When you say H.264 is much more universally accepted, that's like saying cars are much more universally accepted than a Ford. In other words, Nero Digital is a subset of H.264. Another subset of H.264 would be Apple.



I agree. This seems to be the industry consensus. Although you will have the VC1 fans.

Thank you for the information and for setting me straight.

I did have VC1 mixed up in the h264 bucket.

I am still somewhat confused however, what flavor of h264 is being broadcast in Europe> DVB HD for example? What flavor of h264 is planned and is already in use in the USA for a few of the satellite networks. It is my understanding that most of the digital HD broadcasting (not OTA) is moving in the direction of h264....what flavor is that? I am fairly certain it is not Nero Digital.
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post #8 of 25
9/6/07 at 9:25am
Quote:
Originally Posted by digitalkid2 View Post

Thank you for the information and for setting me straight.

I did have VC1 mixed up in the h264 bucket.

I am still somewhat confused however, what flavor of h264 is being broadcast in Europe> DVB HD for example? What flavor of h264 is planned and is already in use in the USA for a few of the satellite networks. It is my understanding that most of the digital HD broadcasting (not OTA) is moving in the direction of h264....what flavor is that? I am fairly certain it is not Nero Digital.

I'm not sure which flavor will be used. However one H.264 codec can be used for encoding while you can use another decoder from another company, hence "open standard."
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post #9 of 25
9/7/07 at 9:11am
Stay away from Nero, and stick with AVC proper. Otherwise it will bite you in the ass later on when you have a 2000+ movie catalog encoded in Nero Blah-blah codec and your new super cool toy to replace all toys ends up supporting the official H.264 codec and the Nero codec is just a wee bit different, but just enough to make them incompatible in one way or another. It is the kiss of death. What are you gonna do when Nero Digital dies and no hardware manufacturers support it(there is no good reason compelling them to support nero today or in the future)-reencode all those 2000+ movies you no longer have the source to, into a proper ISO codec and waste 2 months of your time working 24/7?

How many hardware manufacturers are supporting Nero Digital? You could probably count the number on one hand. Maybe I am wrong-but I doubt it. Nero has not and will not become a defacto standard.

Look at Windows Media-It would never have been accepted into either HD optical format if it had remained a closed proprietary codec and not undergone standardization. How many closed codecs have been widely accepted?

Lets see:
North American Broadcast: ATSC Mpeg2
Cable Mpeg2
Europe: DVB (Mpeg2 & AVC)
Japan: Mpeg2
Most Other Countries: DVB
0 proprietary codecs, for good reason.

(EDIT: One could say that Apple Quicktime has become a standard for things like trailers)
How many (Non HTPC) players support quicktime playback? Not many and those that do typically only support qt files with embedded H.264 video in the container)
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post #10 of 25
9/7/07 at 9:25am
Quote:
Originally Posted by qz3fwd View Post

Stay away from Nero, and stick with AVC proper. Otherwise it will bite you in the ass later on when you have a 2000+ movie catalog encoded in Nero Blah-blah codec and your new super cool toy to replace all toys ends up supporting the official H.264 codec and the Nero codec is just a wee bit different, but just enough to make them incompatible in one way or another. It is the kiss of death. What are you gonna do when Nero Digital dies and no hardware manufacturers support it(there is no good reason compelling them to support nero today or in the future)-reencode all those 2000+ movies you no longer have the source to, into a proper ISO codec and waste 2 months of your time working 24/7?

How many hardware manufacturers are supporting Nero Digital? You could probably count the number on one hand. Maybe I am wrong-but I doubt it. Nero has not and will not become a defacto standard.

Look at Windows Media-It would never have been accepted into either HD optical format if it had remained a closed proprietary codec and not undergone standardization. How many closed codecs have been widely accepted?

Lets see:
North American Broadcast: ATSC Mpeg2
Cable Mpeg2
Europe: DVB (Mpeg2 & AVC)
Japan: Mpeg2
Most Other Countries: DVB
0 proprietary codecs, for good reason.

(EDIT: One could say that Apple Quicktime has become a standard for things like trailers)
How many (Non HTPC) players support quicktime playback? Not many and those that do typically only support qt files with embedded H.264 video in the container)

That about covers it. Stay away from Nero!
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post #11 of 25
9/7/07 at 1:04pm
There is some misinformation and perhaps bad advice contained in this thread. As a starter anyone interested should read at least this from wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H264 on the subject. Nero Digital is fully mpeg-4 compliant but that includes a lot of choices and even "private data" that is permitted by the standard. In any event I would suggest you try Nero Digital for yourself, it has a lot of positive aspects. If you want to change to "h.264" you can do a simple transcode from whatever profile you selected. Note that Nero is due for a major upgrade in October of 2007 so you might get the free trial package now but maybe wait to purchase.

Shark
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post #12 of 25
9/7/07 at 1:46pm
No-just multiplex your H.264 video stream and audio into a plain vanilla transport stream container and forget about Nero Digital. Your playback options will be much greater. If you use ND and decide to use those extra features, you are going to be sorry. Again, there is no need to use Nero Digital.

"The codecs are compliant with the ISO/IEC standard, with the exception of subtitles and chapter information. The video streams generated by Nero Digital can be played back on some stand-alone hardware players and software media players such as its own Nero Showtime, though many reportedly have problems dealing with the Nero-encoded chapters points and subtitles.[citation needed]

Recode cannot rip encrypted DVD movie discs, but is able to import decrypted DVD images for encoding. Nero Digital also does not ship its codecs as stand-alone DirectShow or VfW modules, preventing them from being used for general-purpose video editing. The product is not bundled with a video editor."

The second to last sentence means you will have to use the Nero suite to play back your Nero Digital files, and not say Windows Media Player, TheaterTek, Zoom Player, Elecard Player, etc.... To do that you would have to have another decoder because Nero wants you to use their software. Try to play back a Nero file with the extra features and it is game over.
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nero_Digital

Every time you transcode-you lose something forever.
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post #13 of 25
9/7/07 at 1:52pm
http://www.nero.com/nerodigital/eng/..._Recorder.html
22 Hardware players support Nero Digital

BTW-Nero 8 is to be released Oct 1, 2007 worldwide.
(I still use 6 since it does everything I need and 7 was/is soo bug ridden I'm afraid to install 7. From 6 to 7 Nero tried to be an all encompassing toolbox, instead of focusing on what they are renowned for-disc burning)
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post #14 of 25
9/7/07 at 2:07pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by qz3fwd View Post

http://www.nero.com/nerodigital/eng/..._Recorder.html
22 Hardware players support Nero Digital

BTW-Nero 8 is to be released Oct 1, 2007 worldwide.
(I still use 6 since it does everything I need and 7 was/is soo bug ridden I'm afraid to install 7. From 6 to 7 Nero tried to be an all encompassing toolbox, instead of focusing on what they are renowned for-disc burning)

I would characterize Nero as BLOATWARE with Nero Burning ROM/Express being the only real thing of value....the rest is bloatware.

And a good many of the hardware devices that will play Nero Digital are not available in the USA.
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post #15 of 25
9/7/07 at 2:24pm
I did'nt want to call it bloatware-but that was my point. Come on-a 173 mb download for Nero.

Good points.
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post #16 of 25
9/7/07 at 2:26pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by qz3fwd View Post

...I still use 6 since it does everything I need and 7 was/is soo bug ridden I'm afraid to install 7...

Nero now uses the Ateme encoder - things are different now from that old version 6. But your point has some merit. You have to get with Nero's program and use it. Editing is limited but you can trim out intros, commercials and credits. Support is downright poor but the video quality is topnotch. To me the main obstacle is the use of the AAC (Advanced Audio Codec) which is not found on most audio receivers (generally AC3 - Dolby Digital, DTS). This means that your playback software has to take care of the decoding instead of the receiver and you have to use analog connections to the receiver. No big deal but just something else that is a little different.
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post #17 of 25
9/7/07 at 2:34pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by qz3fwd View Post

Stay away from Nero, and stick with AVC proper. Otherwise it will bite you in the ass later on when you have a 2000+ movie catalog encoded in Nero Blah-blah codec and your new super cool toy to replace all toys ends up supporting the official H.264 codec and the Nero codec is just a wee bit different, but just enough to make them incompatible in one way or another. It is the kiss of death. What are you gonna do when Nero Digital dies and no hardware manufacturers support it(there is no good reason compelling them to support nero today or in the future)-reencode all those 2000+ movies you no longer have the source to, into a proper ISO codec and waste 2 months of your time working 24/7?

How many hardware manufacturers are supporting Nero Digital? You could probably count the number on one hand. Maybe I am wrong-but I doubt it. Nero has not and will not become a defacto standard.

Look at Windows Media-It would never have been accepted into either HD optical format if it had remained a closed proprietary codec and not undergone standardization. How many closed codecs have been widely accepted?

Lets see:
North American Broadcast: ATSC Mpeg2
Cable Mpeg2
Europe: DVB (Mpeg2 & AVC)
Japan: Mpeg2
Most Other Countries: DVB
0 proprietary codecs, for good reason.

(EDIT: One could say that Apple Quicktime has become a standard for things like trailers)
How many (Non HTPC) players support quicktime playback? Not many and those that do typically only support qt files with embedded H.264 video in the container)

Let me repeat... Nero is not a Proprietary codec. It is based on an open codec that is specified by ISO/IEC just like MPEG2 and DVB (Which is based on MPEG2 transport streams)

Let me ask, what is a proper ISO codec?

Seriously, worst case scenario, Nero burns down Rome and you can just stream copy the elementary streams into another container. Recode is easy to use, that's why Nero Digital works for me.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Shark64 View Post

There is some misinformation and perhaps bad advice contained in this thread. As a starter anyone interested should read at least this from wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H264 on the subject. Nero Digital is fully mpeg-4 compliant but that includes a lot of choices and even "private data" that is permitted by the standard. In any event I would suggest you try Nero Digital for yourself, it has a lot of positive aspects. If you want to change to "h.264" you can do a simple transcode from whatever profile you selected. Note that Nero is due for a major upgrade in October of 2007 so you might get the free trial package now but maybe wait to purchase.

Shark

Thanks for that comment. I think people need to keep in mind that although wikipedia is not the best source of information, it is often reliable enough to brush up on the subject.
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post #18 of 25
9/7/07 at 2:56pm
Thread Starter 
Guys, thanks for the info. Really technical, but also interesting! honestly, i am a bit lost now.....

Anyways, I saw a few movies on my friend's PC, and he told me it's encoded in nero digital AVC format. I truly think the video looks better than the Xvid/DivX movies I have seen, but just wondering why there is no DVD player or media player that can play the formats.

Do you guys happen to know if any of the DVD or media player makers in the US will start supporting this format?
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post #19 of 25
9/7/07 at 3:04pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by starctk View Post

Guys, thanks for the info. Really technical, but also interesting! honestly, i am a bit lost now.....

Anyways, I saw a few movies on my friend's PC, and he told me it's encoded in nero digital AVC format. I truly think the video looks better than the Xvid/DivX movies I have seen, but just wondering why there is no DVD player or media player that can play the formats.

Do you guys happen to know if any of the DVD or media player makers in the US will start supporting this format?

Not yet... unfortunately.

At home I use XBMC on an original modded xbox, but the CPU on the original xbox isn't strong enough to decode 264. I have heard of people using recode to create nero digital files for the 360 though... you can probably google that or go to an xbox360 site to find that info.
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post #20 of 25
9/7/07 at 3:14pm
Because nobody wants to pay Nero to support their proprietary extension's to an otherwise standardized codec(which they already pay patent/licensing fees for). What real value would it provide to dvd player manufacturers when prices are super cheap and their margins are small.

If the nero file stays strictly within the ISO spec's and no secret sauce is used, then you shoud be good to go. On the other hand software companies want you to use their "extensions" and will not make it obvious to you that you have added something incompatible when you hit the output button.

The fact that nobody supports Nero Digital must tell you something since they have been trying to peddle it for a LONG time. What do you think?

Go ahead and use it, but beware.

Also-why pay for Nero when there are free alternatives?

Quote:


Seriously, worst case scenario, Nero burns down Rome and you can just stream copy the elementary streams into another container. Recode is easy to use, that's why Nero Digital works for me.

Why bother letting Rome burn down in the first place? Damn-Nero screwed up my library, now I gotta fix 2000 files.

Go ahead and try it and if you like it good luck.
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post #21 of 25
9/7/07 at 3:35pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by starctk View Post

Do you guys happen to know if any of the DVD or media player makers in the US will start supporting this format?

You can get a Ziova CS505 from one of the AVS sponsors, Digital Connection, that will play native Nero Digital. This model is the successor to the Zensonic Z500 which was introduced over a year ago. It is also a full featured network player.
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post #22 of 25
9/7/07 at 3:39pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by starctk View Post

Guys, thanks for the info. Really technical, but also interesting! honestly, i am a bit lost now.....

Anyways, I saw a few movies on my friend's PC, and he told me it's encoded in nero digital AVC format. I truly think the video looks better than the Xvid/DivX movies I have seen, but just wondering why there is no DVD player or media player that can play the formats.

Do you guys happen to know if any of the DVD or media player makers in the US will start supporting this format?

A word of caution when judging video picture quality, the devil is in the details!
The ONLY way to judge PQ is to the play the exact same video file, encoded at the same bitrate and general parameters and view them side by side on exactly the same monitors ensuring both monitors are setup exactly the same.

For example the source video for the Nero Digital may have been much better than the source video for the DivX/Xvid video. The type of video also can play a huge role (action verses none action for example), the size of the screen you view the video on (the smaller the screen the better the video will look), a small difference in bitrate can also make a huge difference.

IMO and experience h264 and Nero Digital are slightly better PQ wise than comparably encoded DivX but the difference is not significant and for most video most people would not see a difference.

I would by no means get hung up on Nero Digital based on the little bit you have seen and tried. In fact IMHO it is a waste of time and effort to convert your original video format to anything else, except in the case of wanting to play the video on a hand help device. HDD space is cheap and easy to expand. No matter what lossy codec you choose you will lose video PQ converting from what you started with to something else. h264 nor Nero Digital nor any other codec will make the original video look any better only varying degrees of worse.
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post #23 of 25
9/14/07 at 9:46am
Thanks for the info, djkool19 and digitalkid2. So, what to do?

Man, I'm really at my wits' end with this recode thing.

Four years ago I decided that Microsoft's WMV wasn't about to disappear and it was safe to capture DVDs to WMV. This was laboriously done via a DataVideo A-D converter and firewire to PC into Windows Movie Maker. It also allowed me to capture over 100 VHS tapes in my collection ...

Since then things have moved on - faster CPUs, better displays, larger cheaper disks.

A few months ago I abandoned the idea of a MPC and went with an Mvix MX-760 HD. I also started ripping my DVD collection (AnyDVD + Fair Use Wizard + Dvix 6 Pro). It took forever, and results were disappointing ... washed out colours, mainly.

I then asked why recode? Why not simply create ISO images and invest in disk. I got a pair of Hitachi 1TBs. Disk space problem solved.

But now I'm having 2nd thoughts.

Does it make sense to have 6-8GB ISOs on the disk when all I need is the movie? I then revisited the various rippers and recoders and fired up Nero Digital (I have Nero 7). Neat program. Fast. Great quality. I simply rename the MP4 output file with AVI extension and it plays fine on the Mvix and PC (WMP, GOMPlayer, etc).

What would you recommend as the best way to rip DVDs, cropping correctly and maintaining correct aspect ratio - and retaining decent quality for years to come?

Thanks, guys.
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post #24 of 25
9/14/07 at 10:44am
Quote:
Originally Posted by arthurw View Post

Thanks for the info, djkool19 and digitalkid2. So, what to do?

Man, I'm really at my wits' end with this recode thing.

Four years ago I decided that Microsoft's WMV wasn't about to disappear and it was safe to capture DVDs to WMV. This was laboriously done via a DataVideo A-D converter and firewire to PC into Windows Movie Maker. It also allowed me to capture over 100 VHS tapes in my collection ...

Since then things have moved on - faster CPUs, better displays, larger cheaper disks.

A few months ago I abandoned the idea of a MPC and went with an Mvix MX-760 HD. I also started ripping my DVD collection (AnyDVD + Fair Use Wizard + Dvix 6 Pro). It took forever, and results were disappointing ... washed out colours, mainly.

I then asked why recode? Why not simply create ISO images and invest in disk. I got a pair of Hitachi 1TBs. Disk space problem solved.

But now I'm having 2nd thoughts.

Does it make sense to have 6-8GB ISOs on the disk when all I need is the movie? I then revisited the various rippers and recoders and fired up Nero Digital (I have Nero 7). Neat program. Fast. Great quality. I simply rename the MP4 output file with AVI extension and it plays fine on the Mvix and PC (WMP, GOMPlayer, etc).

What would you recommend as the best way to rip DVDs, cropping correctly and maintaining correct aspect ratio - and retaining decent quality for years to come?

Thanks, guys.

FWIW I ripped my 125 or so commercial DVDs to HDD, main movie only, using DVD Fab Decrypter HD (Freeware) as Vob_Ts Folder and then I use VideoReDo Plus to create a single mpeg file (takes about 15 minutes, no re-encoding). The entire process takes about 35minutes. What you see on the TV is what you would see on the DVD including upscaling because my TV upscales, so no worries regarding cropping or aspect ratio ect. I use (2) Linkplayer2 wired network media players (two HDTVs) to view our video files.

The reason I went with the mpeg file and not ISO is that every so often I would get an ISO that my Linkplayer+WIZD Server software did not like. This was not much of a sacrifice because I rarely ever used any of the navigation available in an ISO file.

Over the years I have gone through numerous re-visits of re-encoding my video files and in the end, especially with commercial DVDs and my family videos it just plain made more sense to leave them alone, leave them as mpeg2. When ever I get in the mood to do some video re-encoding I usually get in trouble with my wife. She is by no means a videofile but for some reason she can spot a re=encoded file, especially if it is DivX.

I also record SD cable TV as well as OTA HD in mpeg2. I cut commercials, we watch and then delete. WIZD server software has the option to allow file deletion using the Linkplayer2 remote which completely eliminates the need to keep track of what has been watched.

Like so many others I have to keep fighting the urge to re-encode.
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post #25 of 25
9/21/07 at 1:50pm
I caved in and spent the last three days re-encoding perfectly good mpeg2 video with the latest version of Nero Digital. At first, like so many other times over the last 4 years I thought the PQ loss was acceptable in comparison to the file size reduction of 50-66%. My wife and I watched a few of the re-encoded files and once again I am in the dog house for messing with my wifes video files. IMO and my wifes the picture quality for a given file size (bitrate) regardless if the highest quality slowest encoding settings is no better than DivX, which is really not that good.

So I am back to just simply cutting commercials (reduces file size by 33%) and using VBR. What I will do now is another set of comparisons to determine if I can reduce bitrate further in the original recording.

As an aside I actually get considerably better results reducing mpeg2 file size by 50-60% by simply re-encoding to mepg2 using a quality mpeg encoder and VBR set to an average of 3Mb/s with a max of 5Mb/s and a min of 1.5Mb/s. This result is the reason that I am re-visiting my recording settings.

BTW files encoded with the latest version of Nero Digital will play straight away using a Linkplayer2 and WIZD software.

For context we watch these files on a 50" Sony HDTV monitor.
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