The "Official" Denon AVR-2808CI Owners Thread - Page 119

I see HiFiEngine.com has a 2807 listed. Might be close enough?

Do you understand that I want 2-channel playback...not multi-channel? Example: The Eagles Hotel California DVD-A is 24/192 in 2-ch and 24/96 in multi. Also, I don't really like re-mixed multi-channel music. Surrounds are usually over-emphasized.

The multi-channel that I get from the 2-channel input is produced by Dolby II or DTS Neo 6 in the AVR. If I wanted multichannel, I would select it in my OPPO BDP-83 player.

so...... a month later, you post a reply, and you don't even answer my question????

As batpig noted in his post a month ago to you, you likely set AMP ASSIGN to "2CH" which only works when the speakers are connected to the Surr Back speaker posts and NOT the FL/FR speaker posts in a standard 5.1 setup; otherwise it gives the results you are experiencing .... no audio on the FL/FR speakers in STEREO or DIRECT mode, rather only multi channel modes.

That doesn't make any sense to me. Who would want their output coming ONLY from the surround back channels? This AVR does have a Zone 2 setup that, when used, requires connection to the surround back posts. I do not have the Zone 2 amp turned on.

On page 28 of the user manual (as difficult as it is to use), item #2 under Audio Setup is "2ch Direct/Stereo." It refers to either using the "Basic" setting as in "Speaker Setup" or a "Custom" setting for 2-channel mode. This item continues on p. 29 to describe setting up the front speakers (FL and FR) and the subwoofer.

Page 57 of the "Amp Assign / Multi-Zone Connections and Operations" section of the manual states that "'Setting 3' is possible (sic) to switch the Amp Assign mode between the 5.1-channel mode and 2-channel mode without changing the speaker connections." The table on page 58 lists SURR. BACK/AMP ASSIGN connected to FR and FL using the 2ch Amp Assign mode. The diagram lists the Surround Mode as DIRECT/STEREO for 2ch operation. There is nothing to indicate that a connection should be made to the SURR. BACK speaker posts. Is the manual incorrect?

^^
Take a closer look at the diagram on p. 58 and you'll note that a 2nd set of front main speakers are being used, as is often the case when someone uses a dedicated set of front main speakers for music listening only. In your current configuration where you only have one set of front main speakers, you want AMP ASSIGN set to it's factory default setting of Zone 2 and that will resolve your issue.

bconde -- so I take it the answer is "YES" that you have amp assign set to 2CH?

again, just to be clear, the function of this amp assign mode is when you have a SECONDARY set of speakers dedicated to 2 channel audio, i.e., one complete 5.1 setup, and then a SEPARATE pair of speakers that you use for 2ch listening. This mode allows the receiver to automatically toggle between the primary multichannel setup (5.1) and the secondary pair of 2ch dedicated speakers.

as JD noted, examine the diagram more closely. Note that in multich mode the arrow points left to the 5.1 setup, and there is a second pair of L/R spekaers up front which are grayed out. When in Direct/Stereo mode, it switches to the setup on the right, with the 5.1 setup grayed out and the secondary L/R speaker pair active. You can use the dedicated 2CH DIRECT/STEREO menu to engage a separate bass management for 2ch mode (Custom), so, for example, you could have all speakers crossed over at 100Hz for multichannel mode (if your 5.1 setup is a smaller sub/sat setup) and then run the 2ch speakers at 60Hz for stereo music listening (if your secondary music speakers are larger).

the point of this amp assign setting is to allow you to toggle to your secondary speakers automatically when you engage a 2ch listening mode, i.e., "without changing the speaker connections". However, I assume that you do NOT have a secondary pair of speakers, thus, in this mode, when you engage Direct/Stereo mode, the receiver toggles to a nonexistant pair of speakers, and therefore you hear silence (except for the sub).

does that make more sense?

Batpig,

Sorry I missed your reply. When you don't quote the post you are replying to, sometimes it is difficult to follow a one sentence reply with a lot of signature text. I was poking around in the AVS forum yesterday at work when I discovered your reply. It was not possible for me to check the amp assign settings at that time. I just wanted to make sure you understood my question.

Please see my reply to jdsmoothie to understand my confusion. I never have understood why these Asian companies don't get a person who speaks English as a first language to proof-read and test their manuals. Denon is notorious for supplying confusing manuals for their products.

and that is the reason why I created my "Denon to English dictionary", and why I describe the function of this 2CH setting in the AMP ASSIGN section of my Setup Guide : http://batpigworld.com/setup.html#amp_assign

Yes, what you have replied does make sense. I did note what you have mentioned concerning the diagram. However, the confusing part is the FR and FL entries in the table on page 58. If, as stated, this is supposed to work "without changing the speaker connections," then R and L should have been used in the table. There is no mention a second set of speakers in the text. Even clearer would have been the use of FR(A)/FL(A) for the multi-channel speakers and FR(B)/FL(B) for the stereo speakers.

As far as the practical aspect of using a second set of speakers is concerned, I do not have the space in my media room to get the desired stereo and multi-channel imaging with this type of setup. I realize that some audiophiles feel that using a separate subwoofer is not ideal for music listening. However, these people are usually able to have a separate listening environment for music.

My preference has been to use a separate two channel hybrid (tube/solid state) stereo amplifier connected to my full-range front speakers for my music listening with smaller (restricted LF) speakers for my surround and center speakers in my multi-channel setup. Audyssey does a great job in configuring this setup.

I have been trying to compare the sound of using my OPPO player's analog stereo output thru a separate preamp/power amp to using the Denon to decode the digital output from the OPPO. I finally gave up and decided to send my BDP-83 off to OPPO for an SE upgrade. So...I guess I'll never know how the Denon compares.

Thank you guys for your kind assistance. I am sure what you told me will work. Nevertheless, I will let you know tomorrow.

Wish I would have known about "dictionary" sooner. Thanks again!

Denon manuals have never been accused of clarity

In subsequent years, they actually removed this Amp Assign setting (probably because it was confusing) and replaced it with a "Front Speaker Setup" menu that let's you explicitly assign "A" vs "B" speakers to multichannel and/or stereo listening.

Batpig,

Thanks to you and jdsmoothie for your help with this. It worked just as you described...just not very intuitive to set 7.1 when you want 2ch.

Hope I didn't waste my money with the OPPO upgrade. The 2808CI sounded pretty good last night with the CD layer of hybrid CD's and the DVD layer of DVD-A's. My guess is the ESS Sabre32 DAC (ES9016) is far superior to the DAC in the Denon.

Jdsmoothie, I noticed that you posted "** Think your AVR is defective? "Reset the Microprocessor" (see Owner's Manual)" in another forum. Does this apply to older Denon (say ten years) AVR's. Recently the side channel speaker outputs in another of my AVR's have quit working. I can get the model number if you would like.

Thanks again, guys.

^^
It's actually listed in my forum signature as you'll notice below this post. It applies to any brand of AVR made at any time .... as long as there is a "reset" procedure listed in the unit's Owner's manual. If you no longer have the manual, you may be able to download it from Denon's download website.

http://usa.denon.com/us/Downloads/Pa...ionManual.aspx

Thanks. I have the manual. I'll check it out.

The Sabre is a superior DAC but for most folks without treated rooms, Audyssey makes far more of a difference in improving overall SQ. So the usual recommendation is to send the signal digitally (for ex. via HDMI) from such a universal player, ignoring the player's DACs. So the Oppo 93 would be a good choice but probably not the 95. For Stereo, it's relatively easy to try different routes to see what you like best, doing level-matched A/B comparisons. I preferred stereo analog out from my Oppo BDP83SE into a standard RCA input (like "CD" on the AVR2809 and AVR4310. That applies a ADC, and allows me to use Audyssey and proper bass management. It sounded a little better than via HDMI and better than analog kept "pure" by routing into Ext In. IIRC Ext In disallows bass management and any DSP in the AVR including Audyssey. IMO MC analog is too much hassle and too complex especially when you can send SACD DSD via HDMI to be decoded in the AVR, which sounds great.

[quote=jdsmoothie;21818224]^^
It's actually listed in my forum signature as you'll notice below this post. It applies to any brand of AVR made at any time .... as long as there is a "reset" procedure listed in the unit's Owner's manual. If you no longer have the manual, you may be able to download it from Denon's download website.

Resetting the microprocessor did the trick for my AVR-2803.

Unfortunately, I had already replaced it with an Onkyo TX-NR609 for use in my family room, which we use for casual viewing, such as sports, etc. The Onkyo has more features (obviously due to the age of the 2803). However, I am not pleased with the 609's Dolby Digital decoding. I realize that this is not the place for a detailed discussion of this, but in comparison to the Denon 2803, it is much more heavy-handed in the surround channels. I have used the built-in Audyssey 2EQ setup as well as subsequently tweaking the levels and distances manually. I am getting way too much audio from the surround channels with, for example, the CBS and TBS telecasts of March Madness this weekend. The crowd noise as well as music, etc. on the commercials is way overdone. I am using the DirecTV feed. I have checked this programming in my media room using the Denon 2808 (which uses the superior Audyssey MultiEQ XT, and I get a much more pleasing & natural surround experience.

Unfortunately, my return window for the Onkyo has passed.

As I have explained in previous posts, I prefer listening to my music in 2-channel stereo. I find that most multichannel mixes of music over-use the surround channels. There are some early 3-channel recordings, 1950's RCA Living Stereo for example, that I do occasionally listen to in multichannel (mainly due to curiosity). My music playback system includes a hybrid (tube/solid-state) amplifier and a separate stereo preamplifier and phono-stage. My front R & L speakers are full range and do not benefit from using my twin subwoofers which Audyssey has set at the minimum -12 db.

I am having the SE upgrade performed on my OPPO BDP-83. I will be very disappointed if the 2808 sounds better thru HDMI than stereo playback thru my high-end system. As you have stated, I will have the option of switching from stereo to direct using the 2808 for playback to see if I prefer the Audyssey room correction and the subwoofer suplementation.

^
The subs are set to max trim of -12 simply because the subs are playing too loud. To properly set up your two subs you will need to turn them down and level-match them as per the Audyssey Setup Guide, then rerun autosetup. Before you do that, if you have some flexibility in placement, the fact that you have two subs offers an opportunity to use sub placement to smooth the in-room bass response. One of the lessons I've learned using 2 subs irt music is that unlike film, it's not LF extension or overall volume that's the point. Especially if you have no bass traps, listening or better yet measuring to obtain a smooth bass response with the subs may improve overall SQ because of the acoustic advantage derived from careful placement to counteract room modes. This applies regardless of the capability of the mains as those are placed in the room to optimize imaging and soundstage. Using a crossover of 80 or so and including the subs has other advantages such as the increased Audyssey filter power in sub channel and off loading work from the mains and the amp that drives the mains. We can talk more about sub placement if you're interested.

As to MC mixes, you're of course quite correct that some mixes are more "in the band" with instruments placed in surrounds, far off the usual front stage and/or are specifically designed to emphasize surround effects (Pink Floyd DSOTM). Some essentially add just room ambiance in the surrounds. Some discs (2L Divertimenti) even offer a choice of surround mixes, "stage" or "audience". In that case I often prefer audience mix for most classical music.

As to MC music, placement and type of surround speaker is different for film vs music. Music benefits from timbre-matched direct-firing speakers placed at close to ear level and at 110-120 degrees off centerline. One can adjust a MC mix to some extent by using the fader control, and I sometimes prefer to turn down the CC a bit.

With your dedicated analog system, using the upgraded dedicated stereo outs of the Oppo will no doubt offer a distinct advantage over the std Oppo DAC. The disadvantage is that system does not have the benefit of Audyssey, especially if your room is untreated.

For audiophile/very critical music listeners, I recommend the latest improvement in Audyssey, MultEQXT32 (as in the processor I have, the Denon AVR A100/4311). XT32 does a better job as it applies correction where it's most needed and leaves the rest alone. I also use the Audyssey Pro kit which brings a more accurate mic and more powerful processing to bear. That combo is is a more powerful, more sophisticated and more accurate DSP RC system.

Actually, I am very happy with my subs set as they are, and I did follow the Audyssey setup instructions which says to defeat the volume control and crossover controls if possible...If this is not possible then set Volume:"12 o'clock position"...Crossover frequency: Maximum/Highest Frequency"...Low pass filter: "Off"...Standby mode: "Off" (see page 23 of the manual). I cannot turn off the volume control of my identical subwoofers. However, they are set as described, except that standby mode cannot be turned off, either.

They work great for movies with dedicated LFE channels. For most music they stay off unless the source contains high level low frequencies, such as rock music. For most orchestral music, my front speakers are more than adequate.

SACD and especially DVD-A have or will die because the average Joe is not interested in the hi-res nature of the music. Multichannel music is dying just like 4-channel LP's. It sounds artificial. As you have said, we want the audience's perspective, not what it sounds like in the band. Performers wear earpieces to get the audience mix, not the stage mix.

It's great that you like the way the bass sounds, that's indeed what it's all about. You did those things you mentioned correctly. But 12 o'clock is a ballpark suggestion as a starting point and is often too loud. With older Audyssey-equipped processors such as yours, one must complete the setup instructions irt checking the sub ch trim- and adjusting the sub vol control down if trim is maxed and rerun Autosetup. So your subs are simply too loud. Newer processors walk you through that step, measuring the sub(s) live and displaying the vol on the screen with a goal of 75dB.

In addition, I'm unsure whether you followed the specific Guide section on how to best set up 2 subs. I alluded to further placement techniques above as well. When/if you decide to or need to run Autosetup again, you may find further bass improvements if you do.

Take heart. I am hopeful BluRay music discs will gain in popularity and renew interest in HiRes and HiResMC music as so many folks are installing some sort of 5.1 HT in place of a TV. In addition HiRes downloads are increasingly available.

I love the way my subs are set. In most cases I get plenty of LF from my front speakers.

I used Audyssey 2EQ to set my new Onkyo TX-NR609 which is set up in our family room, and I am not that pleased with the additional LF for normal TV programming. I don't use it for much more than that except when company comes.


There was no guide for setting up two subwoofers in the manual since there is only one subwoofer pre-out. I set them up using a y-connector to equal lenths of RCA to each sub. Those connections are split again for R & L for each sub per the sub manufacturer's instructions (wakes them up quicker). They are placed on each end of a love seat that is our main listening area.[/quote]


Concert Blu-rays are great. Try k.d. lang Live in London... Hi-Res downloads introduce more issues (jitter, etc.), especially if you are streaming from a computer which requires the use of an asynchronous USB DAC for high quality playback. All-in-one solutions tend to be very expensive. I prefer to buy a disc, put it in my player, and sit back and listen.[/quote]

Audyssey 2EQ isn't capable of EQ'ing a sub.


He's referring to the Audyssey Setup Guide (see link in my sig) which provides some guidance on how to best setup dual subs.

Live in London is indeed a superb production of a superb performance. It is my reference concert Bluray. I have not experimented much with streaming as yet so I just pop in the shiny discs. Enjoy.

(Also see comments in purple embedded above.)

[/quote]Audyssey 2EQ isn't capable of EQ'ing a sub.[/quote]

I have seen you posting in the Onkyo TX-NR609 thread, so I assume you are familiar with it. I'm using a single sub in my family room setup with the 609. I don't know if you call what I did EQ'ing. I just followed the directions in the manual for using the built in Audyssey 2EQ in Full Calibration mode.

The information provided seems to indicate that room corrections are being made. During the calibration, sweeping tones are sent to the sub channel, just as they are for the other speakers. Calculations are made following the sub tones and the distance from the speakers, including the sub, as well as the crossover frequencies for each channel are calculated.

My problem is with the amount and volume of the LF being sent to the sub. With my Denon 2803, all I did was set the size of the speakers and the distances manually. Then I used a sound pressure meter to balance the levels. The only difference from an input standpoint was the 2803 does not accept HDMI input, so the sound was input using an optical digital cable connected to my DirecTV DVR/Receiver.

The results I received from the manual setup of my Denon AVR-2803 were very pleasing.


[/quote]He's referring to the Audyssey Setup Guide (see link in my sig) which provides some guidance on how to best setup dual subs.[/quote]

Thanks. I am a relative newbie to this thread. You guys need to be more specific when referring to guides, etc.

I have NO PROBLEM with the setup of my dual subs with the AVR-2808CI.

"See jd's comments above. Note that if you have Dynamic EQ on, TV material requires Ref level offset of about 10 or bass will be boomy"

This is how I have mine set...per manual.

No, it's not EQ'ing, rather simply setting the distance/delay and trim settings. The 2808CI uses MultEQ XT which is capable of EQ'ing the sub.

That's a little confusing. Why is EQ part of the name (Audyssey 2EQ)? I thought the main difference in it and MultiEQ XT is five positions vs. three for 2EQ. On page 31 of the Onkyo TX-NR609 manual it explains the function of Audyssey 2EQ as follows: "Audyssey 2EQ automatically determines the number of speakers connected, their size for purposes of bass management, optimum crossover frequencies to the subwoofer (if present), and distances from the primary listening position...Audyssey 2EQ then removes the distortion caused by room acoutics by capturing room acoustical problems over the listening area in both frequency and time domain. The result is clear, well-balanced sound for everyone...'Audyssey 2EQ Full Calibration' uses the measurement from three positions to correct room response in addition to speaker setting" If that's not EQ'ing, then what is?

^^
Audyssey 2EQ does EQ the "speakers", it just doesn't EQ the sub. Refer to the link below and note the table at the bottom of the web page that shows the difference between the various versions of Audyssey.

http://www.audyssey.com/audio-technology/multeq

2EQ
Our basic resolution room correction solution that uses basic resolution filters for the satellites, but does not apply a filter to the subwoofers.

Thanks for the information. I do see where the chart explains this. However, that doesn't explain the fact that I was able to produce favorable results withe the Denon AVR 2803 using manual measurements only.

I have checked the Audyssey measurements with tape measure, speaker spec sheets, and sound pressure meter. They are very close to my manual measurements from only one position.

I have only to surmise one of two possible causes for the poor results, either the Dolby Digital decoder is faulty in the AVR (unlikely) or the EQ'ing of the satellite speakers is at fault. I guess I'll have to give turning off Audyssey and doing a manual setup from scratch.