The "Official" Denon AVR-2808CI Owners Thread - Page 107

Hmmm ... the other option would have been to use an optical from the Sammy BDP to the 2808 as the lossy DD on BD's is encoded at a higher bitrate than on DVDs and some say is hard to distinguish from the lossless HD audio codecs.

still have my PS3 hooked up that way now, so I'll compare a couple of discs with hdmi vs. Optical. I needed a BR player with Netflix upstairs anyway..just not and expensive 3D versionhttp://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/images/icons/icon10.gif

First I would like to thank everyone on the forum for all the great information. I have been working at setting up Audyssey on my Denon AVR-2808 that I recently purchased and with the help of several people on the forum I was able to set up the Audyssey and it sounds great. I have been listening to DVD-Audio and Blu Ray concerts as well as a few DTS CD's and DD cable TV today and they all sound great. The Denon AVR-2808 is set to Audyssey and I am using an Oppo BDP-83. So I decide to listen to a couple of SACD's (Billy Joel-Stranger & Telarc-Jazz Sampler) So I put in the Jazz Sampler and it sounds like it is being played on an old Edison phonegraph (literally). Thinking that maybe the disc is bad I put in Billy Joel and the same thing happens. So I switch the EQ to manual and everything works fine (even if it doesn't sound as good as Audyssey). I go back to Audyssey and the same thing is happening. So I go into the Oppo setup menu and switch from DSD to PCM and the Audyssey works perfect. Is there a problem with Audyssey working with DSD? I bought the Denon 2808 because it supported DSD over HDMI and will be disapointed if it will not work with Audyssey. For reference the settings in the Oppo are HDMI Bitstream (I tried LCPM and nothing changed) and the SACD layer is set to multi-channel. The Denon is set to straight Audyssey (Not flat or front). With the Oppo set to DSD only manual or off works and sounds right. Am I doing something wrong? Thanks for the help.

It should work either w/ or w/o Audyssey, however, the Owner's manual (p. 48) does recommend not using it by playing in DIRECT mode. Perhaps SOM can chime in as he has an Oppo-83 and 2809.

There is something wrong but sorry, I just can't figure out what. I reviewed all pertinent sections of the 2808 and 2809 manuals and they are identical on DSD. I do not listen in direct modes ever. The DSD light should be lit on the Denon FPD and it should work just fine in std mode displaying Multi Ch In as illustrated on p 66 OM with Audyssey, which is how I listen.

BTW there is only a small (but it is distinct) improvement that I hear when sending DSD from the Oppo vs sending PCM, but other Oppo owners have not consistently confirmed this.

I see Jim Hef sorta unintentionally blew you off in your xpost on the Oppo thread. I suggest you pm him and also pm JohnAV as he is very very knowledgeable and has the Oppo. Let us know.

Thanks SOM. This only occurs with SACD. Everything else I have thrown at the receiver tonignt with Audyssey on has worked perfectly including analog 2 channel from a VCR, DPL 2 channel from cable, DD from cable over HDMI, DTS CD, DTS MA from Blu Ray and DVD-Audio 2 channel and Multi Channel and SACD 2 channel and Multi Channel over PCM all from the Oppo. The only things that do no work are SACD 2 channel and Multi Channel when set to DSD over HDMI in the Oppo. Both of these work when the Denon is set to manual EQ. Very strange. Thanks for trying to help.

So I thought I would further test the system to see if I could find the problem. This morning I took my Oppo BDP-80 from my other system and configured it for DSD for SACD and hooked in up in place of the 83 and the same thing is occuring. Works fine on Manual EQ but displays the same terrible sound when Audyssey is set. Any ideas? Thanks.

Well this is baffling. You seem to have eliminated the Oppo as a problem, as 2units are prompting the DSD light on the Denon FPD. As of yet I don't believe we we heard from another 988/2808 owner with an Oppo BRP but this points to the processor in the Denon. A call to to Denon CS couldn't hurt (but is unlikely to help, considering the level of expertise you have already accessed here). They will likely recommend a "microprocessor reset" and if there is no joy forthcoming anywhere else, I would go ahead with that to see if that eliminates this anomaly.

Keep in mind my statement on the relatively small difference in DSD vs PCM from Oppo on my system. I too was excited about the DSD capability in the Denon when I got my Oppo. But some folks like rdgrimes in the Oppo thread discounted the possibility that there could be any audible difference. Denon CS was affirmative yet vague with me as to how DSD direct could sound better than PCM from a fine unit like the Oppo. The whole DSD thing gets very complicated. And I do not have enough digital processing knowledge to know if the DSD case is all that different than the argument about "unpacking" the HD codecs in the player or the AVR. Again Denon recommends doing that in the AVR but most folks say it shouldn't make a bit of difference and I myself hear no difference bitstream vs PCM for those.

Thanks again. I will try the microprocessor reset. I assume I will then have to reset all of the set up information I previously entered and re-run Audyssey. I agree with your assessment of the difference between DSD and PCM. The PCM sounds excellent with the Audyssey. I am just trying to make sure I do not have something wrong with my Denon.

Yes, I agree that's the more important concern. I'm crossing my fingers.

I posted this question to Oppo Customer Service and this is what they came back with. I think I will just use the PCM for SACD and Audyssey.

Most receivers will not be able to do Audyssey and SACD DSD decoding at the same time. It is one or the other.

If you want to use Audyssey processing on your receiver, you will need to disable SACD DSD. Go into Setup then Audio Format Setup and change SACD to PCM.

Best Regards,

Customer Service
OPPO Digital, Inc.
2629B Terminal Blvd.
Mountain View, CA 94043
Service@oppodigital.com
Tel: 650-961-1118
Fax: 650-961-1119

IIRC some Marantz AVR's could not do HD codecs and Audyssey at the same time, so I suppose that is plausible. But, Denon Level One tech support is pretty spotty on accuracy. I would like this "inability" to be confirmed by another 2808/Oppo owner. The 2809 does this just fine and it has DynEQ on top of Audyssey.

BTW did you try the micro reset? I know, it's a hassle to rerun autosetup etc., but it's much easier after the first time. Write down your input settings and it should be less than 30 min total.

wait, let's be clear here. You CANNOT apply Audyssey to DSD directly. Digital processing cannot take place on a DSD stream... It only works if the DSD is converted to PCM (either internally in AVR or by the player).

There are basically three options:

1) If you play in a DIRECT mode (with DSD direct from the player) then the DSD is converted directly to analog for amplification, e.g. NO Audyssey.

2) If you play it in another mode, then DSD is converted to PCM internally in the AVR and then digital processing can be applied (e.g. Audyssey)

3) Alternately, the player can do the DSD>PCM decode and then the receiver will report Multich IN and treat it like any other multich PCM signal.

So, the veracity of their statement depends on how you look on it. The Denon definitely CAN apply Audyssey when "decoding" the DSD, but only if there is an intermediate PCM step between decoding and the amps.

All that being said, it sounds like something is F'd up with the DSD decoding for mrcarnut. It shouldn't sound as terrible as he is describing. So, if you are OK with Option 3 (letting the Oppo do the DSD>PCM decode) then you are all good, but it is still a bit troubling that it isn't working correctly...

Getting ready to do the reset. Is there any chance by doing the reset that I will induce any other problems or does it just reset everything to default? By the way you guys have been great with all your help.

Regarding Batpig's post

1) If you play in a DIRECT mode (with DSD direct from the player) then the DSD is converted directly to analog for amplification, e.g. NO Audyssey. - In Direct Mode the Audyssey does not work and apparently it should not.

2) If you play it in another mode, then DSD is converted to PCM internally in the AVR and then digital processing can be applied (e.g. Audyssey) - What other mode options do I have? It appears either Multi Channel or Direct Mode are the only ones available to me.

3) Alternately, the player can do the DSD>PCM decode and then the receiver will report Multich IN and treat it like any other multich PCM signal. - Setting the Oppo to PCM the Audyssey works great.

By the way your write ups are great. I have read every one of them and have given them to several of my friends who own or are considering buying Denon AVR's.

Agreed to by all.

Agreed to by all.

It just resets to factory defaults and wipes all user settings, I've never heard of reset causing problems. Hey, 1 more question-this wasn't a used, open box or refurb unit?

Well I just pulled out my Pioneer Elite DVD/SACD player and confirgured it for DSD output and the exact same thing happened.

Regarding the question about the unit. I purchased it from the original owner that used it as a pre-amp. You would not know the unit from new and it was not a refurb. or display unit when he bought it. Original everything including the box and un-opened zone 2 remote and mic. I bought this unit instead of the 3310 because of the SACD/DSD support. Now that I have heard the PCM with Audyssey for SACD I don't think it really matters. I may opt for the new 3311 when it comes out. Do you think a prior owner could have messed something up? Everything else performs as new.

Man you have some nice equipment laying around.

If a unit is not new, our standard recommendation is that before autosetup do a micro reset, as it only takes a few seconds when done at the outset and clears whatever the prior owner may have done.

with the DSD signal I believe your options are the "DIRECT" modes, or the "standard" mode which would then display "MULTI CH IN" (as per pg 37 of your manual and the "big chart" on pp 66-67).

Regardless of whether the DSD signal is pre-decoded by the player (and sent as PCM) or sent to the AVR 2808 for decoding (and converted to PCM internally), the "Standard" mode should say MULTI CH IN. The difference is that in (2) above you also get the "DSD" symbol to indicate that the receiver is doing the DSD decoding.

But with both (2) and (3), Audyssey should be applied and the resultant sound should be near-identical, as the only difference in the "audio chain" is where the PCM>DSD decode takes places. The fact that (2) is giving you terrible sound quality indicates some issue with the DSD decoding in the Denon -- a microprocessor reset is definitely the next step.

Standard and Direct are my two options and the DSD symbol does appear on the display. I will go ahead and do the reset and see if this corrects the problem. I also just sent an e-mail to Denon Customer Support to see if this is a known issue.

SOM,

My wife keeps asking me why I need 5 DVD players, receivers, turntables, speakers and such stored in boxes in our basement storage area and I keep telling her I may need them some day. I don't think she believes me since every time I make a change I buy something new and never sell anything. My first job out of high school was for a consumer electronics reseller and we sold Denon (late 70's and early 80's) and I have been into it ever since. I actually use a Denon POA-2400 amp to a Denon AVR as a pre-amp in one of my systems and a Denon DP-1800 turntable in another both of which I bought new in '81 or '82. Still have all the original boxes and manuals for this equipment too. Love this stuff.

Hello

I change my tv to a lg50pj350, I connect my dvd via component and the cable box via composite to the AVR2808 and the AVR via HDMI to the TV, I have a noise coming from the TV speakers, I check changing to component cables to the TV. Also connect my laptop via HDMI to TV and there not have a problem

Please help, I restart the processor of the receiver and still have the sound, the TV is off the simplink

Try replacing the HDMI cable from the AVR to the TV or simply connect a component cable from the AVR to the TV as you have no HDMI sources currently. What kind of noise are you hearing? Perhaps there's a problem with the HDMI input on your TV so try the other HDMI inputs as well.

I change the cable and still have a noise, when connect the laptop with HDMI to the TV not have the noise, only with the receiver the sound is like static.

I will change the cable to component

Thanks in advance

I am still struggling to find out why I am having distorted sounds from my speakers when I have my Oppo 83 set to DSD and the Audyssey turned on. See post #3183. I have tested this with my Oppo 83 and 80 as well as my Pioneer Elite player and all exibit the same problem. I took the Pioneer to my friends house today who also owns a 2808CI and it worked just fine. One thing I noticed when I came home was that while playing an SACD (DSD or PCM) the AL24 light is on. Is the AL24 processing suppose to be on for SACD over HDMI? Also I did the microproc. reset and nothing changed. I checked all my friends settings and they appear to be the same as mine.

I am sorry to hear that the reset did not fix it, as it appears there is something wrong with your 2808. I hope it is under 2 yr OEM warranty.

AL-24 is only applied to PCM. It is not lit for DSD on my 2809, and I presume it is not lit on your friend's 2808 either, unless you set the Oppo output to PCM.

SOM,

Thanks for the confirmation regarding AL24. Does it seem reasonable that this would be the only function that does not work properly? PCM sounds great and I did not hear any difference when playing DSD with Audyssey on my friends system. It is just so frustrating that this one combination (DSD & Audyssey) does not want to work. Would you think there might have been a firmware update to correct this?

I just reconfirmed that my 2808 does not apply AL24 when output from the Oppo is DSD. It just doesn't work with the Audyssey. It does apply AL24 in PCM mode and works with Audyssey. And sounds great.

One other thing. I have considered buying a 3310 or waiting for the 3311. I assume since the 3310 does not support DSD over HDMI and the 3311 might not either that I am not actually losing anything if I can't get the 2808 to work with the Audyssey as the 33XX won't do it either. They will need to have a PCM signal to process SACD. Am I correct in my assumption?

It is way beyond my ability to offer even an informed guess as to whether anything else is, or will be, affected by whatever is wrong with your unit in regards to this weird DSD/Audyssey thing. As I've said, if you have warranty, I'd send it in. If not, you could pose this to Denon tech support but they can be frustrating. There is no firmware update which affects this AFAIK, but jdsmoothie is our expert on that matter.

Of course I agree that you should use PCM from the Oppo w/ Audyssey applied in your 2808 for your SACD's, as it most certainly does sound great, as you know. The fact that if you do not have it in Direct mode, DSD is converted to PCM in the Denon, as that is the form of signal that the chip uses to apply Audyssey anyway, makes this all the more confounding.

If you do not listen loud (reference levels) all the time, you will love DynEQ/Vol, which is the big Audyssey upgrade that took place with the 2809/989 and newer models. If you can find one of those and don't need other features of the 3310/11, that would be a really good choice. And then you could tell me if you hear any difference at all when the Denon decodes DSD vs the Oppo! It is kinda tricky as there is about a 3 dB level-match issue and one needs decent speakers.

Unfortunately in the continuing push for more video processing, height speakers etc, some nice audiophile stuff gets traded off. Denon pushed the higher quality Audyssey MultEQXT from the 2808 and 2809 to up above those 3 series models, AFAIK. In any case the 3310/11 has DynEQ/Vol.

There are two 2808 firmware updates that were published, although AFAIK, neither involved any DSD related issues. You can read more about them here. Please PM as indicated if you decide you want to install them anyway.


Correct. Although I would wait for the 3311 over the 3310 for the following reasons:

(1) $300 lower MSRP, so it's out the gate price won't be much higher than the existing 3310 price
(2) The return of MultEQ XT ..... the 3310 only has MultEQ as do the lower level 2010 AVRs
(3) The networking issues discussed so much in the 3310 thread have been identified to a defective NIC which will be replaced in the 3311

Now that I'm thinking about it some more, I think he should go ahead and try the update, what's to lose?

Yea!

I'm in the market for a new head. I see that dakmart has the Denon AVR-2808CI for $530ish. Are the refurbs OK and also is there a better $500 option for a head?

What's a "head"? The AVR that came out the next year (2809) would be the better choice as it introduced the new Audyssey features Dyn EQ and Dyn VOL although will likely cost another $100 or so which is what Denon is charging the 3808 and higher model owners to be able to upgrade those new features (cannot upgrade the 2808).