Denon Video Processor - Page 3

At least with the DTC-9.8/602, Reon/Realta scale almost perfectly going from 720->1080. ABT 2010 rings considerably. Realta is even a little better than Reon looking at the 720p SMPTE pattern.

It's with 480->1080 that both Reon/Realta mis-step slightly. However, although ABT shows less moire on the resolution patterns it also shows more noticeable ringing. So I guess you pick your poison there. 480 will always be 480 no matter what.

The cadence slips with film sources have been an issue for me with Reon as well. Thankfully, Realta seems to excel in that area.

That's good to hear.

Have any updates been made available yet? Or is it so stable in operation that there's pretty much no need?

No updates yet AFAIK, but it seems very stable. The only "bug" I've run into so far is the 1080p24 output "shimmering strip" at the very bottom of the image indentical to what was happening with DVDO Edge. It's only visible with 16:9 material obviously (2.35:1 masks it with black bars). The main difference b/w 602 and Edge in this regard is that with 602 film-source 1080p24 output is much more stable and artifact free for the most part (even with broadcast sources).

Other than that, I'd like to see the diagonal filtering (MDDF) tweaked a little. Since Realta's performance is software based, this should be very doable. Whether or not Denon/IDT will do it is another question. Certainly, the AVP A1HDCI has a significant number of owners, and since it also uses Realta, maybe some "tweaked" algorithms will spill over.

Edit: "shimmering strip" solved. See below.

I find it interesting how frame rate conversion to 24fps for film content is so hard to "perfectly" implement. You know it's difficult when the talented engineers at Denon are having some trouble with it.

As for your proposed improvements, you should provide Denon with some of your input. I've recently seen one of their discontinued AVR models get a firmware update based on a few suggestions. Let's just hope they don't charge money for any future update.

Just watched Wall-E with my family on DVD and 1080p24 output was flawless throughout. This was from PS3 @ 480p btw. The 602ci does progressive cadence detection as well.

I've found that the 1080p24 bottom-of-the-screen "shimmering" was my fault. My pj's vertical position control was not set properly and I was cropping some of the image. Now, it appears to be working flawlessly. This includes broadcast 1080i film sources which frankly surprises me as this seems so difficult to get right. I watched a couple of NCIS episodes today on USAHD and it was absolutely perfect.

This thing is starting to grow on me.

Cpcat,I might be blind or do not know what to look for,but where do you see this ringing with the Edge.Most of my viewing is Cable SD(480i) and HD(1080i) going to the edge then 1080p to my SXRD which is native 1080P anyways.I also feed my XA2 through the edge.I am not saying it is not there but I do not see it>

You may not see ringing at all but the overall effect will be to decrease detail/accuracy. It's a form of scaling error. To check for it, put up a sharpness or overscan test pattern (AVIA, DVE) and look at the black vertical lines on the pattern. A white halo next to the black vertical line indicates ringing. Be sure to disable edge enhancement in the processor and the display for this test as EE will add ringing of its own. Also, be sure there's only one scaling step being done to properly identify any source of error. For example, feed the processor a 480 DVD test pattern and allow it to convert to 1080 without anything performing scaling in-between source and display.

Watched 1080i (CBS) and 720p (FOX) as well as 1080i (NBC) football today and am happy to report excellent PQ for all. The best PQ for Sunday in my HT overall seen yet. Watched via OTA as well as D* Sunday Ticket. I experimented with the "enhancer" setting but ended up preferring it at zero.

I got an interesting email from IDT today regarding Realta:

Hello Charles,

The Realta chip was not included in the Silicon Optix products acquired by IDT. For information on the Realta products, you may wish to contact Mike Poirier, GM of the Teranex division of Silicon Optix. You can reach Mike at mike.poirier@teranex.com

All the best,
IDT HQV Team

What do you think this means for the future of the Realta chip?

Not quite sure.

I have an email into Mr. Poirier and so we'll hopefully have more info on this to come.

Hello cpcat! I have been perusing this forum and read your review on the 602. I own a Denon 3803 AVR and added the DVDO VP20 with the ABT102 chip a few years back. I have never really been happy with standard satellite viewing(it is bad and I cannot tell any difference with the VP20 on Direct TV) and called ABT to talk about the VP50 Pro with the 2010 chip and whether it would upconvert the std satellite from Direct TV. He said that the signal from Direct TV is more like truncated rather than compressed and there was little today that they can do but there was some work going on in the lab that they hope will be able to address this.

He also went on to say that the EDGE product is the only other ABT product besides the VP50Pro that has the 2010 and recommended that I buy the edge versus the VP50Pro given the price differential.

Okay, so at this point which was a couple of months ago I put to rest any processor changes.

Today, I was at the www.Listenup.com site looking at B&W speakers as I own the 804N and saw the Denon 602. They had a video interview from someone at Denon Jeff Talmadge Director of Product Development or similar title stating that their VP can upconvert std satellite and that was a goal of theirs as this is what people watch most of the time. The video is scripted to feed the cute young girl the right questions and the B&W 802D in the background was kinda nice with the claim that the Realta HQV Chip from Silicon Optix is what they are stating as the technical component performing this upgrade. I thought HQV stood for Hollywood Quality Video but he refers to it as something else (doesn't matter but I noticed it).

I go Hmmmmmmm. Out to the forums for validation!!!!! I read this one and now at long last ask my ultimate question????

Does the 602 do an appreciable job of upconverting the std satellite channels in your opinion?

Thanks much!

Hi Sticknstones and Happy New Year!

My experience with the 602 is that the 602 overall performs better than any VP I've yet had in my HT. This includes DVDO Edge, Integra DTC-9.8 (Reon), Anthem AVM50 (Gennum VXP), and Lumagen HDP. Scaling/deinterlacing is excellent from 480i to 1080p for SD and probably just as important is the excellent noise reduction from Realta. SD will always be SD mind you, but overall the 602 produces the best image I've seen yet (for both SD/HD) in my HT.

Hope that helps.

Yes sir it helps and now the plot thickens! By the way have you used these HQV Benchmark and HD HQV Benchmark disks before?

I ask as you mention reading the test patterns and wondered if you were using a neutral reference set. I am familiar with the AVIA but these looked interesting.

http://www.hqv.com/benchmark.cfm

Thanks again and Happy New Year to you!

Yes, I've tested all of my VP's with various test pattern discs including SD and HD versions of the HQV test disc, HD DVE, AVIA, and 1920 x 1080 test patterns provided by dr1934 here at AVS.

To sum up, Reon outperforms Realta by a minimal amount looking at the video deinterlacing "jaggies" test patterns for both 480i/1080i. Realta, Gennum VXP, and ABT 2010 are basically a tye with this test. For all other tests, Realta is either superior or equal to all others.

In real world viewing, the 602 excels at providing consistent and artifact-free imaging regardless of whether the source is SD/HD film or video. The noise reduction performance in particular as well as the ability to provide artifact-free 1080p24 from both SD/HD film sources sets it apart from the other VP's I've had in my HT.

Just watched CSI via D* HD DNS ch. 390 (CBS). 1080i->1080p24 conversion smooth as silk and artifact-free throughout.

With regards to SD DVD, how quickly does the frame-rate conversion engage a proper lock after performing a chapter skip or a pause-and-play? Is it consistently instantaneous?

Also, the manual indicates that it doesn't do the conversion for 1080p/60 input signals. This obviously has a very limited application (maybe only good for trailers), but verification would be good.

Cpcat,are you going to test and compare the Gefen TV scaler Pro to the Denon when it is avaliable ,which will proably be soon from what I have been reading.Looks like the same Realta chip but would be interesting how it is implimented compared to the Denon at the price points they are at.I may get either or, now that I have bit the bullet on a Yamy 3900 with the 2010 chip and just move my Edge upstairs to another TV.

How different/better 602 is comparing to Realta on 5308ci?

I can't confirm for certain without seeing both, but I suspect the actual implementation is very similar so performance should be also. The main difference would come with the various features (independent per-input output configuration, vga, xga output, etc) enabled on the 602ci that aren't enabled on the 5308/AVP.

The upcoming Denon A1 would most likely have similar performance as well.

I would love to, but unless I could get a loaner I'm not planning to purchase the Gefen. I'm pretty set right now.

Because of the dependence Realta has on software, the implementation could obviously be much different (better or worse). Hopefully, Gefen gets it right because Realta has alot to offer based on the 602ci.

White paper on Realta from Teranex:

http://www.teranex.com/sites/default...Whitepaper.pdf

1080p24 conversion of SD DVD is instantaneous with 480i input. There appears to be no difference in the speed at which cadence lock is acquired whether the VP is set to output 1080p24 or 1080p60 either. With progressive cadence detection, i.e., with 480p input, it is also very fast but necessarily depends on the speed at which the player first acquires the cadence, followed by the VP doing progressive cadence detection and 1080p24 conversion. Again, there appears to be no visible difference in speed of acquisition b/w 1080p24/1080p60 with 480p input, so Realta's "part" would seem to be done virtually instantaneously.

1080p60 input goes out 1080p60 even if the VP is set to output 1080p24. The VP does not process 1080p60. Practically, the only time this would come into play is if feeding the vp from another vp though.

Thanks. Since I'm considering another video processor for a different system, I may go for the Denon if I can successfully haggle a reasonably lower price from a local dealer.

As for the 5308CI, I got to work with one (a friend's, so I had very little time with it and didn't really get to assess quality) around the time it was released. I don't think it had the frame-rate conversion to 24fps like the 602CI has. Except for gamma control, the AVR did have all the picture adjustments that are customary for Denon's higher-end Reon/Realta equipped DVD players. Of course, things could have changed since then via upgrades.

Taking a look at the manual, it seems that the 5308CI's video processing is actually less sophisticated than I thought. A few of the settings (contrast, brightness, chroma, and hue) apparently don't apply to HDMI input signals. However, I suppose many people using the AVR for video processing just want the superb de-interlacing/scaling, and perhaps the DNR/EE adjustments.

In my opinion, from a features perspective, the 602CI is a much more capable video processor than the AVR-5308CI.

The AVP has gotten FW upgraded for 1080p24 output or at least according to the owner's thread it has:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...4#post14798084

Not sure about the 5308.

Yeah, the 5308CI apparently got that update as well. In the AVR and AVP's respective update logs, "1080p/24f scaling" is listed as an added feature.

You guys keep mentioning "Gennum VXP." Please do not do that. Gennum has different chip models. That Anthem uses the GF9350. The GF9450 is more current and is said to be a notable improvement. The Lumagen RadianceXD uses it but I have not seen that product in person.

You have a point. However, the main differences in the 9350/9450 are the additional NR capability of the 9450 AFAIK. The scaling/deinterlacing should be very similar or identical. Gennum (actually now Sigma) should have come up with a shorter designation if they wanted to distinguish their newer product. When referencing primarily scaling/deinterlacing I think it's acceptable to use them interchangeably.

P.S. The Lumagen Radiance XD thread title simply refers to it as "VXP". Would you like them to change that as well?