The "Official" Denon AVR-2808CI Owners Thread - Page 115

For whatever reason, using the Audessy EQ has just not been working correctly, giving me insanely incorrect EQ settings. Basically the Audessy EQ looks like a rainbow shape, which when I check the frequencies with an SPL meter, this is definitely incorrect for my room. The bass is non exsistent, the mids are overly strong and the highs are set much to strong for my speakers, which are bright to begin with.

Am i doing something wrong with it possibly? All i need to do is setup the mic in the position and basically press go and let it take care of everything, correct?

Sorry for all these basic questions btw...I just got new speakers and haven't touched the settings on my reciever in a couple years, so it's relearning everything all over again.

Review the Audyssey Setup Guide in my sig for properly setting up a subwoofer. You'll want to set the mic in the primary listening position (the #1 position) on a tripod (not a bunch of pillows) with the mic height about seated ear height. Run AUTO SETUP for that one position. As long as the sub isn't set to either +/-12db you're good to go, otherwise adjust the sub volume/gain knob accordingly and rerun AUTO SETUP again. Once the setting is closer to 0db, but at least not equal to either +/-12db, then run the remaining 7 positions by moving the mic within a 2' radius around that #1 position (and yes, you want to run all 8 positions total). See if that works better for you.

I am running without a sub though...Is that the root of the problem i'm having? Based on the way the Audessy EQ looks, it seems to think I have a sub, and honestly, it would sound great with the way it sets up the eq if I had a sub.

I reran Audessy today before I read your message, although I only used 6 positions instead of 8 (before I was just doing three positions, one for each spot on the couch) I didn't do all 8 because of the few amount of listening positions that are possible in my apartment. I did the 6 locations pretty much exactly coresponding to locations 1,2,3,4,5 and 6 in your diagram. Although I don't have a correct mic arm, like you suggested, I did set my mic, facing the ceiling, on a vertical pole at ear listening height. No obstructions or sitting on a stool or pillows or anything. I unplugged the fridge and turned off all air conditioning and made sure I was out of the way as I could be when I ran the settings.

Below is the eq settings of my two front speakers after audessy:


Here is a view of room so you can see the shape and locations of stuff:


Here is a VERY simplified graphic I made in photoshop (i don't have a screen shot of hte real graph right now) of the frequency I'm seeing:


Regarding the frequency curve, I am using VERY non pro stuff to get this info (I am measuring just using the built in iPhone mic, using the iphone app "acoustics" inside of "audio tools" app created by Studio Six Digital. www.studiosixdigital.com/ ) I know it's definitely not a good setup to be using the mic in the iPhone, but I'm not looking for reference quality, just a broad idea of what's going on.

Having said that, when test using the mic and app, the results one the curve are showing more or less what I'm hearing. Audessy setting is very strong in the mids and highs and nearly non existent in the bass. Manual setting based on the sound samples I was taking was much more balanced with low bass, non overpowering mids and highs that rolled off a bit.

For what it's worth, here's a link to my speakers, in case for some really weird reason they are hard for Audessy to EQ:
http://www.bowers-wilkins.com/Speake...eries/CM8.html

Sorry for the long post, just trying to give as much info as possible to see if there are any red flags in my process or setup or anything. Thank you much for helping me with this, I appreciate it!

Oh yeh .. you definitely need a sub (or two) in that room as your front mains have no real bass extension. Also, note that when using the mic, you don't actually place it where people sit. For the #1 position you set it where you consider the main listening position (generally the center of the couch at the foot of the couch). Then for each position after that, simply place it within a 2' radius (circle) around that first position (and not necessarily where the other people sit on the couch). Also note that whenever you run AUTO SETUP, you always want to run at least 6-8 mic positions so Audyssey has more data. If not already done, you might also want to try angling your front mains towards the main listening position.

Yeah I understand that i'm not going to get great bass with these speakers, and the sampling position used was in the manner you mentioned almost exactly.

The thing i'm trying to figure out is why Audessy is EQing so incorrectly in my room. It's an issue of the software consistently given incorrect results as opposed to the acoustics of my room or the type of speakers I have.

To give you an idea... when I took samples with my EQ software after running Audessy, I had to redo it a handful of times because the bass was so non existent, that the software was giving me errors due to not hearing anything in the first couple octives.

Is Audessy required to have a sub woofer in order for it to calculate things correctly? Does it calculate it's settings under the assumption that I have one, regardless of if it finds a sub or not?

No and no.
Your measurements are not reliable, particularly in the bass region. But the rough graphs in the AVR look pretty normal.

Your speakers are pretty decent and should sound better, certainly not weaker in the bass, with Audyssey as compared to Audyssey off.

For manual EQ, use "Base curve copy" to compare to Audyssey and report back. You can also post a pic or illustration of your room showing MLP (which should be the apex of an equilateral triangle with FR/FL). Placing the speakers closer to a wall or corner will boost bass.

Thanks for your help Sounds...So I tried toeing in the speakers but it really didnt make much of a difference in the low end at all. Due to my room and the way I want it to look, I don't want to be moving seating positions around or anything. Really I'm trying to get good sound working with my current room setup. Soooo a new path I'm looking into is getting a separate amp and seeing if that helps. I'm not 100% sure if I understand if that will help. From reading about amps in various threads the common thought that I keep hearing is that a more powerful and separate amp will help make the low end feel punchier...is that correct? If that's the case, is that something I'll only notice if I'm playing at high levels? I live in NYC so loud listening isn't an option due to apt living. Also, I'm looking to upgrade the processor to the Marantz AV7005 (I would stick with denon but they don't make separates in the mid price point area). I want to upgrade to something that has the dynamic Audessy feature so that the curves will remain consisten when lm listening at low volumes. That's where the bass really disappears.

Thoughts on if either of these upgrades would help the situation?

^Hi. No, adding more power with an amp will not help, especially because you are not playing at loud levels. And toe-in (pointing the speakers to MLP) does not affect bass. It affects imaging and soundstage. Moving the speakers just a little can affect bass because of complex acoustic interactions in the room. The general rule is that closer to a wall or corner, the more bass. But that probably won't do it either, especially since you don't want to move things around. OK, no problem so let's throw some $ at it.

The Marantz is a beautiful unit but does not have the latest Audyssey XT32, so I would not recommend it AND there is simply no need for you to pay for separates. Amp power is not the issue here. You can get a LOT of AVR for what the 7005 alone would cost you.

You are absolutely right, Audyssey DynEQ will indeed help the bass when listening at lower levels. That is the reason I upgraded from a 2808 to a 2809. BTW, there is a used 2809 available on Agon now under $600, but you should also look at newer models. So I suggest you post on the xx12 thread for suggestions. Make sure you get a model with at least MultEQXT. Oh, there is a brand-new technology from Audyssey called LFC (see here) that is said to improve bass without disturbing neighbors but I'm not sure it's even available yet.

I do think you would also benefit from a sub as it will provide huge advantages. It allows you to place it where it sounds best in the room (smooth, punchy bass). It takes a huge load off your speakers and the AVR amps, in effect biamping and thus improving the mids and high end. Not only that, Audyssey MultEQXT devotes a lot of processing to improving bass, but you're missing out on most of it because you're not using the sub channel output.

A good sub will cost about $500+ from a direct internet co like Hsu. You will want to place it on something like a Subdude to prevent the sound from going through your floor. Check the sub forums for more specifics.

So I decided to get a small sub in the end, like you suggested. I was originally hesitant about it due to living in an apartment, which is why I was just trying to work with the speakers and EQ in the beginning. I'm quite happy with the choice in the end though! If I keep the volume and crossover set low it fills in the bottom end of the speakers a little bit while keeping quiet enough so i don't have to worry about annoying the neighbor.

I definitely wish I could go big and stronger, but living in an apartment this is a good compromise. Thanks for your suggestions along the way!

^Great! I'm not sure about this part:
"If I keep the volume and crossover set low..."
Let's review procedures. You should've attached the sub's LFE input to the Denon sub channel preout and then reran Autosetup. (See the Audyssey setup guide linked in jd's sig above if you're not familiar with this). If Autosetup finds your speakers are " reset them to small and set the xover to 80. If it assigns a xover less than 80 to your speakers you manually raise it to 80. Below that and you are not taking full advantage of the sub. If it assigns a xover less more than 80 leave it. Note that it is easy to adjust the sub's volume using your remote channel level function.

Regarding the crossover, I know I'm doing it incorrectly by manually setting the crossover to a lower number that Audessy set it to. This is intentional just so I don't have to worry about annoying the neighbors or roommates as often, since it's not receiving as much as the frequency range. For my needs in the apartment, I find this works better than just turning the volume knob on the subwoofer down, in terms of not annoying the neighbors. My system is still utilizing the sub for lower frequencies, it's just not utilizing it as often.

I know it's definitely not ideal, but I have to make compromises in the bass areas due to the apartment. I understand the settings and whatnot, and it was a conscious choice to set it this way, so don't worry Thanks again.

Oh, one more question SoundOfMind regarding the Audessy EQ settings we've been talking about earlier. Now that I have a sub attached, Audessy sets the crossover on my mains at 40hz....that is definitely wrong I assume? (I maually adjusted it tot 60hz, which I know is below the recommended 80hz, like i mentioned in my last post)

If you remember from our previous discussion before I had my sub, I kept feeling that Audessy was setting the bass in my mains way too low. Now that I can see it is setting the crossover at 40hz, it really seems like something is amiss and it thinks the speakers are producing much more bass than they are.

This definitely sounds off, right? Especially considering that my speakers are rated at -6db @ 43hz. Possibly I'm misunderstanding something, but that really seems off. Let me know what you think. For what it's worth, when I ran Audessy, I made everything as quiet as I could, even turning off air and unplugging the fridge

No, it doesn't seem off. From your description it seems to me that you are not doing anything incorrectly at all. Because of room gain, speakers sometimes produce better bass response than what is quoted by the OEM especially when placed close to walls and corners. It's not a problem; Audyssey measured your speakers' response in the room and the -3dB point is probably just below 40. As long as the speakers are set to small, it is strictly your preference as to 60 or 80Hz xover. BTW there is little under 80 in music but the LFE channel on film soundtracks often has content below that so you can feel explosions etc.

Do not turn the vol knob on the sub after you've run autosetup, as it has set everyting to exact reference levels. When you want to turn the sub down, it is very easy using the middle ch sel/enter button and surrounding arrows on your remote to select the sub channel and adjust it up or down.

Lastly, if your sub is not on carpet, you can use a "subdude" or make something similar (some yoga mat, etc) for under your sub.

All other sources will. I have it hooked up thru DVD and HDMI 2. Any ideas why?

^^
Only PCM 2.0 (optical/coax) or analog can play to Zone 2.

Hello, sorry for resurrecting an old thread but it seems some of you are able to use the 2808 and get 3D movies to play through it. I'm in the process of upgrading my TV to a 3D ready tv and I currently have a PS3. Because of this, I would like to try out 3D movies. Is it confirmed that I can use the 2808 via passthru to the TV to watch 3D movies from my PS3? If so, is there anything special I need to do? I really like this receiver and I would hate to upgrade but at the same time I want to set up a receiver for my computer upstairs. What is the most comparable receiver to the 2808 in Denon's new lineup? Thank you

^^
Although some 3D formats will pass through there is no guarantee as the 2808CI is only HDMI 1.3. Keep in mind that unlike with an HDMI 1.4 BDP, with the PS3, although you can play 3D video, you will be limited to only lossy DD/DTS audio (ie no HD audio). The most comparable in the XX12 lineup as far as audio quality would be the 2112CI, although it won't have as many legacy inputs as does the 2808CI. The 3312CI is the actual successor to the 2808CI, although is still limited as to it's legacy inputs.

jdsmoothie thanks for the response I just looked at my receiver and I actually have a 3808 not a 2808 and unfortunately the 3808 will not pass 3d content at all.

The successor to the 3808 is the 43XX series, so ideally if you can get a hold of the 4310 from 2 years ago, that would likely match your current input/feature requirements. However, as it too only uses the same Audyssey MultEQ XT as does the 2112CI, it really depends on your budget.

Although as noted, the PS3 cannot play HD audio with 3D videos, so if you don't plan on watching many 3D videos and connecting the PS3 directly to your TV via HDMI for 3D video watching only (w/optical from the PS3 to the 3808 for audio) isn't too inconvenient, might be worth considering over buying a new AVR.

That might not be a bad idea actually. Thank you

If I added a few of these to my 2808 for some surrounds is there any reason they would not work? I know they are 10 ohm and they originally were a part of a DAV-IS10 Sony System, which makes me wonder. As sony does, there may be some proprietary loophole to keep you from using them with another system. Since they are small, (dare I say cute) they have lots of wife appeal. Not ideal I know, bit if they work I could finally upgrade to 7.1 which would be rather swell.

^^
Nope .. no reason they should not work at all.

^The impedence will be fine, your AVR is rated for 6-16 Ohm. But dude, you can do better than that. It's really not that hard to find some small attractive surrounds that will complement your other speakers and the decor. Also, you may find that with decent surrounds a 5.1 system sounds better than 7.1 with tiny cheap speakers. If there's not more than 5' behind MLP I wouldn't expect much from rear surrounds. I see you listed your speakers in a prior post. I'd recommend the M-5X mini monitors mentioned in this article about your speakers. Butif they're not for you, look around a bit. Maybethese orbs? Good hunting.

Agreed on all points there SoundofMind, but I ran into these little Sony jobs at a big box "going out of buniness" sale with floor stands and I figure if I can offer them $50 or something for the pair it's a no-brainer.
The trouble is they were part of a larger system that is in pieces and not complete and they had no price on them. The salesguy said he's have to wait for the liquidator man to come in on Monday to find out if he could even sell them separately. So, for a little money I might be able to dabble in 7.1.
I like the orbs, but I just had to get a new furnace/ AC system and I my credit cards are angry at me!
I really love the AAD's as they are though so I am certainly not hurting in any way. They are really great.
Thanks guys.

Hello All,
Just recently started browsing this thread with regards to the 2808CI. It seems that I have suffered the same problem as above. I am currently using the 2808 as my HT Receiver in the Master Bedroom, which was my main theater up until a few months ago when I started getting my other system up to speed. When I went back to the 2808 after being off for a couple months I have no sound from any inputs and no test frequency through the setup menu through any of the speakers.

My questions is whether it is worth it to even take in to see what the problem is due to the age of the receiver. Sadly it was a great unit and it seems a shame to have to retire it after only 3 years of use. I suspect that it will end up either being a relay or one of the circuit boards. I have cracked the case and done a minor inspection and of the numerous fuses that I could see all still seemed to be operational.

If I deem that it is not worth the cost of repair...What would the comparable model be in today's Denon line-up? I think I had seen that the equivalent would now be in the 3XXX series?

The only downside to repair or replacement is that it is more than a little disappointing to put $1000 into a receiver that only lasts 3 years. I had expected more out of Denon due to it's reputation.

Thanks in advance,
Tyron

Could just be dust in the headphone jack. Try blowing compressed air into it or insert/remove a headphone plug and see if that resolves the issue.

I wouldn't have thought of that.... I am thinking there is a very small chance that this would be the issue, but I will give it a shot when I get home tonight. Something that I didn't mention in the first post, I have reset the processor as well to no avail. Will advise if the headphone jack trick works.

It's been a pretty common problem on the XX10 models. Worth a try.

underling, I completely agree that it sucks to have spent so much money on a quality receiver that only lasts a few years. I hope the headphone trick works for you, but if not, I just bought the 1712 as a replacement for my 2808CI. I haven't had a chance to install it yet, but the upgrade in Audyssey technology has me hoping that there will be an improvement or at least no degradation in quality.

^^
There should be no degradation in audio quality as the 1712 uses the same version of Audyssey MultEQ XT as does the 2808CI.