>>Sony KDS-XXA3000<< Settings/Tweaks thread - OWNERS ONLY! - Page 4

I've noticed this with my CineMotion settings and Motion Enhancer also. ME doesn't seem to have any affect on the picture when CM is turned off, but when I turn CM on the motion becomes ultra smooth.

What I don't understand is why it seems to affect my blu-ray movies and regular DVDs the same way. The manual states that CM performs reverse 3:2 pulldown, so wouldn't this setting not be needed for true 24p blu-ray playback? I am outputting the blu-ray at 24p with a ps3 and I still don't get the fluid motion unless I turn CM on. Do I have something set up incorrectly or am I just misunderstanding how the technology works? The CM seems to add in artifacts on the edges of fast moving images also, but that could be due to a combination of CM and one of my other settings, I haven't determined if CM alone is the cause of that yet.

Does anyone have an idea of what might be happening here? Has anyone been able to achieve that ultra fluid motion on a 24p feed without CineMotion turned on?

Originally Posted by hwjohn

Let me preface this with the fact that it may be entirely wrong and is based on my understanding of CineMotion.

As far as I know, CineMotion only deals with material that needs a pulldown. When the A3000 is fed a 24p signal, no 3:2 pulldown is necessary and CineMotion shouldn't do anything at all, even if it is on. 3:2 pulldown is only necessary when the disc contains 24p material which needs to be converted to 29.97 fps. This has always been the case until recently because all TV's used 29.97 fps (it is the NTSC standard).

The Motion Enhancer/Naturalizer is a different story. I don't think anyone really understands exactly what it does. Lets say that the A3000 simply displays each 24p frame 5 times each to achieve its 120 Hz refresh. Motion Enhancer/Naturalizer could do a lot of different things with those repeated frames, including interpolate with respect to time in an effort to make the motion more fluid. I don't know if this is feasible, but it is possible. Again, I don't think anyone really understands what these algorithms do yet.

Originally Posted by hwjohn

Let me preface this with the fact that it may be entirely wrong and is based on my understanding of CineMotion.

As far as I know, CineMotion only deals with material that needs a pulldown. When the A3000 is fed a 24p signal, no 3:2 pulldown is necessary and CineMotion shouldn't do anything at all, even if it is on. 3:2 pulldown is only necessary when the disc contains 24p material which needs to be converted to 29.97 fps. This has always been the case until recently because all TV's used 29.97 fps (it is the NTSC standard).

The Motion Enhancer/Naturalizer is a different story. I don't think anyone really understands exactly what it does. Lets say that the A3000 simply displays each 24p frame 5 times each to achieve its 120 Hz refresh. Motion Enhancer/Naturalizer could do a lot of different things with those repeated frames, including interpolate with respect to time in an effort to make the motion more fluid. I don't know if this is feasible, but it is possible. Again, I don't think anyone really understands what these algorithms do yet.

Originally Posted by joevfx

soemthign is fishy about that though, if that was the case sicne the TV can display at 24, why would it even need a 3:2 pulldown setting?

Originally Posted by donb1948

The display can accept a 24 hz progressive signal but it can not display at 24hz. These displays have a fixed display frequency of 120 hz. You need the 3:2 pull down because some of us are still using standard cd players that put out 60 hz signals. The 3:2 pulldown is still needed for properly displaying interlaced signals of film content that was recorded at 24 frames per second.

Originally Posted by joevfx

1. film content that was reconrded at 24 is put on the disc at 24, it is not interlaced.

2. if the tv can do 120hz cant it display 24z sicne its a multiply of 5, just liek teh mitsubishi tv does.

3. plus i read the tv is acheaving 24fps by doin black frame insertion , thats what the true 24p sticker means,

so again why does it need cinamotion to play back 24p

Originally Posted by joevfx

1. film content that was reconrded at 24 is put on the disc at 24, it is not interlaced.

Originally Posted by joevfx

2. if the tv can do 120hz cant it display 24z sicne its a multiply of 5, just liek teh mitsubishi tv does.

Originally Posted by joevfx

3. plus i read the tv is acheaving 24fps by doin black frame insertion , thats what the true 24p sticker means,

Originally Posted by joevfx

so again why does it need cinamotion to play back 24p

Originally Posted by donb1948

Yes, for you guys with the latest and greatest high definition format disks and players, but what about us folks still with standard dvd players. The film content on a standard dvd has been processed so that it can be shown on an interlaced display. In order to show the material on a digital, fixed pixel display, we need the 3:2 pull down to undo the processing that was used to enable display of the film content on the interlaced device.

Absolutely possible, if the material is on the dvd is actually 1080p@24hz, which is the case for Blu-Ray, but not the case for a standard dvd.

I have read speculation that the display is either doing a 5:5 pull down (which I read is optimum) or blalck frame insertiion to display the 1080p@24hz content at 1080p@120hz, but no one had a definitive answer.

Don't know. If hwjohn is correct in his explanation (and I have no to reason to not believe him), CineMotion should not be needed for playback of BluRay 1080p@24hz content, assuming a 5:5 pull down is used (which we are assuming). CineMotion could be needed (or useful) if either we are wrong and the display is not doing a 5:5 pulldown or as you (or someone else) have suggested, the player is not outputting 1080p@24hz.

Here is a bit of pure conjecture, meaning there is no basis in fact except that I have seen it happen before: What if the effect that the CineMotion control has on the playback of 1080p@24hz material is purely coincidental. What if the system designers assumed that when ever 1080p@24hz material was being input, the Cinemotion controls would be off. I had this situation with a Denon DVD player. I complained that a certain control had an impact on a digital signal when it was not suppose to. They told me," Doh! Why do you have it on when outputting a digital signal?"

Originally Posted by Strawdawg

When Sony says True, they mean they don't do any interpolation schemes...they simply do 5, 5, ,5 ,5.....

Motion Enhancer appears to interpolate frame to frame.

Cinemotion is the reverse pull down to counteract the 2:3 pull down applied to 24 to get them to broadcast 30 fps as you state in your last sentence.

As Donb1948 stated above, it may be a software process that can be left on during 24 fps playback, but, that does not mean it is required...or even should be used...even if you think it looks smoother.

There can easily be judder in 24 fps depending upon camera pan speed and lens settings. Covering it up may be more appealing to your eye..but, it does not mean there is a fault in the 24 fps playback.

Originally Posted by joevfx

and about standard def dvds. are you sure they arent 24fps? cuase if they were already converted to 30 then dvd players and tvs woudltn have to do and 2:3 to it sicne its already 30. i think standard def dvds are at 24 thast why the tvs or dvd plays have a conversion processes to covnert it to 30, since before now tvs could only play back 30fps footage.

Originally Posted by joevfx

why would it do anythign to film based content if it can display at 24? there definition of 24p tru cinima says it plays back film based content without any additional conversion processes. but the the cinamotion says it convert film based content. so what gives?

Originally Posted by walk

Because it's for 1080i or 480i TV sources where the film based content has been converted to 60i (60hz interlaced) by 3:2 pulldown - also known as tele-cine process.. "Cinemotion" should apply a reverse 3:2 pulldown, or "inverse telecine / IVTC" to re-create the (progressive) frames at 24hz.

Then the A3000 converts that to 120hz... somehow (120 = 24 x 5)

Originally Posted by Strawdawg

I believe the key is the term "automatically". Far as I know there is no encoding on the signal to differentiate 24 or 30 fps frame rate. Once signal comes down the pipeline, there must be some algorithm that looks at the data and decides if it was film based or not. Or, there simply may be an error that does not turn off the software when the data is clearly 24fps as from a bluray.

I suspect we are trying to create a theory when none is needed If concerned, give Sony Tech a call and try to wrestle an answer from them. No one will dispute that documentation is less than clear, nor, less than comprehensive...that is for sure!

Originally Posted by Vetkin

I've noticed this with my CineMotion settings and Motion Enhancer also. ME doesn't seem to have any affect on the picture when CM is turned off, but when I turn CM on the motion becomes ultra smooth.

What I don't understand is why it seems to affect my blu-ray movies and regular DVDs the same way. The manual states that CM performs reverse 3:2 pulldown, so wouldn't this setting not be needed for true 24p blu-ray playback? I am outputting the blu-ray at 24p with a ps3 and I still don't get the fluid motion unless I turn CM on. Do I have something set up incorrectly or am I just misunderstanding how the technology works? The CM seems to add in artifacts on the edges of fast moving images also, but that could be due to a combination of CM and one of my other settings, I haven't determined if CM alone is the cause of that yet.

Does anyone have an idea of what might be happening here? Has anyone been able to achieve that ultra fluid motion on a 24p feed without CineMotion turned on?

Originally Posted by saylor

Isn't this a settings and tweak thread ?? Just wondering, because all this talk belongs in the "OWNERS THREAD" ...

Originally Posted by Hughmc

This may help a little:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/24p.


I also don't believe the 24p to 120hz on the A3000 is done by multiplying 24x5. It makes sense, but like so many others have said why does Sony or others comment that it does it directly with no conversion.

Originally Posted by Hughmc

donb1948, progressive DVD's on an HDTV do not have to do 3:2 pulldown or reverse telecine if I read correctly. They only have to do that on a standard NTSC tv.

Originally Posted by Hughmc

I also don't believe the 24p to 120hz on the A3000 is done by multiplying 24x5. It makes sense, but like so many others have said why does Sony or others comment that it does it directly with no conversion.

Originally Posted by Hughmc

This may help a little:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/24p.

donb1948, progressive DVD's on an HDTV do not have to do 3:2 pulldown or reverse telecine if I read correctly. They only have to do that on a standard NTSC tv.

I also don't believe the 24p to 120hz on the A3000 is done by multiplying 24x5. It makes sense, but like so many others have said why does Sony or others comment that it does it directly with no conversion.

Originally Posted by donb1948

Yes, that's partially correct. If the display device or source takes the high def disk content (1080p@24hz) content to a 120hz display refresh rate using the 5:5 pulldown then 3:2 reverse telecine is not needed. But, there are other ways to get to the 120hz refresh rate that would require the reverse 3:2 telecine. Also, in addition to the NTSC broadcast of telecined film stock, 3:2 pull down is needed for standard dvds containing material that was telecined processed from 24hz film stock.

I have not seen any Sony documentation that says the display does no processing to play the 1080p@24hz high def dvd content at a 120hz refreah rate. It's my belief, that folks are just interpreting the specs that way. The display might not do a 3:2 pull down to convert to 30hz or 60hz before duplicating frames to get to a 120hz refresh rate, but it must do something. And of the alternatives, the so-called 5:5 pulldown would be optimum.

also the mitubishi 833 accepts 1920x1080@24hz, 1920x1080@30hz, and 1920x1080@60hz. isnt that multiply refresh rates? im sure the Sony does that same.

The only way the display could show the 1080p@24hz content without some sort of "processing" would require the display to have a 24hz refresh rate. Computer monitors have been traditionally designed to operate at multiple refresh rates, but not TVs. We are stuck in this case with 120hz, which is not bad at all.

Originally Posted by donb1948

In deference to saylor and others who do not "enjoy" this exchange on the dynamics of what's happening with the 120hz refresh rates, I'll make this final post and then quit.

First, for an excellent discussion of interlaced/progressive conversions and why it's needed, take a look at this article: Film-to-Video Conversion Scroll down the page to where the background changes color. That's where the good stuff starts.

Also, I keep a database of interesting stuff I come across on the web. Here are parts of three posts, I believe by "walk," that I saved concerning the display of 24hz-based material at 120hz. 5:5 pulldown and a lot of other stuff is covered. In my opinion, the information is correct. But be aware, it is a combination of fact and speculation in regard to how the displays actually work. Here are the three original posts (by walk?):

You guys are actually doing the math backward. It is mostly a matter of semantics, but here is how it actually works....
The 120Hz frequency is actually 5 times faster than the 24Hz frequency. You're not displaying a 24Hz frame 5 times to reach 120Hz, you're actually displaying a 120Hz frame 5 times to reach a 24Hz refresh. When you think about it backward, you can end up confusing yourself.
A 60Hz refresh must display one frame 3 times and the next frame 2 times in the same time it takes to display 2 frames of 24Hz. That is where the term 3:2 cadence comes from. If you have 24Hz frames that are called A, B, C, and D, the native 24Hz would be displayed like this A B C D. The 60Hz display (being 2.5 times faster) will display A A A B B C C C D D (3:2 cadence). With the 60Hz refresh, frames A and C would get equal display time whereas B and D would only get 2/3 of the time displayed. This causes judder. A 120Hz frame rate would look like this... A A A A A B B B B B C C C C C D D D D D. This is where the term 5:5 cadence comes from. In the time it takes to display 2 of the 24Hz frames, each of those frames would have been displayed 5 times at 120Hz. Each frame would get equal time. In 120Hz, each frame would get equally displayed, thus smoother motion.
Now, if you have black frame insertion, you might have something like this with 120Hz.... A A A _ _ B B B _ _ C C C _ _ D D D _ _. The blanks would represent a black screen and are placed there to create a more natural motion, like old film projectors. Motion enhancing might look like this A A A AB AB B B B BC BC C C C CD CD D D D DE DE... and so on where the double letters would represent an artificially generated frame. You can see where you might get some blur with the motion enhancing mode.
I know that most of you know this stuff, just trying the help new people understand it better. When we speak of converting a 24Hz signal to 120Hz, we know what we are talking about, we actually say it backward because it is easier to use those terms. What is actually done is what is described above, ie. convert a 120Hz refresh to make it look like a 24Hz refresh. Keep that in mind when you read these threads.

Pasted from

A few other things. A previous poster asked about inverse telecine and what the TV would do when it got back to 24p....
What happens when a video processor (VP) does inverse telecine is that it must recognize a 3:2 cadence (A A A B B C C C D D at 60Hz) and convert it back to its natural 1:1 cadence (A B C D at 24Hz).
This set is a 120Hz set and it can only function at 120Hz. If it is able to recognize the 3:2 cadence and convert back to 24Hz, the set would display a 5:5 cadence. If it does not recognize the telecine (3:2 cadence), it would just display the 60Hz signal twice and you'd have (A A A A A A B B B B C C C C C C D D D D) a 6:4 cadence. This would look much like the 3:2 cadence I guess.
This set doesn't have a 24Hz refresh, but it is compatible with a 24Hz refresh (24p). Sets that just double the 60Hz signal are not compatible with 24Hz refresh in the way the Sony is and still have judder due to 6:4 cadence. It remains to be seen if the Sonys will perform the inverse telecine.
Broadcast TV is sent out at 60Hz. For a movie with a 24Hz refresh, that means they have to perform telecine (3:2) on the signal to be compatible with the 60Hz signal before it is sent out. The TV (if it is 120Hz) can either double the 60Hz frame (giving a 6:4 cadence), or perform inverse telecine and give you a 5:5 cadence. You can see why the latter is preferred. Some VP's will perform the inverse telecine (mostly high end units costing thousands, but perhaps the Onkyo 905 or the new Denons AVR's can).

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While I'm at it, I thought I'd throw out a few more things. Not everything out there is filmed at 24Hz (24p from now on). Some things are filmed at 60Hz (60p). Movies and some TV series (eg. 24) are filmed at 24p as this is supposed to give you a very natural feeling of movement. Here is where I get a bit fuzzy... I believe sports are filmed at 30 or 60p. This is where the math starts to change a little. Most of the previous sets were 60Hz refresh sets and could display a 30p or 60p picture natively without giving you judder. The good thing about a 120Hz display is that, not only can it display a 24p without judder, it can also display the 30 and 60p images without judder as 24, 30, and 60 are all multiples of 120. ie. each frame can be displayed an equal amount of time on a 120Hz set. The 30p would give a 4:4 cadence and the 60p would give a 2:2 cadence.
If for instance, you had a 72Hz display, that would display the 24p picture better than the 60Hz would, but it would reek havoc with the 30p and 60p cadences. As long as they don't start throwing 50p or some other weird refresh at us, we'll be alright with the 120Hz displays.

Pasted from

Originally Posted by joevfx

they way you are describing it though it needs a conversion done to the 24hz signal. Sony is saying there is no film to video conversion done on the 24p signal