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Bad Jaggies in Menu of Hd-dvd in 720p, not in 1080i?

post #1 of 15
9/10/07 at 8:44pm
Thread Starter 
Hey guys. This isnt super important, but Im just kinda curious. I have a hda2 and a 720p Samsung 50" dlp. Originally I was flipping back and forth between 720p and 1080i and I could not really tell a difference between the two (or if I thought I did, i wasnt sure it wasnt all in my head). Anyways. where I COULD notice a differnce was in the menu's of hd-dvds. EVERY ONE i tried in 720p had really bad jaggies, very un-HD like. Around all the words, numbers, lines of the little menus that pop up when hit "menu". In 1080i, they are smooth as silk, no jaggies at all! I couldnt see a marked difference between in-movie PQ, but I am just curious about this.

BTW, I have tried adjusting set sharpness to no avail.

Any insight? Thanks!
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post #2 of 15
9/10/07 at 8:52pm
Most likely a side effect of the doubble scalling.

Since HDDVDs are 1080p scalling down to 720p and then again (up) to match the native res of the display means more chances for jaggies to appear.

Yet a single scale from 1080i (remember 1080i is the same res as 1080p) to your screens native res = less processing = better image.

In theory multiple down scales should work fine, but the moment you scale down then up again you'll end up with "effects" - either jaggies or bluries.
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post #3 of 15
9/10/07 at 9:02pm
PS the reason why you probably didn't notice it as much when watching a film is because the picture structure of a film is much more random than a menu so any introduced jaggies come accorss as increase in high frequiencey noise when the display area is within a certain size limit.
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post #4 of 15
9/10/07 at 9:03pm
It sounds like the scaler in your Samsung is doing a better job at converting 1080i > 720p than your TV is. I have the same situation with my JVC 720p D-ILA. The text is not as clear when I set the A2 to 720p, so I leave it at 1080i and let my TV do the conversion.

I do the same with my HD-DVR.
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post #5 of 15
9/10/07 at 9:50pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tokerblue View Post

It sounds like the scaler in your Samsung is doing a better job at converting 1080i > 720p than your TV is. I have the same situation with my JVC 720p D-ILA. The text is not as clear when I set the A2 to 720p, so I leave it at 1080i and let my TV do the conversion.

I do the same with my HD-DVR.

So you think that 1080i would be better for me, even given that my tv is native 720p? This wouldnt have any effect on motion during movies, right? as 720p is supposed to be able to show motion better w\\o picture breakup...setting as 1080i output wouldnt be noticeable in that regard?

In addition, samsung tvs do have a small known issue where they seem to have trouble deinterlacing 1080, this is displayed through a very high speed flutter or "vibration" of sorts of static lines. Where this is most evident is in FBI warnings, again I have yet to notice them in movies...nothing to worry about I suppose?


All of this is really making me rethink my decision of "ah, 720p is good enough for me, i dont need to spring for 1080p yet!"
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post #6 of 15
9/11/07 at 4:27am
Yes 1080i is probbly the best setting (not all tv's labeled as 720p are exactly 720p).

Since film is 24p, running at 1080/60i vs 720p/60 should have no noticeable effect on motion as they both carry more "frames" than the source.

However if you set has problem de-interlacing then the choice is yours, minor flutter vs minor jaggies.

I know my Samsung plasma had minor de-interlacing issues (1024 x 1024 screen), but my new panasonic plasma works a real treat (native 720p) even though it's lower res.

Final recomendation, pick the method you like the best and forget about it. You're still getting some damn fine HD.
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post #7 of 15
9/11/07 at 7:22pm
720p Panny AE900 - early HD-A1 adopter - so obviously started with 1080i (due to early 720p problems). After later Toshiba updates resolved the 720p output problems, I went 720p output for a few movies - then noticed occasional cases of extreme jaggies...a 1080i compare showed a clean pic. Permanently on 1080i with my HD-A1/AE900 combo.
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post #8 of 15
9/11/07 at 8:07pm
Don't you guys think it should depend on the software played. If the material is HDDVD or Bluray at 1080i/p, of course, I will set my A2 at 1080i for less conversion. If the material is a regular DVD, which is 480i, I will set the A2 at 720P.

That means no matter the conversion is up or down, you only convert it 1 time to match the native resolution of your 720P display.
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post #9 of 15
9/11/07 at 8:08pm
I have the A2 as well...Just received it last friday and also have a Sammy Plasma (the 5054 model). I noticed the same thing too on 720 and the Menu screen. I just tested 1080I and it seems to take away the Menu Jaggies...I will check it out for a couple more days and decide what I like but did not really notice any real difference in PQ during movie playback (maybe 1080I seemed SLIGHTLY better but that could be in my head)
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post #10 of 15
9/11/07 at 8:37pm
I think the 720p scaling in the A2 is poop. The menus look terrible, I don't recall the movie being affected though. Could be, didn't really check. Doesn't the A2 not have a dedicated hardware scaler? Isn't this done through the NEC SOC or the celeron in software? Both the A2 and the A1 are unusable at 720p. My XA2 was absolutely perfect at 720p. Maybe you could try the A20 if it matters? That one has the Anchor Bay scaler in it.
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post #11 of 15
9/11/07 at 9:11pm
I noticed the same thing with the a2 and my 720p display. 1080i definitely looks better.
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post #12 of 15
9/11/07 at 9:15pm
Ok here is the deal:

The HD-A2 does an excellent job scaling video to 720p. What it has problems with is overlays. I have confirmed through my own testing that it takes one field of the 1080i overlay and scales it to 720p using the "nearest neighbor" algorithm. This effectively takes the 540 lines and doubles every other one to get 720 lines. Its dead obvious when you have 1:1 mapping on a 720p projector with a 98 inch screen.

But who cares its just the menus, everything else looks wonderful at 720p.
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post #13 of 15
9/12/07 at 6:53pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by abr27440 View Post

Ok here is the deal:

The HD-A2 does an excellent job scaling video to 720p. What it has problems with is overlays. I have confirmed through my own testing that it takes one field of the 1080i overlay and scales it to 720p using the "nearest neighbor" algorithm. This effectively takes the 540 lines and doubles every other one to get 720 lines. Its dead obvious when you have 1:1 mapping on a 720p projector with a 98 inch screen.

But who cares its just the menus, everything else looks wonderful at 720p.

so it IS just menus? The picture quality in the movie shouldnt really affected. Would it better to set a2 to 720p so it is deinterlacing and scaling, or is 1080i the best bet (even with the high speed flutter) with the a2 de interlacing and the tv scaling down the 720?
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post #14 of 15
9/13/07 at 7:22am
Quote:
Originally Posted by RipcordAFF View Post

so it IS just menus? The picture quality in the movie shouldnt really affected. Would it better to set a2 to 720p so it is deinterlacing and scaling, or is 1080i the best bet (even with the high speed flutter) with the a2 de interlacing and the tv scaling down the 720?

I would say no, it's not just the menus. When I tested the A2 at 720p, not only were the menus and overlays jagged, but I also noticed anomalies on the "This Preview Is Rated <>" screens, the copyright screens, etc. The text was all broken up around the edges...not smooth as it should be. Rather than take the chance, I would set it to 1080 and let the display downconvert.

Switching to 1080 yielded a much cleaner picture.
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post #15 of 15
9/13/07 at 3:23pm
On my A1, all Universal releases since "Children of Men" show terrible jaggies on both the menu and the movie in the 720p mode. Switching to 1080i clears up the problem.

I do not have the problem with my new XA2 however.

-Byrd
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