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Rives Sells 1,000 Watt Amplifier

post #1 of 33
Thread Starter 
SUBPARC

post #2 of 33
I would think twice about naming something that sounds like subpar.
post #3 of 33
At $4500 MSRP it looks like a rip off.
post #4 of 33
Rives knows what they are doing.
post #5 of 33
Its much more than simply an amplifier. From their website:

http://www.rivesaudio.com/PARC/PARCframe-sub.html

"The sub-PARC *

A crossover, parametric eq, and digital amplifier in one.

A more intelligent way to deal with subwoofers.

What if you had a pair of monitors and wanted to add a sub-woofer in a small room? One with known problematic room modes. The sub-woofer could create as many problems as it solved. Now, with the sub-PARC, you can add a passive sub-woofer with no worries. The sub-PARC uses the same parametric filter from the award wining PARC. But there's more--much more.

What if you had your music system and home theater combined? What if you wanted one crossover point for your subwoofer for music but wanted to use the LFE channel for movies? The sub-PARC has you covered. With a 12 volt trigger it will automatically switch into home theater mode, bypassing the crossover and using the LFE channel. When the trigger is off it uses the crossover and the saved parameters for music. Smart.

Finally the 1000 watt amplifier is capable of driving just about anything. And should you find that you need more power, or just something different there is a low pass output, so you can bipass the amplifier section altogether.

There really is no comparison to the sub-PARC. With the flexible crossover, digitally controlled (but analog based) parametric eq, and a digital amplifier every music lover and home theater enthusiast could use one, or maybe 2."
post #6 of 33
Steve, you beat me to it. I figured there was a little more going on there than just a little gain. The buttons and red display were a dead giveaway.
post #7 of 33
Rives knows there stuff when it comes to acoustics.

I've heard their rooms at CES and always sound very, very nice.

Back when DTS used to demo with CRT projectors, and only some portable curtains and acoustic treatments (not the full blown CEDIA stuff) they always sounded nice.

Rooms done by CEDIA folks like Acoustic Innovations always have sounded one dimensional and dead to me.

I have no doubt this Rives product works as advertised!!! Anyone wanna buy me one??
post #8 of 33
Quote:


Rives knows what they are doing.

At taking money from fools. And they still charge $4500 for it!

You can buy a SMS-1 from velodyne that will have far better room correction over this unit and if you wanted to go all out you can buy the Audyssey MultEQ XT for entire room correction! Even better if you want a sub woofer you can buy a velodyne DD-18 which has everything built in for cheaper and you still get the sub! This product is a joke.

Quote:


Finally the 1000 watt amplifier is capable of driving just about anything. And should you find that you need more power, or just something different there is a low pass output, so you can bipass the amplifier section altogether.

Amplifier rating: 1000 Watts (low frequency only), which are a dime a dozen now days.
post #9 of 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluray_1080p View Post

At taking money from fools. And they still charge $4500 for it!

You can buy a SMS-1 from velodyne that will have far better room correction over this unit and if you wanted to go all out you can buy the Audyssey MultEQ XT for entire room correction! Even better if you want a sub woofer you can buy a velodyne DD-18 which has everything built in for cheaper and you still get the sub! This product is a joke.



Amplifier rating: 1000 Watts (low frequency only), which are a dime a dozen now days.

I just luv how folks jump to conclusions when they haven't done any research.

Look over the info on the Rives Audio Parc products - room correction. They use analog high quality parts, avoiding extra DA conversions, and achieving transparency not done with other products.

Yes I assume similar quality for the Sub-Parc.

Yes, the SMS-1 is good enough for you - and also for me as I don't wanna spend that money - but that doesn't mean it ain't a worthwhile product for the right audiophile/home theater nut!!!@@@
post #10 of 33
bluray, do you know ANYTHING about rives? Have you had any experience to talkto them or hear one of their rooms? How do you know that the velodyne is better?

Think about it nitwit... why would an acoustical engineering comapny make a physical product?

The last thing a consulting company wants is to be responsible for is hardware. THey made it because they could not find anything to compare.. and as such detemined it was needed.

I do not know this as a fact, but it is the only thing that makes sense.


And i have a question, are there any threads here that you have contributed in any positive fashion? You seem to just drop in and talk shite.
post #11 of 33
He's been all over the audio forum with that confrontational attitude, pissing everyone off.

Get a grip dude. Different forums have different feels. This one is pretty cool and chilled.

Take it easy and you'll be more than welcome.
post #12 of 33
I'm not one way or the other on this product, but that's not the greatest name what with the obvious negative connotations.
post #13 of 33
My Sub 30s have built in EQ (three channels), but I don't really need it much with the room placement of the subs and Meridian 861 bass management.

I do however need something that covers more than just 80 Hz, and unfortunately, while the PARC can subtract gain, it can't add any... So I'm likely going to get this:

http://www.massenburg.com/cgi-bin/ml/mod8200.html

Right now I am using this:

http://www.behringer.com/DEQ2496/index.cfm?lang=eng

And this:

http://www.behringer.com/ECM8000/index.cfm?lang=eng

A temporary cheap digital room EQ with a mic for RTA on my two channel setup to see if I want to go the full length and buy the GML 8200. I'm supposed to talk to Rives about finding natural solutions later this month, but since you can never get rid of every aberration, it will still be useful to have something in the analog domain with high quality parts and construction.

I do notice a trade-off between greater bass coherency vs. dimensionality of timbre across notes in the lower octave when choosing the flatter vs. normal room response.
post #14 of 33
BTW, if anyone is in the market for a cheap multi-type EQ machine, that Behringer is very cool considering the price tag. For around $350 to $400 you can get the device and an RTA mic so you can have the machine set itself up for your environment... A nice first step for people who wants to see if going with something more expensive will be worth their while without wasting a lot of money and finding out they aren't happy with the results.
post #15 of 33
I still can't figure out why Rives would include built-in mono 1000W sub amp. Who still uses passive subs?!
post #16 of 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by dicey View Post

I still can't figure out why Rives would include built-in mono 1000W sub amp. Who still uses passive subs?!

I do. And each is pumped up with 2500W.
post #17 of 33
Dicey, Rives makes an EQ product without an amp as well. So apparently they felt the integrated piece would have a market, too...
post #18 of 33
Looks like Mr. Moderator is on the job today. Thanks Mark!
post #19 of 33
Quote:


but that doesn't mean it ain't a worthwhile product for the right audiophile/home theater nut!!!@@@

I still do not see what is so "great" about this product, it has nothing that stands out. The amp is basic and underpowered for a subwoofer amp, the room correction is basic and it has a built in crossover, so what and for $4500.
post #20 of 33
maybe because that is because you know nothing about rives or what they do? And you think that it gets no better than your velodyne.

Not that there is anything wrong with it, there is just a much broader market out there.
post #21 of 33
Well I looked at the specs and could find nothing on what type of crossover and they mention nothing on the so called room correction that would make it better then a SMS-1 which most people run in a non pro setup.
post #22 of 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluray_1080p View Post

Well I looked at the specs and could find nothing on what type of crossover and they mention nothing on the so called room correction that would make it better then a SMS-1 which most people run in a non pro setup.

One difference that would be important to me is that the PEQing is handled in the analog domain exclusively on the SubPARC, while the Velodyne converts/reconverts the analog signal to the digital domain to do the PEQing. That GML 8200 (designed by the guy who invented PEQs BTW) I'm interested in is also a purely analog PEQ device, though it has 15dB of boost as well as cut on each band...

I'm not sure about other differences, nor am I interested in exploring it much more than that. As far as I'm concerned, since most Subs already have a built in amp, it would make more sense to get something like that Behringer 2496 I bought recently if digitization doesn't bother you and you don't want a pure analog PEQ.
post #23 of 33
Quote:


One difference that would be important to me is that the PEQing is handled in the analog domain exclusively on the SubPARC, while the Velodyne converts/reconverts the analog signal to the digital domain to do the PEQing. That GML 8200 (designed by the guy who invented PEQs BTW) I'm interested in is also a purely analog PEQ device, though it has 15dB of boost as well as cut on each band...

So now the high end guys are going to play the old story of digital VS analog? This is getting a bit old and when you say it like that the "sub"PARC sounds old and out dated.

Quote:


As far as I'm concerned, since most Subs already have a built in amp, it would make more sense to get something like that Behringer 2496 I bought recently if digitization doesn't bother you and you don't want a pure analog PEQ.

I agree the 1000watt amp is a waste and there is no reason to buy anything other then the Behringer or velodyne. I still can't under stand how someone can buy this for $4500 when you can get the audyssey full room correction for cheaper.
post #24 of 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluray_1080p View Post

So now the high end guys are going to play the old story of digital VS analog? This is getting a bit old and when you say it like that the "sub"PARC sounds old and out dated.

Listen kiddo... Don't put words in my mouth. Your attitude is getting a bit old. Especially when you lump everyone into the same category because they post in this area. I got news for you as well, you are posting in this area too, making you one of those high-end guys now as well...

Just because you don't put much value in certain things, doesn't mean others won't or that they should act exactly like you do in the way they approach things. I was sharing what is important to me, not telling you what should be important to you. On my two channel setup I want everything to stay in the analog domain from LP to speakers. Should this be your priority? No. You can do whatever you like with your system and I won't complain about it one bit. You are the one who brought up "digital VS. analog," not me. I have both digital setups and analog setups and enjoy both immensely.

If you don't like the Rives SubPARC and don't have a need for it, then don't buy it. That you came onto this thread merely to insult and antagonize people who don't adhere to your "audio criteria," certainly makes you look like a jackass. What's the matter, didn't your mommy give you enough attention when you were little?
post #25 of 33
bluray_1080p, your posts have been cleaned off of this thread once already, you would think you'd get the hint. But just in case it isn't clear, questions like "I can't understand how someone can buy this for $X when Y is cheaper" is a real good example of a tired cliche that few of us, even among us objectivists, find particularly constructive. Shape up, ship out---or be shipped out by moderators.

Now as to the "old" digital vs. analog debate: in the larger scheme of things, the idea of avoiding multiple A/D->D/A pairs in the signal path is quite reasonable on its face. I'm not so sure how much that worry is warranted when it comes to subwoofers, though. After all, we're talking about a device whose response tops out a couple of decades below the Nyquist sampling frequency. Thus the common scapegoats of A/D and D/A unpleasantness---the aliasing and reconstruction filters---will be far less severe than for full-range signals. So in my view a well-designed digital subwoofer equalization system ought to be able to match or exceed the performance of an all-analog system. In that sense I agree with you, but I hope I've presented my view in a bit more constructive of a fashion.
post #26 of 33
'Sorry I've been rather absent lately- the baby keeps momma and I quite busy (well that, and that little CEDIA thing...)

Anyway, I've been reading this thread (although admittedly didn't look at the link to Rives website) and I wonder; is the subparc a truley class D design or is it a hybrid like a class G? It's interesting to me that Richard would be so adamant about the analog-only nature of the parc; and then follow that up with a parc mated to a class D amp..

And to answer who uses passive subs anymore: well me, and every single one of my clients (CAT doesn't make a powered sub, but they do make a 600W x2 fully differential amp that will kick the snot out of a very heavy 22" aluminum woofer). So active vs passive designs is merely semantics anyway, Jeff has been pounding away with his BDEAPs and bitchin crown amps for a couple years now. Before that a little company called BagEnd made some pretty serious passive designs using 18" woofers, and then there was the Whise Profunder-a 21" design right?

Technically speaking, all subwoofers are inherently passive, it's just that most speaker companies include a plate amp with them (mounted inside the enclosure) because most people can't decide on what shoes to wear, much less which amps out there can properly handle the loads presented by the more serious woofer designs...and rightly so, that's the job for engineers (MG) not laypeople or even installers for that matter- how many do you know went to school for electrical engineering?

And in relation to Michael's last post: the A/D - D/A conversions that happen down low ARE much less obvious, but what IS obvious is when you start taxing the processor(s) inside a DSP. For instance: Symmetrix makes 2 8x8 DSPs; one of them uses 4 processing chips ( I think they're Sharc processors ), the other uses 1. Now let's say we have a very basic system that uses 1 woofer (wrong)- well, that single processing chip works just great, because all the computational power is going to only one channel- really light load.
______BUT__________ If we use 4 or 8 or say for argument's sake 32 woofers in one room, that one lonely processor really isn't going to be a tremendous help, because we'll only be able to effectively use one or two filters per woofer if we're lucky, before the thing just runs out of steam. Would that necessarily make the room sound bad? Probably not, but if we could replicate that situation of one processor per-woofer, well then we can make all the amplitude, frequency, time and phase adustments we want to get all of those 32 motors as perfectly in-sync as possible, therefore pressurizing the room more evenly throughout.

Rives operates at a level, and in a realm far beyond the world of Denon receivers and Audessey outboard boxes- just look at Mike Lavigne's room as an example. So too does Symmetrix- a company used in the pro world to make sub stacks work together at your local concert venue.

Neither analog nor digital hold the answer solely; the two must be used together properly in order to maximise each of their strengths, and to minimize their weaknesses.
I mean,I certainly wouldn't use digital correction on anything above say 140 hz- and I really don't think that an analog solution can take on the kinds of projects like concert venues because of the lack of filters available, and the ability ( or lack thereof ) to use multiple filters on multiple woofers without using several of those devices.

And here's my final .02 on this: a purely class D amp in most cases will work quite fine considering that most subs have a relatively flat impedance curve, but if you throw in a woofer that drops close to about 1 ohm at times, well- you're probably going to have an issue: since most class D amps will shut down as the load approaches what the amp sees as a dead-short ( this was the reason for my original question, because lass G acts like a voltage-source switch-mode amp most of the time, but when impedance drops- it acts more like a good-'ol class AB ).

For those of you who are obviously smarter than I am, feel free to politely correct any misinformation I may have just spread.

Dan
post #27 of 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by QueueCumber View Post

Right now I am using this:

http://www.behringer.com/DEQ2496/index.cfm?lang=eng

And this:

http://www.behringer.com/ECM8000/index.cfm?lang=eng

A temporary cheap digital room EQ with a mic for RTA on my two channel setup to see if I want to go the full length and buy the GML 8200. I'm supposed to talk to Rives about finding natural solutions later this month, but since you can never get rid of every aberration, it will still be useful to have something in the analog domain with high quality parts and construction.

I do notice a trade-off between greater bass coherency vs. dimensionality of timbre across notes in the lower octave when choosing the flatter vs. normal room response.

I'm curious, are you using the DEQ2496 in analog or digital mode? I'm thinking about trying one between my transport and DAC for room correction (2 channel only)
post #28 of 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by dknightd View Post

I'm curious, are you using the DEQ2496 in analog or digital mode? I'm thinking about trying one between my transport and DAC for room correction (2 channel only)

It is a Digital EQ. So it is always in digital mode, unless you are bypassing it, in which case it is just being passed through without anything being done to the signal.
post #29 of 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by QueueCumber View Post

It is a Digital EQ. So it is always in digital mode, unless you are bypassing it, in which case it is just being passed through without anything being done to the signal.

I guess I should have asked i you were using the digital inputs and outputs , or the analogs. Apparently the digital ones. Where you happy with its performance? Could you tell it was there when in bypass mode?
Did it have much effect on the frequencies tht you were not using it to control? Just wondering if it is worth trying as a poor mans method of fixing the last few bumps in the bass region in my room. I guess this is the wrong forum to be looking for poor mans solutions . . .
post #30 of 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by dknightd View Post

I guess I should have asked i you were using the digital inputs and outputs , or the analogs. Apparently the digital ones. Where you happy with its performance? Could you tell it was there when in bypass mode?
Did it have much effect on the frequencies tht you were not using it to control? Just wondering if it is worth trying as a poor mans method of fixing the last few bumps in the bass region in my room. I guess this is the wrong forum to be looking for poor mans solutions . . .

I think it is great as a cheap solution. Like mentioned already in this thread (or was it another thread - I've been posting too much lately...) there are trade-offs. I haven't done any careful A/B-ing but I don't hear anything bad when in bypass mode. I definitely prefer the output of my Meridian 861 when it digitizes the signal to 96/24 over the Behringer, as well as the more natural sounding room correction mixed with bass management with separate subs....

I would need to do a more careful comparison, but there seemed to be some of that bright, digital sound with the Behringer. You should be able to find a place that sells it with a 30 day return of some sort, I think.
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