Are Pre/Pros + Amps really better than a good reciever? B&K / Onkyo impressions...

Since what seems like the beginning of time, the debate has raged on: Are Pre/Pros + Amps really worth the premium in price over a good AVR?

I intend to find out!

My love affair (and upgraditis) started with HT ~15 years ago when I bought my first 'surround sound' reciever. Man, was it sweet. Of course, it was only 4 channel, and the surround channels only had 35 watts each, but hey, I was in heaven! I'd sit in the living room and watch TOP Gun on my HIFI VCR in Dolby Surround, reveling in my 'Home Theater'.

Different speakers came and went, as did receivers.

Then came my introduction to B&K ~8 years ago. I happen to drop by a high end audio shop, and gave the (new at the time) Reference 20 and HT Amp a listen. I was blown away! This baby was loaded with 5.1 built in (GASP!) DTS/DD and promised all the upgradability I could throw at it.

And coming from HK's flagship reciever (AVR80), it was quite an upgrade. The again, going from a $1500 receiver to $4000 sperates, it better! Once again, the sound improvement was dramatic in both Stereo and Multi Channel.

Times change, as does technology. And I found myself wanting the features of newer technology. Things like Component Video Switching, distance/time delay on each speaker, more flexable bass management...

So last night, I was at Circuit City, and made one hellofa deal on a open box, Onkyo 803. At a MSRP ~$1000 how would it compare to my old, outdated (although sounding good) $4000 seperates system? Has technology advanced so much that the AVR is a better value?

Kinda...

Before I go any further, I'll detail my current setup.

My living room is ~20ft wide, 22ft long, with a 20ft ceiling.
My front speakers are Infinity Overture 3's
Center is an Infinity CC3
Sub is Infinity BU2 (12", I think it's 150watt... not that impressive)
Rear Stage is Infinity Overture 1's.

Sources include an old Denon DVD player running component video, and the newest DISH HDVR box (722) also running component video.

As 5 of my 6 speakers are powered, and efficent (92db), it doesn't take much power to make my system really sing. B&K Amp is rated at 125watts, the new Onkyo is rated at 105watts.

So did they sound different?

ABSOLUTELY YES!!!!

I got the Onkyo all hooked up, levels adjusted, tone controls set at flat. At first I compared just the Dolby Digital 5.1 of each unit.

Movies sounded completely different. In a word, BETTER. There appeared to be much more 'going on' in the surround channels, and the sounds spinning around the room appeared to be more clear.

Every time there was anything that 'flew' thru the room, you really felt it. You felt much more 'in the action'. Dialogue was also a bit more clear. When switching in the THX processing on Star Wars Episode I, it felt as though the musical score pulled forward, lush and detailed in its sound. It was actually, pretty cool. And somehow, the video looked better? It appeared to be 'smoother' while running thru the Onkyo.

Very impressed, I couldn't wait to get the stereo cranked up on some of my favorite tracks.

In the DVD player goes the Maroon 5. I love the track 'secret', as it starts out with guitar, a little piano, and the lead singer's high pitched falsetto. On the B&K setup, it was quite revealing. It was almost as though I could hear some digital manipulation of Adam's voice.

Here's where the Onkyo faultered.

In stereo (regardless of the surround mode/direct), the Onkyo could not hold a candle to the B&K setup. Bass was reduced, detail in the midrange and highs were also reduced. Where the B&K setup would produce a wide and deep soundstage before, the Onkyo just produced sound. Now, it didn't sound 'bad'. It just sounds... well... not as good as the B&K setup.

Even my wife made a comment: "how much did you pay for this?"



On the plus side, the surround modes for music are very fun, and I actually like some of them (I'm fond of the DTS NEO: Music as my favorite).

So tonight I'll be hooking up the B&K amp to the 803's preamp outs. We'll see how it does as just a processor. I hope I can have the best of both worlds.


Cliffs: Is the B&K setup 4x better than the Onkyo? NO! Does it sound better? Only in stereo. Is it worth the $3000 in my setup? Nope. Next up: B&K amp + Onkyo 803 as a processor. Audio Nirvana?

Keep us posted!

What's the price difference between the two?

I certainly hope so.

I'm not entirely sure I'm happy with a 'upgrade' that involves compromise.



That being said, I use my home theater for movies 95% of the time. Very rarely am I ever really listening to music... But since I have the amp, might as well give it a shot.

Yes.

I really don't do critical listening at all anymore. If music is playing thru the system, It's usually iTunes streaming from the airport (digitally connected).

I'll hook up the amp tonight, calibrate everything, and see how it all sounds together.



I guess the real question is; what makes the sound different in this new system. Is it the processor, or the amp?

***Update***

After going home last night, I gave the Onkyo another listen. And again, I came to the conclusion that the mids/highs are more 'forward' than that of the B&K.

For example, when playing a song, the artists vocals tend to overpower that of the band, making the music itself sound less detailed.

So, after confirming again the limitations of the Onkyo, I hooked up the B&K amp.

Now, I have to say there are some challenges in having two large black boxes in my entertainment center. Wifey, who is normally tolerent of my various hobbies, is really disliking it. I may need to purchase a different TV stand/entertainment center... but I digress...

Just as I had hoped/feared. After hooking up the B&K, the detailed, lush sound came back. In stereo, the system performed just as before. Music had the depth, imaging, and feeling that it had before.

What's more, initially I felt there's even a bit more detail with the Onkyo as the preamp instead of the Reference 20. The sounds of an artists fingers swealing on the guitar strings was more... pronounced.

Being happy with the Stereo performance, it was time for a little home theater...

Once again, I put in Star Wars Episode I.

Wow. Is all I have to say. Absolutely... WOW.

I have never noticed so much detail in my HT system. The lightsaber duel at the end of the movie, had me feeling I should be ducking the swings. I have never noticed how individual surround sound effects have LAYERS. That lazer that goes thru the room isn't just one sound. It's a few different sounds mixed together. And often, that sound changes after it's left the room.

I sat there, watching this crappy movie, completely immersed in the experience of the film.

So what did I learn from this experience? A few things...

Seperates do offer significant improvements in sound over a good, mid/high end AVR. Although at a much higher pricepoint.

Only so much technology and quality components can be squeezed into one box.

The great advantage of going the Seperates Route is being able to do what I did; bypassed the AVR's internal amps in favor of my amp. It's this flexability that makes the seperates route a smart move for anybody (or buying a AVR with preamp outs).

It looks like we both found similar results.

In my situation, the night/day difference came from external amplfication.

I think it's interesting in your situation you compared Top choices to seperates (instead of my mid-grade comparision).

I guess the only reason to go with a Reciever is cost & a 'simple' one box solution.

Although an inexpensive reciever with preamp outputs + good quality amp would/should be a real high end reciever killer.

My speakers are rated at 8ohms. And very easy to drive because they are 'powered' (built in amps). In fact, I have powered mains, powered sub, powered surround speakers. The only speaker that isn't powered in my setup is the center channel (it's only 2 drivers and a tweeter, also rated at 8ohms).

In addition, the difference in sound is at ANY volume level.

Again, I'm not saying the Onkyo sounded 'bad'. It sounded quite good. It's just that the seperate amp made a very significant difference. If I wasn't already accustomed to the B&K sound, I doubt very much I would have been able to tell the difference.

Of course, all of this is in direct competition to the idea that all good amps sound the same, and they do not 'color' the sound. Perhaps the B&K colors it? Maybe it's the Onkyo?

Excellent observation.

$1000 today definately buys more reciever today than it did 5 years ago.

And when you look at the features you get in a $1000 reciever, it's really a bargain.

I was able to pickup the Onkyo 803 for $500.00. There isn't a preamp/processor I'm aware of that can come close to the features this reciever has for the $$$$.

Wouldn't it be great if companies did ultimately follow the computer model, and released new/inexpensive gear every year that was significantly less expensive than the previous one?

If Onkyo can build a fantastic reciever for $1000, why can't they pluck out the internal amp, save $300, and deliver a $700 preamp/processor with all the bells and whistles?