Power conditioner claims... BUSTED! - Page 4

He is then also responsible for not previously addressing the ground loops or commenting upon them in listening aspects of reviews.

Yes! However, Stacey Spears was actually involved in the DVD benchmark event where they took those noise floor measurements, so he is guilty by association. And now that I'm looking at the things he did write about the Power Plant a bit more closely, I do think it's still true that he's a bit out of his element on the power conditioning side. The DVD Benchmark itself is a very fine piece of objective work, to which he contributed primarily to the video measurements, and to a lesser extent on the audio side.

[Edited for clarification, we're talking about two different reviewers here now]

Well someone's responsible!

The most important point is being missed in these exchanges... How do these measurements, especially the lowered noise floor affect the perception.. In other words does a lowered noise floor makes a difference in sound and picture? I surmise it does.. your takes?
Notice that what is clearly apparent in the case would have been the same with many good Double conversion UPS.. The PS Audio has however a HT-friendly form factor...

Tough to say Frantz. I've seen measurements on things like CDP's and DVD's where filtering the incoming power or even using balanced power has resulted in a diminuation of measured distortion. For pictures, sometimes there can indeed be an improvement in quality especially if a problem has been particularly vexing. Audioholics made mention of that in their review of a particular Monster unit. If reviewers were especially interested, they could rig up a make before break switch and have someone operate it in a 'blind' fashion. If the reviewer could pick up when the switch was switched, well, then we'd have something.

If you look at those noise floor graphs, the noise that was removed was already well below -120dB, except the 60Hz spike which was reduced from about -112dB to -118dB, and the 180Hz spike which was originally at about -116dB and effectively eliminated. I don't know if those dB numbers are relative to reference or not, but I have to suspect that's telling us that the noise was relatively low to begin with.

Who knows if it would be truly perceptable or not at those levels. I was simply pleased to see that someone actually bothered to measure differences instead of just giving us their subjective opinion.

Chu

At the end should I read your post as an admission, that Maybe_it-could-be-that-they-may-make-a-difference-after-all?

My quest for cleaning up the AC started years ago, My late friend Jean Craan with whom I had some glorious listening sessions that lasted up to 10 hours was adamant he could hear the "nasties" of the power line way before Power conditioners became fashionable, we are talking about early 1980's. He was a Board Member, the Administrator and President of one if not THE largest Private Hospital in Haiti. He maintained that the Double conversion UPS they were using should be better than the audiophile "things' and used them in his systems, with good results.. I followed suit years after and have not regretted it...

My idiot remark was not very clear. I should have pointed it more at the so called engineers at these companies who sell them. And yes I can be a *******, but in the cases of these companies who sell these false products someone has to speak up and be mean to them.Audio is not my hobby it is what I do to make a living.

Stacey Spears handled the PP300 review. John Johnson did the PP1200 review. Please keep the reviewers straight.

Michael:

Of course after I posted my comment; I see that you did clarify I know them both so I wanted to be clear on who was responsible for which work.

Cheers,

Or maybe you shouldn't have said it at all.
I assume that when you say "them" you mean the companies themselves. Well, when you actually do that, let me know. What you are accomplishing instead is being mean to people here. I firmly believe it is possible for objectivists like you and me to state facts without being mean. After the recent Moderator thread I'm trying to redouble my effort to be better in that respect, and to press others to do the same. Some subjectivists will still take it personally even if you're playing it cool and just stating facts. But once you've taken care of yourself the rest is their problem.

Well Frantz, a number of years ago, the late Julian Dunn said that he was of the opinion that there was a great over-emphasis on jitter as a parameter and that people would do better to focus on better isolation of the power supply from the rest of the CDP. Dunn didn't name names but one might consider when buying something like a CDP whether the outfit has a comprehensive test facilty. Under normal conditions, and I don't think your particular situation in any ways is normal, I just don't worry about it. If I do, my Scientology E-Meter will act up, which will send a signal to National Headquarters, which will summon John Travolta, who'll get into his jet airplane, pick up Tom Cruise, and the both of them will take me somewhere. I just can't risk that.

Sorry Michael I am just not going to be nice to these companies who lie and make no bones about taking peoples cash.They have every right to make as much money as they want, but not by falsehoods. If they told the truth and still want to charge alot of money and still want people to buy from them then so be it. And the same goes for these so called reviews that magazines do, be it hi end audio or cars or whatever they are reviewing.

I have full sympathy with your frustration with the pseudoscience peddled by these companies. It wasn't that long ago I dismantled the claims of one of these cable manufacturers on this very forum. It bugs the crap out of me.

So I'm not asking you to be nice to them. I'm asking you to be nice to the people on this forum. There is a difference; and if you don't see it, I am sure the moderators will help you. For instance, it means that statements like "yet people still have unshakeable faith in these idiots"---which are likely to be taken personally by many on this forum---are probably not prudent.

Excellent points Michael. This is indeed the crux of the difficulty I've had with speco...even though we basically agree on darn near everything.

Cheers, John

Certain things are not meant to be repaired... It's like repairing a deployed air bag, just replace it.
ESPECIALLY if the unit is under a lifetime warranty!!

Why are you REPAIRING a 15 year old, $250 surge unit that did it's job, and whose manufacturer would gladly replace with the newer unit that has more up to date protection??

I take it you are a service tech??


Because they are sacrificial... They "eat" the surge and save the other components. Any surge is simply looking for the easiest path to ground, and that is what MOVs do... The MOVs in VCRs and receivers are usually a lower grade. In this case HIGHER grade MOVs provide the easiest path, and are the first to shunt the surge to ground.

So the Panamax goes first by design.

Without a surge, usually one component takes a hit in a minor surge. I have seen stacks of gear come in for service after a storm, and everything benches OK except for one piece that is royally toasted. It was the sacrificial component, and it took the hit. If there is a serious hit, then more components will be burned as well....

Everyone here is quick to point out that superior technology exists within units from Richard Gray, PS Audio or SurgeX....
None of them EXISTED when this Panamax was released.

The Max-1000+ was discontinued 7-8 years ago....

Monster was still a "wire-only" line, and Furman made very basic power strips for pro sound and touring racks.

As for Furman's or PS Audio's "balanced" or "regenerated" tehnology... Equi=Tech hadn't invented it yet.

Furman had rack mount surge protection units that were more rudimentary than this Panamax.

On any unit under $300 MSRP, there were literally wire nuts from the power cord, to a thermal trip circuit breaker, and to the outlets. If there were pull out lights, then a little dimmer and those were just connected as well.

Back then Tice was the only other company specializing in power conditioning for "high end" systems.

Panamax has improved, they now have a protect or disconnect system that works. It's still sacrificial, but it will not pass a surge after it's taken what it can handle, the outlets will be disconnected.

Power conditioning and surge protection has come a long way in 15 years, Curt. Would you judge LCD projectors on the old Sharp LC-37U??

What is the best power conditioner?? Many have a real title shot...

Richard Gray
Equi=Tech
SurgeX / Empower
PS Audio

I think that the units from Torus are the real deal.
www.toruspower.com

Another point... This is the "ultra high end HT gear" thread...
Why a "debunking" thread on a 10-15 year old, $249 unit anyway??

I doubt too many here have their Theta, Halcro, Meridian, Krell, Levinson, McIntosh, etc plugged into any manufacturers $249 power unit.

Good point Cinema. I would not consider that to be high end at all.

Art

My opinion suddenly doesn't hold merit in your eyes because I objected to the very broad generalization of an entire product category based on your opening a single example of an obviously damaged, 10 year old, $249 product??

That seems reasonable.

Curt, I DO have respect for your opinion. As an example, you are one of the few people who I trust as an accurate source of information on CRT....
I just happen to disagree with you on this topic... and fairly strongly disagree at that.

No fire, and no flames from me... Since I am long-winded, I throw CAPS in so the point I may have been hinting toward won't be lost in the ether, not because I am electronically shouting at you or anything.


This is slightly mis-quoted... and the way my post reads may have something to do with that... Sorry.

I just mentioned Furman, and then went on to discuss the Furman's lower priced rack units in the next paragraph, but in re-reading I can see how it may have been interpreted as a comment on the original product (the Max-1000+).

I was saying that the FURMAN units below $300, which were the only real competitive products to that Panamax when it was introduced, were all wire nuts and simple breakers back then...

Again, I apologize for this. Re-reading, I can see how you thought that I was again referring to the Max-1000+.


I am not as familiar with RGPC as I am with Panamax, SurgeX and Equi-Tech.... I am reading more material on the RGPC as I may be in a position where I will have to work with them more closely.


IMO, you can't count on a clean power signal, and a designer HAS to provide adequate protection... There are too many factors playing against you including storms, auto accidents knocking over utility poles or damaging utility pedestals, cars and/or wind gusts knocking trees into wires and transformers...

Then there are the grid issues during the peak usage in the Summertime months....

I will never put in a system w/out decent surge protection, period.

I HAVE taken out plenty of Panamax units that have taken the hit and left the equipment in perfect shape.
I replaced a grossly mis-shapen Max-8 that took a violent hit at a client's home... It left it's outlets "open", saving the gear, and then went to the little test bench in the sky....

Several appliances in that home were dead, as was the pool pump, and several phones.... but the A/V gear was still in perfect condition.

As for "conditioning", I believe that the best steps to eliminate power induced issues involve installation if dedicated circuits, following solid grounding practices, and to keep all the connected equipment (including flat panels or projectors) on a single circuit when possible.

To that end, I use inlet/outlet extensions fed by the rack mount surge/line conditioner unit through an inlet, or dedicated system outlets fed by a dedicated branch off of a installation model rack mount surge/line conditioner in a NEMA enclosure.

With some prudent design work, the need for conditioning is minimized.

No box is going to be a panacea if the electrical system is jacked.

I have had a Panamax 1000+ for about 15yrs and I think that it has failed. The display shows over voltage. At the time of the event there wasnt any dimming or changes in my lighting in the house, this is why i thinked it failed.

Is worth replacing or just plugging my equipment into wall direct. If I get another conditioner the one that makes sense to me is one with voltage regulation. Help!

Sorry, not a good question for this forum! By the time you read all the pros and cons you'll be more confused than ever. Do your own due diligence and arrive at your own conclusions.

You might as well ask what direction is up

At the time you bought that unit, IIRC Panamax offered a lifetime warranty on it. Check with them.

Panamax has always been very good about honoring warranties. Most of the failures in their units seem to be related to peripheral circuits and not surge suppression. The basic surge suppressors seem to be very robust.

So far so good. $35 shipping and handling and they'll give me a M4300PM as a replacement. Then 50 to 60% off an upgrade. However the Canadian office has to call me regarding the upgrade options. Thankfully the garbage truck didnt come and take away the max 1000.

I had the same problem with an errant overvoltage light coming on right after power up on two Panamax 1000+ and was able to fix the problem by changing the four electrolytic capacitor which I bought at Fry's Elecronics for around $7. I know have three Panamax 1000+s and they are all now all working fine. So for owners that have a Panamax 1000+ with the false overvoltage problem after powering up; try changing the two two 4.7uf 50V, one 220uf 35V and one 22uf 25V electrolytic capacitors before throwing it on the scrap heap. Make sure the caps you buy have both leads on the side and one lead is marked negative. If you have soldering skills you can change these yourself being careful to make sure the polarity is correct as the negative side will be marked "--" or have a black bar on the negative side. Otherwise you could take it to a repair shop and have them change the caps for you.

At $250 the best doesn't have to always be expensive.

What is the make and model in the picture?