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Denon Video Processor - Page 8

post #211 of 953
I have compared the Edge to the Denon AVP which has a Realta T2. The Denon pre-amp and receiver series does not, however, give the user much control. For example, there are virtually no adjustments possible to an HDMI input of any kind except conversion of lesser resolutions to 1080p60Hz or 24Hz. Despite the lack of user controls the picture that comes out of AVP processing is usually perfect and needs no adjustment. It also just subjectively looks better than the Edge output, perhaps for the reasons cpcat states. I prefer the Denon processed picture but I groan at the total lack of user control so I use my Edge to feed satellite and OTA to the Denon. DVDs played from my Oppo BDP-83 is an interesting problem. Some DVDs look better when output from the Oppo as 1080p while others are better upscaled by the Denon. It depends on the DVD. I do not feed DVDs or BDs through the EDGE.

The bottom line is that there is no perfect solution. If you want control you need a high end VP, if you want plug and play, the Denon Realta implementation in processors and high end receivers seems to make most sources look quite good. It's a matter of taste, but I would jump at a Denon VP with the controls of a Lumagen. For the moment i would be satisfied with a Denon DVP-602 at the price of an Edge.
post #212 of 953
I thought the AVP allowed selectable 480p/720p/1080i/1080p24/1080p60 output as well as control of hue, saturation, contrast, brightness, detail, and DNR functions.

Anyway, the 602ci is more flexible than the AVP on the video side (as it should be being a standalone VP). Per-input configurable output settings are nice. For example, I leave my PS3 and Oppo 970 inputs configured for 1080p24 output while my D* box input is configured for 1080p60. This way I don't have to switch b/w 1080p24/p60 (although there's also a toggle for it if necessary). It's not as user-configurable as something like a Lumagen Radiance though and there's no CMS.
post #213 of 953
Page 54 AVR manual states that the chroma, hue, brightness and contrast settings do not work on HDMI inputs. It states DNR, Enhancer, and Sharpness are active but I have not confirmed this--I will go try tonight and report back. Settings for each input are automatically stored.

So I was half wrong, half-right. Apparently they assume the user will have a calibrated display, a pass-though AV processor and will adjust these parameters at the source (or not touch them at all.)
post #214 of 953
The manual is correct. On a HDMI input with the Denon AVP (and I assume all receivers but I don't know that) you cannot adjust chroma, brightness, contrast, or hue. You have a couple of rudimentary size settings and that's about it. It is not a VP. That said, the picture that comes out is very good indeed. I upscales, deinterlaces, and processes (edge sharpening, noise reduction, enhancement) very well indeed. It's as I said, the Denon makes the more impressive picture but the Edge allows you to adjust much more and many different ways. The Edge picture is no slouch either.
post #215 of 953
Quote:
Originally Posted by AudioBear View Post

For the moment i would be satisfied with a Denon DVP-602 at the price of an Edge.

That would be amazing. That would be shock and awe outright.

I don't think it could go that low but this is such an off the radar product and I really think its biggest problem is (IMHO) its overbloated $2499 MSRP.


I still haven't forgotten about this thing. I'm still intruiged by it.

I've literally scoured the Internet and there's just nothing out there about it at all outside of this forum. No outlet including Secrets or anyone has ever bothered to review it or anything.

Earlier in the thread Joerod suggested an MSRP of $1499. I think that would be a really good start.

I'm cynical enough to believe that the price on this unit would be a lot less than $2499 if it weren't for the name "Denon." I guess it would be $3999 if had the "Marantz" name on it and $6999 or more if it had "McIntosh" on it.

There's several other companies that I view in simillar cynical fashion but that may be just me.


I almost wonder if this product has already been discontinued because when I go to Denon's site for it all I get is a runtime error and a bad link.

See for yourselves:
http://www.usa.denon.com/ProductDetails/4154.asp


I think Denon has a real potential winner here based on the specs and what you guys that actually own the thing have said about it, especially cpcat, but IMO...they need to get real on the price and they actually need to get the thing out to at least one major review outlet because this thing is a ghost otherwise.

Even I know and can appreciate what a great implementation of an HQV Realta T2 product brings to the table.





Quote:
Originally Posted by batborsen View Post

WOOHOO! I got hold of this baby at the cost of 1K

I'm dying to know how.



EDIT: Anyone try any videogames out with this?
post #216 of 953
The Denon DVP602CI has a problem with flipped fields on 1080i HDMI from my DVR (Sony DHG-HDD500). When i/p Scaler is OFF, the DVR's video passes through fine, but the fields are flipped on the Denon's menus. When i/p Scaler is ON, the fields are flipped on the DVR's video, and the fields are flipped twice on the Denon's menus. This problem does not happen for my other sources.

Lumagen has a Field Flip option on some of its processors to correct this kind of problem, but I don't see a similar setting on the Denon. The work-around is to use 720p HDMI or 1080i YPbPr from the source instead of 1080i HDMI.

Has anyone else noticed this problem?
post #217 of 953
Explain to me what you are seeing that indicates "flipped fields"...and what output setting are you using to the display?
post #218 of 953
Quote:
Originally Posted by cpcat View Post

Explain to me what you are seeing that indicates "flipped fields"...and what output setting are you using to the display?

If one field contains these lines:

1,3,5,7,...,1077,1079

and the other field contains these lines:

2,4,6,8,...,1078,1080

then they should be displayed in this order:

1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,...,1077,1078,1079,1080

but the DVP602CI causes them to be displayed in this order:

2,1,4,3,6,5,8,7,...,1078,1077,1080,1079

or something like that. I can post pictures if anyone is interested.

The problem happens when the DVP602CI's output to the display is 1080i, 1080p, or 1080p24. (I have not tested the DVP602CI's other outputs such as 480p and 720p.) The problem is just as obvious on still images as it is on moving images, so it has nothing to do with motion or frame rate. All diagonal edges appear to be feathered.
post #219 of 953
So I assume the answer to my question is that you are seeing feathering artifacts. This would more likely be due to something amiss with how the deinterlacing is being done. Be sure you are set to "auto" for deinterlacing mode. "video 1" forces video mode deinterlacing while "video 2" forces film mode. Either can cause deinterlacing errors for the wrong corresponding sources.

If you are seeing feathering with a 1080i source with the 602 set to 1080i output then the display would be the culprit as it is doing the deinterlacing.

Also, if you are using the Sony to reinterlace an original 720p source to 1080i before sending to the Denon artifacts could result. Always send the native signal to processor if possible.

I have seen no such problems on the 602ci. If you are still seeing this but ONLY with the Sony then it may be specific to the Sony DVR. If you are seeing it with more than one source then I suppose you could have a problem with your 602.

FYI if an interlaced source is displayed on a progressive display fields are NOT shown, only frames. That is the point of deinterlacing. Fields are only shown in sequence on an interlaced display i.e. CRT.
post #220 of 953
Quote:
Originally Posted by cpcat View Post

Be sure you are set to "auto" for deinterlacing mode. "video 1" forces video mode deinterlacing while "video 2" forces film mode. Either can cause deinterlacing errors for the wrong corresponding sources.

The Progressive Mode makes no difference. I tried all three modes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cpcat View Post

If you are seeing feathering with a 1080i source with the 602 set to 1080i output then the display would be the culprit as it is doing the deinterlacing.

In the case where i/p Scaler is set to OFF, feathering appears on the 602's menu but not on the DVR's menu. The menus are on the screen at the same time. The display cannot possibly know which menu is which and treat them differently, so I am sure that the display is not to blame.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cpcat View Post

Also, if you are using the Sony to reinterlace an original 720p source to 1080i before sending to the Denon artifacts could result. Always send the native signal to processor if possible.

The DVR is playing an original 1080i source.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cpcat View Post

If you are still seeing this but ONLY with the Sony then it may be specific to the Sony DVR. If you are seeing it with more than one source then I suppose you could have a problem with your 602.

I see the problem with both of my Sony DVRs, but I don't see it with my other sources. When I feed the DVR's video directly to my displays, there is no feathering. It seems that the DVR's 1080i HDMI video has an unusual characteristic that my displays handle properly but the 602 does not handle properly.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cpcat View Post

FYI if an interlaced source is displayed on a progressive display fields are NOT shown, only frames. That is the point of deinterlacing. Fields are only shown in sequence on an interlaced display i.e. CRT.

I don't have a CRT that can display the 602's output, but I suppose that the same problem would appear on a CRT.
post #221 of 953
I'd have to agree with Erik based on his descriptions. I have seen similar issues that were source related and more specifically to the implementation of the HDMI transmitter. The result is very similar to a combing effect (but it is always present) and very easy to see on static images.
post #222 of 953
Yes, it would seem to be a problem related to the Sony DVRs.

Of course, good luck in getting someone at Sony to admit that.
post #223 of 953
Quote:
Originally Posted by cpcat View Post

Yes, it would seem to be a problem related to the Sony DVRs.

Of course, good luck in getting someone at Sony to admit that.

As I see it, even though the DVR produces an unusual signal, it is still a valid signal, since my displays have no problem with it. The 602 has a problem with it, so I think Denon should fix the 602, maybe by updating the firmware.
post #224 of 953
I hope that will happen. Did you shoot an email off to Denon?

AFAIK, Geo semiconductors is the "new Silicon Optix" and should be handling the Realta at this point. The original founder of SO now heads Geo and continues to manufacture (and presumably support) both the Realta and the Geo chip. Denon should be able to update firmware if necessary in concert/with help from Geo.

http://www.geosemi.com/products.htm
post #225 of 953
Quote:
Originally Posted by cpcat View Post

I hope that will happen. Did you shoot an email off to Denon?

AFAIK, Geo semiconductors is the "new Silicon Optix" and should be handling the Realta at this point. The original founder of SO now heads Geo and continues to manufacture (and presumably support) both the Realta and the Geo chip. Denon should be able to update firmware if necessary in concert/with help from Geo I'd assume.

Have they ever updated the firmware in the time that the 602 has been out that you know of?


http://www.usa.denon.com/ProductDetails/4154.asp

I still wonder where this product really sits with Denon when the product page itself has been down like this for I couldn't tell you how many weeks and weeks now.


Hope it's treating you and the other owners well.
post #226 of 953
Quote:
Originally Posted by cpcat View Post

Did you shoot an email off to Denon?

I sent a message to Denon today.
post #227 of 953
Quote:
Originally Posted by Q of BanditZ View Post

Have they ever updated the firmware in the time that the 602 has been out that you know of?

No, but there haven't been any issues yet, either, other than this one. They've updated the AVP (including the Realta functionality) though.
post #228 of 953
Quote:
Originally Posted by Erik Garci View Post

If one field contains these lines:

1,3,5,7,...,1077,1079

and the other field contains these lines:

2,4,6,8,...,1078,1080

then they should be displayed in this order:

1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,...,1077,1078,1079,1080

but the DVP602CI causes them to be displayed in this order:

2,1,4,3,6,5,8,7,...,1078,1077,1080,1079

or something like that. I can post pictures if anyone is interested.

The problem happens when the DVP602CI's output to the display is 1080i, 1080p, or 1080p24. (I have not tested the DVP602CI's other outputs such as 480p and 720p.) The problem is just as obvious on still images as it is on moving images, so it has nothing to do with motion or frame rate. All diagonal edges appear to be feathered.



the Crystalio 2 scaler has an option for this, called even field first, odd field first.

Michael
post #229 of 953
Quote:
Originally Posted by Erik Garci View Post

The problem happens when the DVP602CI's output to the display is 1080i, 1080p, or 1080p24. (I have not tested the DVP602CI's other outputs such as 480p and 720p.)

Today I tested 1080i->480p and 1080i->720p, and there is feathering, and it is blurrier as to be expected.
post #230 of 953
This image is a simulation of what the field flip (or field swap) looks like.
LL
post #231 of 953
Quote:
Originally Posted by nidi View Post

the Crystalio 2 scaler has an option for this, called even field first, odd field first.

1080i is typically top field first. I suspect that the Sony DVR is producing bottom field first.
post #232 of 953
I've had this unit for goodness knows how many months and I'm JUST about to put it into my system. This is after being warned by a calibrator that VPs tend to do more damage than good, at least when used with something like my JVC RS20 projector.

I'm so dang confused about this whole VP thing...but into the waters I tred. Hoping for the best.
post #233 of 953
Don't worry Rich, just tell him to get the colors right. The 602 will do the rest.
post #234 of 953
Quote:
Originally Posted by Q of BanditZ View Post



I still haven't forgotten about this thing. I'm still intruiged by it.

....but IMO...they need to get real on the price and they actually need to get the thing out to at least one major review outlet because this thing is a ghost otherwise.

Even I know and can appreciate what a great implementation of an HQV Realta T2 product brings to the table.

The NR in the Realta continues to be underappreciated IMO. This was a big thrust in its conception to prevent noise interference in broadcast applications apparently.

Not long ago, people were paying ~3.5k for Algolith Mosquito HDMIs and ~800 for Algolith Flea HDMIs alone.

IMO 2.5k isn't that much of a stretch for the number of HDMI inputs as well as the per-input output configuration settings the 602ci provides. The 602ci sits nicely in price/performance between EDGE/DUO and Lumagen Radiance and for many probably has a better price/performance ratio than the Radiance XD.

The problem at this point is can you still get one?
post #235 of 953
cpcat, AudioBear, and others,
Based on your experience with the Denon AVP (w/ Realta vp) and the AVR-4310 (w/ ABT-2010 vp), and comparing to the capabilities of the Denon 602 (w/ Realta vp), I was wondering if you would summarize w.r.t. final PQ, IYO:

1) The differences between the AVP vs 602 implementation (feature set) of the Realta vp.
2) The differences between the ABT-2010 (in the 4310) vs the Realta in the 602.

I was/am planning on getting the AVR-5308CI, which I assume has the same implementation set for the Realta as the AVP. (AudioBear, is this correct?) In researching on the AVRs out there, within the last year, I read good things about the Realta vp, and I wanted excellent audio capability.

I want to setup my HT for THX viewing recommendations, using the High Presence viewing distance (40deg max viewing angle, or dist = 1.2*TV_diag), but in addition to HD movies, I also watch SD source material (mainly cableTV). I've been reading comments on the forum about eyestrain while viewing at this close distance, due to cableTV compression artifacts - such as block and mosquito noise. I was hoping that the Realta vp on the 5308 would be able to cleanup this possible source of noise induced on the converted 1080p signal to the HDTV (hopefully, a Panny TCP-65V10) . Hence, my researching has now brought me to the "Video Processors" threads on this Forum.

I find it curious that Denon's 602 link on their website isn't working! Has anyone shot off an email to them about this? Is it a hint that it's being discontinued and that they'll be introducing a new DVP model soon, or could it just be an IT oversight - faulty link???

I also hope that the recent SO to Geo Semiconductor spin-off will stay afloat, and continue to support (and upgrade) the Realta chip.

Thanks, in advance,
John
post #236 of 953
Quote:
Originally Posted by AVid_John View Post


I find it curious that Denon's 602 link on their website isn't working! Has anyone shot off an email to them about this? Is it a hint that it's being discontinued and that they'll be introducing a new DVP model soon, or could it just be an IT oversight - faulty link???

http://www.usa.denon.com/ProductDetails/4154.asp

I've been wondering this for several months.

There's that and the fact that this unit has been out for at least a year and even now, once you leave this forum there's pretty much zero out there about it even to this day.

I find it remarkable that not even ONE outlet ever reviewed it in all this time.


Cpcat has pretty much been a one man army for this unit.

I'm guessing it's been discontinued and probably several months ago because that's when I first noticed that product link not working correctly.

Amazon is now out of stock whereas they'd said "we have 2 left" or something like that for the last few weeks.

Some unknown Amazon third party has a refurb supposedly...the One Call listing that were there are gone... One Call themselves lists it as "on order..." Crutchfield and other retailers haven't had it for...heh, about the same time that link stopped working give or take.


I think it's gone and done with myself.


It's very obviously becoming scarce and disappearing if someone wants to buy one.


I'll be interested to see if Erik Garci ever gets any help from Denon for his 602 issue or not.
post #237 of 953
Quote:
Originally Posted by AVid_John View Post

cpcat, AudioBear, and others,
Based on your experience with the Denon AVP (w/ Realta vp) and the AVR-4310 (w/ ABT-2010 vp), and comparing to the capabilities of the Denon 602 (w/ Realta vp), I was wondering if you would summarize w.r.t. final PQ, IYO:

1) The differences between the AVP vs 602 implementation (feature set) of the Realta vp.
2) The differences between the ABT-2010 (in the 4310) vs the Realta in the 602.

I was/am planning on getting the AVR-5308CI, which I assume has the same implementation set for the Realta as the AVP. (AudioBear, is this correct?) In researching on the AVRs out there, within the last year, I read good things about the Realta vp, and I wanted excellent audio capability.

I want to setup my HT for THX viewing recommendations, using the High Presence viewing distance (40deg max viewing angle, or dist = 1.2*TV_diag), but in addition to HD movies, I also watch SD source material (mainly cableTV). I've been reading comments on the forum about eyestrain while viewing at this close distance, due to cableTV compression artifacts - such as block and mosquito noise. I was hoping that the Realta vp on the 5308 would be able to cleanup this possible source of noise induced on the converted 1080p signal to the HDTV (hopefully, a Panny TCP-65V10) . Hence, my researching has now brought me to the "Video Processors" threads on this Forum.

I find it curious that Denon's 602 link on their website isn't working! Has anyone shot off an email to them about this? Is it a hint that it's being discontinued and that they'll be introducing a new DVP model soon, or could it just be an IT oversight - faulty link???

I also hope that the recent SO to Geo Semiconductor spin-off will stay afloat, and continue to support (and upgrade) the Realta chip.

Thanks, in advance,
John

John,

I can't really help a lot. Cpcat might be the better judge. I have never directly compared a 5308 with an AVP and I do not know if the implementation is the same. My guess is yes, that they use the same video board.

I have also never seen the 4310 so I can't compare it with a Realta T2 driven device.

I'd guess the 602 is out of production. Denon is not a VP company and selling a standalone VP might have suggested to folks that their pre-pro and high end receiver needed help and couldn't stand alone. The 602 is not as full-featured as some more expensive processors and on the low side the DVDO Edge may have drained off at lot of potential customers. My guess is that they just used the video board from the AVP to make it so it was no big development cost to create and no big pain to drop -- not enough volume for Denon.

Let me try to answer your question. The Realta T2 in the AVP does a better job at block and mosquito reduction than the ABT chips in the Edge. It also produces a more pleasing picture -- to my eye stunning. Is the difference big? No! I often use my Edge instead of the AVP to control video because I like the menu system, remote and controls better. The difference in picture on a good signal is not big. On a bad compressed SD signal neither will make a good picture out of a bad source. I tend to use the Edge for SD, but sometimes I find the AVP just renders a better picture. You can't make a silk purse out of a sows ear, compressed pictures will never look like HD no matter how much processing you do. What about a good SD picture source? Well, I use the ABT video processing in my Oppo-BDP-83 to handle DVD upscaling and processing. I think it does as good a job as the AVP on good quality material. Close to a toss-up. Parenthetically let me add that I don't have or want the SE version of the Oppo because I bitstream to the AVP and nothing is going to match the AVP D/A and audio pre-amp out, it would be a waste of money and circuits for me.

Honestly, I think cpcat is right, the Realta T2 in the 602/5308/AVP does a top flight job. But there ABT solution is also very good. We are splitting hairs here. Both are excellent. In fact, I would suggest you make you choice based on something other than these two video processors per se. The 5308 is a very cost effective solution that gets you very nearly the same quality as the AVP for a lot less (given that it has the amps built in). If you don't mind the extra $$, the AVP is awesome. I love it. I have stopped tinkering around with audio and just listen now. I use a D-Sonic Class D 7 channel amp and the combination is sweet (do a search on D-sonic).

You may be over-analyzing. I would not worry about the difference between a 5308 and a 4810 video. But being newer, the 4810 might have other features you want that are more important.
post #238 of 953
Quote:
Originally Posted by AVid_John View Post

I find it curious that Denon's 602 link on their website isn't working! Has anyone shot off an email to them about this? Is it a hint that it's being discontinued and that they'll be introducing a new DVP model soon, or could it just be an IT oversight - faulty link???

I contacted Denon about the web page a week ago. I was told that their Web IT group is looking into it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Q of BanditZ View Post

I'll be interested to see if Erik Garci ever gets any help from Denon for his 602 issue or not.

I was told that Denon's product development group is looking into it. I will post any updates here.
post #239 of 953
Quote:
Originally Posted by Q of BanditZ View Post

http://www.usa.denon.com/ProductDetails/4154.asp

I've been wondering this for several months.

There's that and the fact that this unit has been out for at least a year and even now, once you leave this forum there's pretty much zero out there about it even to this day.

I find it remarkable that not even ONE outlet ever reviewed it in all this time.


Cpcat has pretty much been a one man army for this unit.

I'm guessing it's been discontinued and probably several months ago because that's when I first noticed that product link not working correctly.

Amazon is now out of stock whereas they'd said "we have 2 left" or something like that for the last few weeks.

Some unknown Amazon third party has a refurb supposedly...the One Call listing that were there are gone... One Call themselves lists it as "on order..." Crutchfield and other retailers haven't had it for...heh, about the same time that link stopped working give or take.


I think it's gone and done with myself.


It's very obviously becoming scarce and disappearing if someone wants to buy one.


I'll be interested to see if Erik Garci ever gets any help from Denon for his 602 issue or not.

small world

the reason the unit disappeared from the Amazon listing is that it is here in my home...for one more test. One more because I bought and returned this unit from Amazon in August: the one I received is the same one I returned: I know because the return paperwork is still in the box, so it seems there are not many of these units being sold.

The Denon VP is essentially the same as the VP in the Denon AVP: it has a large front panel display and the dual simultaneous HDMI outputs work

I also have the DVDO DUO and am comparing the two: if the DUO worked as advertised (dual simultaneous HDMI out) I would not be revisiting the Denon

My setup has an RT Com HS66 HDMI 6x6 matrix switcher in it: so any comparisons I report here may differ from what others will see ( the RT Com switch is expensive and far and away the best matrix switch I have ever tested)

My interest in comparing the DUO and the Denon had mainly to do with switching HDMI sources and speed of switching. Sources are OPPO, LG, and Sony ES BD's, a VUDU XL box, and a PC with HDMI card. Displays are a Kuro 141 and some Samsung LED LCD's

The DUO switches HDMI sources faster than the Denon: the DUO can do 4-5 second switches (hot plug on) while the Denon takes 7 seconds: and with the Denon it seems to require an extra HDMI handshake with the display, which probably accounts for the time difference

other likes/ dislikes:

Denon has Ethernet GUI: you can control it from your PC as well as RS232 and IR

DUO has test patterns which I use a lot: nice to have them built in

Denon has a large front panel display that tells what source is connected
and resolution of in and out: no front panel display on DUO

Denon has dual simultaneous outputs (both monitors must have same res)

I can confirm the Denon has never had a firmware update since August at the least: and it does seem to be a legacy unit. However sometimes Denon has provided firmware updates by email if you contact CS with an issue.

If DVDO would fix the dual out issue that would be my choice.

As far as processing abilities, that is a more subjective call I would have to spend more time looking at. I chuckle sometimes when I read about how one VP chip is better than another: I wonder if most folks can really see a difference and attribute it to a particular chip

Any more questions I would be happy to answer: I will return one of these units soon though
post #240 of 953
Quote:
Originally Posted by AVid_John View Post

2) The differences between the ABT-2010 (in the 4310) vs the Realta in the 602.


Basically, 602/Realta provides much more complete NR capability (ABT2010 only provides Mosquito NR and it's pretty basic IMO), slightly better SD/HD video deinterlacing, and equivalent SD/HD film deinterlacing (ABT 2010 performs slightly better with the S&M test disc but I've not seen any real-world differences). Scaling from 480->1080 and 720->1080 is slightly better with 602/Realta (less ringing). Overall, the most noticeable difference will be in the NR capability.

PQ is equivalent b/w the AVP/5308 and the 602 from what I can gather but the 602 offers more user customizable features (as it should being a standalone VP).
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