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Which are the most dynamic speakers you have ever heard?

post #1 of 44
9/17/07 at 6:20am
Thread Starter 
Which are the most dynamic speakers you have ever heard?

Are horns still the only/best option for truely brute dynamics?

My personal vote goes to JBL EVEREST DD66000 (eg.
http://www.sonicflare.com/archives/j...st-dd66000.php) - the IFA demonstration was unbelievable...
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post #2 of 44
9/17/07 at 7:48am
Dynamic sounding or dynamic?
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post #3 of 44
9/17/07 at 9:42am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alimentall View Post

Dynamic sounding or dynamic?

I am not quite sure I get your point but "dynamic sounding" if you like

Some may argue that the speaker that "supports" max SPL output is also the most dynamic one. I beg to differ. For me it is all about being capable of "natural" micro- and macro-dynamics -> the transition between quiet and loud.

Many speaker can play "loud" (like cheap, high efficiency (horn) designs), but most of them also only sound right when the play loud. IMHO a truely dynamic speaker is the one that sounds excellent at "normal" SPLs (dialog sequences), while having almost limitless headroom for macro-dynamics (explosions, gun-shots,...).
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post #4 of 44
9/17/07 at 10:28am
Well, Klipschorns to me were certainly one of the most dynamic sounding speakers I've heard, but terms like "transparent" or "accurate" or "great soundstage/imaging" or "resolution" certainly didn't come to mind.

To me, most horns only seem dynamic, such as Avant-Gardes, but are a mess in most other ways. The most truly dynamic speakers I've heard are generally actively multi-amped systems. I haven't heard the Everests, but to me they appear to be simply designed to sell to wealthy Japanese who like traditional American audio.
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post #5 of 44
9/17/07 at 10:47am
I spent a lot of time and effort earlier this year looking for very accurate speakers that were very dynamic with a very fast transient attack that would retain these qualities at very high SPLs. The best, by far, i came upon were Genelec and Dynaudio. I now use a Genelec HT324A based system. They are active,remote tri-amped, so I agree with Alimentall on that point.
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post #6 of 44
9/17/07 at 12:05pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by coldmachine View Post

I spent a lot of time and effort earlier this year looking for very accurate speakers that were very dynamic with a very fast transient attack that would retain these qualities at very high SPLs. The best, by far, i came upon were Genelec and Dynaudio. I now use a Genelec HT324A based system. They are active,remote tri-amped, so I agree with Alimentall on that point.

coldmachine,

thank you for the reply. I guess we both are looking for the very same thing. Comparable dynamics to horn speakers, but "without their inherent flaws" - accuracy, sound-stage/imaging, resolution,... just like Alimentall mentioned.

I was looking into Genelecs (especially the HT324A/AC are very tempting).

Please allow me to ask you a few questions about them:

- Do you use them free-standing or flush-mounted?
- How would you describe their sonic signature?
- Have you compared them with some of the higher end JBL (Synthesis) setups (K2 9800SE, SK2-1000, Everests)?
- Which Dynaudio's did you like?

Thank you very much!
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post #7 of 44
9/17/07 at 1:04pm
1. Flush mounted.Bolted and sandbagged. Setup and install is a major job, adding to the cost (as does the specialised cabling).
2. I feel they dont have one. Thats why studios (audio and film) use them. Very accurate and clean. Imaging is perfect. They retain all thier detail and delicacy even at extreme SPLs. Due to the matching of the amps and speakers, PLIIx action on the rears is so smooth with flawless panning.
3. Took advice on that one from friends who work post in both audio and video. The response was universal.... Genelec or Dynaudio every time. JBL was rejected every time in favour of the other two. I'm sure they're really good, but thats not what you're asking. Theyre not the best.
4. M3A, the active version is roughly the same price as the Genelecs. Passive i think is half, but dont quote me on that.

It will also be worth having your room modelled for any needed treatments too.

Any further info just call.
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post #8 of 44
9/17/07 at 3:36pm
I would love to switch out to Genelec speakers as soon as my house re-finishing is done. Coldmachine, aound Charlotte there are some JBL reps but could not find Genelec dealers. I am really interested in these because my primary goal for my HT is just that HT and not really music, these speakers have spl I am looking for and the specs scream buy me.
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post #9 of 44
9/17/07 at 4:39pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ybsane View Post

I would love to switch out to Genelec speakers as soon as my house re-finishing is done. Coldmachine, aound Charlotte there are some JBL reps but could not find Genelec dealers. I am really interested in these because my primary goal for my HT is just that HT and not really music, these speakers have spl I am looking for and the specs scream buy me.

Contact Genelec and they'll sort you out. You wont see Genelecs in the normal dealerships. If you want to see them, the easiest place is recording studio suppliers or high end music dealers. You'll end up liasing with Genelec anyway so give them a call.

What is your sound budget?
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post #10 of 44
9/17/07 at 5:31pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLion View Post

K2 9800SE

I really want to hear these, but no one around my area seems to have any...

My first higher end speakers at 14 were JBLs (w/ Carver gear). I've heard the K2 9800SE measure great as well, if that floats your boat.
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post #11 of 44
9/17/07 at 5:37pm
The Dynaudio C1s are great sounding monitor speakers... I sat in the SimAudio/Dynaudio room listening to them for a little bit, very nice for the price and size. I want to get a pair to use as computer monitor speakers in my recording studio/office setup. I'm using Samson Resolv80a speakers right now, and those are excellent for the price as long as you have them in a close proximity (when you space them out too much the soundstage gets diffuse and grainy). They are good for what I use them for at least.

People like the dynamics of Wilson speakers as well (at least that seems to be the consensus among most people who have heard them).
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post #12 of 44
9/17/07 at 6:19pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by coldmachine View Post

Contact Genelec and they'll sort you out. You wont see Genelecs in the normal dealerships. If you want to see them, the easiest place is recording studio suppliers or high end music dealers. You'll end up liasing with Genelec anyway so give them a call.

What is your sound budget?

CM, what do Genelec's typical cost? I'm used to comparing NHT's to other high-end systems, but I've never tried comparing them with other fully active professional or theater systems. At the same time I think NHT wants too darned much money for these (I was hoping they'd be more like $30K for the system), they seem dirt cheap compared to a lot of other speakers in the same variety. Certainly much less than JBL, at least.
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post #13 of 44
9/18/07 at 12:50am
I've recently heard a well put together vintage Altec Lansing with I don't know what model sectoral horns double compressors, and well built diy A7 cabinets, using nos western electric tubes cum preamp/power supply, Studer cd player, Marantz amp, Daven attenuators and the external cross-overs were ugly ass.

Holy cow! I was not prepared for it's musicality. Wonderful natural instrument size and scale, nice tonal balance, such dynamic ease and authority. That pretty plastics $15,000 Avantgarde Unos hooked up beside the Altecs didn't come close to it's clean non fatigue sound, neither is my Vandersteens that I hear everyday and the kick drums on that Jim Keltner Improvisation was so real. All the CES trips that I've gone to listen to like the Ushers, Maxx2/VTL combo or Nola Exotica playing Harry Belafonte's Matilda did not give me goose bumps like when I heard Jheena Lodwick singing "Feelings" or "Matilda" with the horns. I don't never get that feeling on my Vandies. Why is that?

Anyway, I think all the Azura horn lovers, Oris 150 lovers, commissioned exhilaration horn lovers, Azzolina Gran Sfera Horn lovers, Moondog horn lovers, Edgar horn lovers would disagree that horns just sound dynamic and nothing else.

Oh check out this tractrix horn maker and tell me if the Avantgardes stand a chance. By the way, after hearing the Duo and now Uno, the Avantgardes are out of the running for my search for a good horn loaded speaker.
http://www.haniwaaudio.com/HaniwaIma...aWebBroch1.pdf

www.bd-design.nl/contents/en-us/d1_Showroom.html

http://www.azurahorn.com/azurahorn_gallery.html
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post #14 of 44
9/18/07 at 6:48am
i think to answer this question you need to define 'most dynamic' clearly.

are you referring to full frequency dyamics (20hz-20khz)?

or simply dynamics in the frequency range a horn might cover?

and then are you more referring to micro-dynamics or macro-dynamics?

when you get into low frequency dynamics many otherwise dynamic speakers are simply not capable.

the most dynamic tweeter i have heard is the Plasma tweeter on the Acapella speakers. it, of course, has no mass and therefore is simply faster than any other design.

in the mids and upper bass horns are most dynamic.

in the mid and deep bass...........powered, integrated subs are most dynamic as the amps are sized and idealized for their bass drivers.....and sealed enclosures are faster/ more dynamic than baffles (generally).

i think coherence is equally important to dynamics. using a horn for some frequencies, or a plasma.....and then using dynamic drivers that don't completely integrate.....is a challenge to execute (and rarely accomplished to my ears).

also; dynamics involves the level of effortlessness a speaker exihibits. when amps or drivers are strained or stressed dynamics are reduced and the musical message gets compromised.

overall, just regarding dynmaics, easily the most dynamic single speaker system over the full frequency range i have heard is the Von Schweikert VR-11. it is full frequency, has 4 1000 watt amplified 15" integral subs in sealed enclosures (2 per speaker) and 8 woofers (4 per speaker) and has a supreme sense of effortlessness. it moves lots of air very easily. it is 96db efficient but does need bi or tri amping to be optimized. it is also quite coherent.

dynamics is only one issue in speaker design; but a very important one.
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post #15 of 44
9/18/07 at 7:34am
It's funny Mike, I had to go to Dictionary.com to look up 'dynamic', as from my piano lessons, I remebered 'dynamic' as being the range of soft to loud, or in video terms, the 'contrast ratio'. Apparently my own definition was a bit off:

dy·nam·ic /daɪˈnæmɪk/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[dahy-nam-ik]
–adjective Also, dy·nam·i·cal. 1. pertaining to or characterized by energy or effective action; vigorously active or forceful; energetic: the dynamic president of the firm.

Based on Dictionary's definition though, would you not agree then that speaker dynamics are also determined by the amplifier driving them and how much headroom the system has?

Seems to me that if an amplifier is being driven close to clipping will make a speaker sound less dynamic than one that isn't?
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post #16 of 44
9/18/07 at 7:45am
The most dynamic speakers I never heard are the Wilson Watt-Puppies. I read a review by my favorite speaker and subwoofer reviewer, (Don Keele- worked for JBL among others). He has heard a huge number of speakers in his time. He owned B&W 801's, but he thought the Wilson Watt-Puppies were about the most dynamic speakers he had ever heard.

There must be a good reason that the Watt-Puppy is the best selling speaker over $10,000/pair.

All the Best
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post #17 of 44
9/18/07 at 7:51am
Amongst speakers with the same actual dynamic range, some will sound dynamic and others will simply track the music.

Curt, I don't think anyone is talking about actual dynamics, more of the perception of dynamics, unfortunately. Personally, I don't want to hear a speaker being "dynamic". "Dynamic sound" = colored, IMO.
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post #18 of 44
9/18/07 at 8:27am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alimentall View Post

CM, what do Genelec's typical cost? I'm used to comparing NHT's to other high-end systems, but I've never tried comparing them with other fully active professional or theater systems. At the same time I think NHT wants too darned much money for these (I was hoping they'd be more like $30K for the system), they seem dirt cheap compared to a lot of other speakers in the same variety. Certainly much less than JBL, at least.

There's no typical. There is quite a range. For a good size room and a 324 system, you need to be budgeting around $100K.
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post #19 of 44
9/18/07 at 8:28am
The most dynamic speakers I usually hear at concerts. Well what is the question anyway?
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post #20 of 44
9/18/07 at 8:58am
Hi


The more efficient speakers seem to be able to reproduce Dynamic shades and variations the best. I have found horn speakers to be amongst the best in this regard... Several speakers in the Acapella line-up are just extraordinary in term of dynamic shades, gradient reproduction, if you will with an uncanny ability to play loud in an effortless and non-fatiguing fashion... They are not your one-trick pony, SPL and dynamics-only speakers not they are high accuracy speakers... simply refined sounding...they are (mostly) extraordinary in price with the top-of-the-line Sphaedron close to $250K!! Easily one of the best speakers I have heard... Back to the business...

There are now several non-horn speakers with great dynamic reproduction... Wilson is one of them, I find the Von Shweikert in the same league as are several Dynaudio (to which I am quite partial)... The Acapella remains as the most "dynamic" speakers I have heard and easily amongst the best as well... I have Dynaudio in the multi-channel HT system and Magnepan in the separated 2-Ch

P.S. QueueC... The C-1 may not make the best computer speakers; they were not designed for nearfield listening... requires some distance for the drivers to blend... I would say at least 6 feet from the speakers... They have an interesting model for Multimedia the MC15 which I am thinking about acquiring decent price and good performance or you can get their AIR15... Much higher price, much, much higher price but an active design with superb sound... A design-for-the-nearfield -monitor... The Samson is not in the same league... IMHO
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post #21 of 44
9/18/07 at 10:57am
Thread Starter 
Thanks everybody for the great replies!

I guess I would have some Genelec's 1034b/bc aka HT234A/AC installed already if it wasn't for the "flush-mount optimization". Flush-mounting is not an option for me for various reasons. So I hesitate...

I am all set for using "pro (derived) equipment" though. It all comes down to Genelecs (1034/HT324) or JBLs (K2s, SK2-1000, I cannot quite afford 3 Everests...).

Problem remains - where to demo or better yet A/B them? I have heard the JBLs at various fairs. Also I am quite familiar with some Genelec studio installations but never actually heard one of the "bigger" setups (3-way main monitors like the 1034B).

I have exactly one JBL Synthesis dealer in my country (Austria), who has a fantastic SK2-1000 setup but I still have no idea how Genelecs would compare in the same room...

What am I after: High impact, yet very detailled and accurate sound (95% HT - 5% music) in a fairly large room - 28.5x19x12 feet. Forward, "right into your face", very revealing and effortless at high SPLs. But above all with "scary" dynamic impact.


Coldmachine,

which kind of subwoofer to you use? How are they crossed-over? Have you tested/heard your HT324 before they were flush-mounted? How is their free-standing performance?

If you have to think about what you don't like so much about your Genelecs - what you are not 100% satisfied with - what you have heard other speakers doing better - what would that be?

I adore "crystal clear" highs, a very revealing and detailled performance, not so much smooth sounding speakers like B&W but very forward (like eg. Wilson). At the same time high impact, "punch in the chest" kind of low-/mid bass performance. Do the HT324 fit the bill?

Thank you so much for your time!
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post #22 of 44
9/18/07 at 11:25am
Quote:
Originally Posted by coldmachine View Post

There's no typical. There is quite a range. For a good size room and a 324 system, you need to be budgeting around $100K.

Yikes. Well, it does make the NHT more palatable, except for the fact that there's no one even doing anything as expensive as the Genelec system out here, so it would come across as very expensive here.

The NHTs seem very similar to the 324s conceptually - 4 x 150W for the monitors, 500W each with dual 12" for the subs, 4-way digital crossover with steeper than normal slopes (not sure what the slope/frequencies are yet), all aluminum/magnesium drivers.

As I understand it, a 5.2 system would be $45K, a 7.7 pretty much full blown system would be under $75K, but you could use their smaller Xds as rears and that would drop the price back to about $45K again for a 7.5 system. That includes cabling and pre-EQing at the factory for your setup/room/speaker positioning. About $3K for the matching surround preamp. Keep in mind that the DEQX internally has as much as 8192 digital EQ/impulse response correction points per channel, so the correction is very fine and very precise. They can also run up to 300dB/octave crossovers, though I suspect they will be doing 48-120dB/octave to keep latency low.

The Lion, if you love detail, snap, power, accuracy, see if you can listen to even the basic 3-way Xd system as it gives you just a hint of what the bigger system will do (not available until November, they say). I don't think I've ever heard a more resolving speaker at any price and at pretty much any frequency.
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post #23 of 44
9/18/07 at 11:41am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alimentall View Post

there's no one even doing anything as expensive as the Genelec system out here,

If you look at the large active Dynaudio's, they're roughly the same price.

System price will depend on install as well. Its not a 2 minute job at all.
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post #24 of 44
9/18/07 at 12:01pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLion View Post


Coldmachine,

which kind of subwoofer to you use? How are they crossed-over? Have you tested/heard your HT324 before they were flush-mounted? How is their free-standing performance?

If you have to think about what you don't like so much about your Genelecs - what you are not 100% satisfied with - what you have heard other speakers doing better - what would that be?

I adore "crystal clear" highs, a very revealing and detailled performance, not so much smooth sounding speakers like B&W but very forward (like eg. Wilson). At the same time high impact, "punch in the chest" kind of low-/mid bass performance. Do the HT324 fit the bill?

Thank you so much for your time!

I will answer this fully by PM tomorrow as im tied up now. The quick version is
1) Tested free mounted..Excellent
2)Complaints..none, but they may be butt ugly when free standing.
3) Subs are Genelec. Crossover is no problem....will go into detail in PM
4) They are crystal clear across the board, bass is tight and detailed with no flabbiness at all. As for impact, they are capable of violating the audience when needed. A good action flick at reference or above can leave you punch drunk and buzzing.
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post #25 of 44
9/18/07 at 1:02pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by coldmachine View Post

If you look at the large active Dynaudio's, they're roughly the same price.

System price will depend on install as well. Its not a 2 minute job at all.

Maybe, but the NHTs are certainly easy to install by design, probably about 2 hours to hook up, actually. But if someone bought one of those from me, I'd throw in mowing the grass, walking the dog, babysitting the kids and cooking dinner with all my free time while it burns in a little.
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post #26 of 44
9/18/07 at 1:07pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alimentall View Post

Maybe, but the NHTs are certainly easy to install by design, probably about 2 hours to hook up, actually.

Genelecs can be stand mounted if you want
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post #27 of 44
9/18/07 at 3:13pm
For a AV setup ATC Concept 7 speaker system self powered all speakers book matched at the factory.

For Stereoplhile Wilson puppys for the money
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post #28 of 44
9/18/07 at 5:25pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbm007 View Post

For a AV setup ATC Concept 7 speaker system self powered all speakers book matched at the factory.

For Stereoplhile Wilson puppys for the money

Agree with the ATC recommendation. I have ATC Signature 100 active towers up front, C6 active centre for front and rear centre, and a pair of active 50s for rears. Paired with a couple of JL Fathom F113s. If you require a louder or more dynamic speaker system then I suggest you go ahead and order the hearing aids now.

The system is superb with music. Most of the "large" studio monitor types are exactly that...not necessarily nice with real-world installs. This is where I feel the ATC have succeeded...they sound great in an ht/media room as well as in the studio.
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post #29 of 44
9/30/07 at 9:29pm
Genelec speakers can be free standing, the main consideration is the distance from the speaker baffle to the front wall, once this distance approaches 800-900 mm, you start having 1/4 cancellations in the low 100Hz reigon eg 811mm = a 1/4 wave cancellation of 106Hz, this is why you must either soffit mount or place as close as possible to the front wall, the other alternative is to move the speakers well out from the wall, however if your speaker is capable of delivering as little as 50Hz, then that speaker would need to be at least 1760mm from the wall.

By placing the speaker near the wall, you will create boundary gain. The cool thing about boundary gain is you can EQ it out, you can't fix the cancellation if you have your baffle in the usual Hi-Fi location of about 1mtr from the wall.

The scary thing is this applies to ALL speakers, yet only the Pro's tell you!

Cheers

Steve
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post #30 of 44
10/5/07 at 3:32am
Thread Starter 
Thank you very much for your input, Steve.

When looking at the Genelec 1034B/BCs with depths of 383mm/412mm the minimum pratical distance from the front wall would be around 500mm-600mm.

With a distance of 600mm which crossover (60Hz-85Hz is the pratical range) should I choose to minimize cancellations?

Given a proper cross-over is there still much audible difference to be expected between free-standing (as close as possible from the front wall) and flush-mounted installation?

Thank you.


Quote:
Originally Posted by rpo83 View Post

Genelec speakers can be free standing, the main consideration is the distance from the speaker baffle to the front wall, once this distance approaches 800-900 mm, you start having 1/4 cancellations in the low 100Hz reigon eg 811mm = a 1/4 wave cancellation of 106Hz, this is why you must either soffit mount or place as close as possible to the front wall, the other alternative is to move the speakers well out from the wall, however if your speaker is capable of delivering as little as 50Hz, then that speaker would need to be at least 1760mm from the wall.

By placing the speaker near the wall, you will create boundary gain. The cool thing about boundary gain is you can EQ it out, you can't fix the cancellation if you have your baffle in the usual Hi-Fi location of about 1mtr from the wall.

The scary thing is this applies to ALL speakers, yet only the Pro's tell you!

Cheers

Steve
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