The "Official" Denon AVR-2808CI Owners Thread - Page 20

Did I say it was Denon's fault?

4 sets of 3808's DACs barely cost more than 2808's DAC. The implementation is more important and that translates into sound quality. I can understand if you are not happy with the sound, but why complain about a couple bucks worth of parts? When I purchased my 988, I didn't expect identical (or better) parts than 3808.

At the end of the day, is the SQ worth it? Enough feature to keep you happy? For me personally, yes, but I didn't pay anywhere near msrp either so ymmv.

Denon implements the PCM-1791A in a differentially-driven configuration with two DACs per channel. At $2.85, sourced from TI's price sheet assuming purchase quantities of 100 units, that puts the parts at $45.60. The DSD-1608 is a single-chip solution, described by the manufacturer as a low-cost option, and runs $8.00. I'm not trying to be argumentative, but I think you'd have to agree that at pre-markup wholesale pricing, $37.60 is a significant difference in overhead.

Even without stacking the PCM-1791A, it bests the SNR of the DSD-1608 by 5dB, and with their implementation, Denon could be boosting that another 6dB by running two PCM-1791As per channel. 11dB is a significant difference.

It's true that implementation is a huge portion of how well a DAC ultimately performs in a given application. In this case, not only is the 3808ci's DAC superior, but its implementation is superior, making it all the better.

It's my fault for not being a more cautious buyer. Good for Denon. Their pricing structure is genius because I'm sure a lot of people buy the 2808ci, as I did, thinking "well heck, I'm getting most of the performance and saving a buck," when this model is most likely right in the meaty portion of their bell-curve for returns. Slap the same pretty face on a gutted piece of gear and sell it just cheap enough to get us all on board for the ride. If I ran D&M, I'd make the plucky little R&Der who came up with this scam a Six Sigma Blackbelt and give him or her a corner office.

Whatever the case, they have my money now. A lot less money than they got out of me for my DVD-5910, but at least that piece of equipment sounds good enough to justify the price tag. Fortunately lossless audio in and of itself is so much better that I'm not going to worry about differences in replay quality at that level of resolution.

Denon can do whatever they like. It's our responsibility to make the right purchase for our needs, and I'm just sharing my observations and feelings so that the next hapless consumer doesn't regret their decision like I now do. Nothing wrong with keeping the brethren informed.

I could not agree more. While a decent receiver overall, Denon has made many compromises in the unit to save costs. While I could care less about the number or quality of the D/A converters you mention, I doubt many others care about the absense of a video downconverter or the use of volitile memory that bother me so much. And I am sure that there are many compromises that bother neither you or me, but will certainly tick off someone else. While you could argue that compromises have to be made in a A/V receiver to keep the price reasonable, the Sony ES receivers at the same price points do not have these same compromises (but they may have some other compromises, but I don't own one so I can't comment on it). I too was lazy. I looked at the Denon product line and picked one that had all the features that I thought I needed. I didn't move up the next model not because of the money (a couple of hundred bucks is pretty insignificant when compared to whole cost of a HT system). It was because I didn't need the networking features or additional HDMI ports and dont want to add complexity to a unit unless I need it. But I assumed that the parts used in my unit would be of high quality, just missing some features I did not need. I put trust in the Denon brand, and used that as an excue not to do my homework, and now must live with the consequences. When I was younger and had more time on my hands, I never would have made such a mistake. I would have spent a a couple of hours at my local dealer reading the manual. Back then, you didn't have to worry about compromises in a Denon. I don't have that kind of time on my hands today. I don't even have time to post. This is my fourth post in about three years. I only do it to ensure that before others buy the unit, they are more informed than I was.

A couple of questions here, I'd appreciate any input.

1. Is anyone currently using this AVR with the Def Tech Mythos ST's? I'm looking to upgrade to those speakers (I have the Klipsh F-1 system now) in the next 3-4 months and was wondering if anyone has some insight on how those speakers perform with this component.

2. Also, can anyone direct me towards a website (or provide a link) of what kind of cable I will need to plug my MP3 player into my receiver to listen to music? I did a search and found reference to a Y cable or something along that lines, but I'm a total noob when it comes to cables and have no clue what that means.

Thanks a lot!

really? 3808 uses "16" PCM-1791A DACs? Where is your source on this?

Without worrying about parts, how does the AVR perform for you?

Hi Guys. I've owned my 2808 for a month now. Has anyone else experienced strange "artifacts" when upscaling component to hdmi. The artifacts are in the form of little lines of black dots. It happens with both of my component sources. The wii and and htpc. Anyone out there got any ideas? If so, is it a setting issue or do you think I should return it while I still can?

Edit ** I shouldn't say that both sources are upscaled. The wii most definately is but, the HTPC is set to 1920 x 1080. They both however are using component video.

Denon's own spec-sheet. If you look at the "Detailed Specifications" link under the product's profile on the Denon website, you'll see that in the field where the DAC is listed it states "PCM-1791A - 2 x 8 channels". I realize that description is somewhat cursory, but you can certainly pose the question to "DenonJeff," who is currently posting in a sticky thread for this forum.

As a side-note, if you're wondering where your $7,000 MSRP is going, the AVP-A1HDCI uses DACs in a "double" differential configuration, meaning 4 per channel. Now that's some serious noise reduction.

I was venting a bit in my previous post. There's no doubt this is a great receiver, and an exceptional receiver at the price I bought it. I was just frustrated with the marketing placement of the product so close to its siblings, and, frankly, the misdirection and blatant lies that were fed to me by the authorized Denon dealer I purchased my unit from.

They told me unequivocally that this model's signal path and processing would be essentially identical to that of the 3808ci, and that the only features I would be missing would be PC-connectivity and a more robust amplifier section. I thought, "well, suckers, I'll take the cheaper unit, hook it to my exceptional Sherbourn amplifier and laugh all the way home." Well, the joke's on me and they'll only take it back for store credit now, but their price on the 3808ci is silly compared to what it can be had for elsewhere so I can either stay with the 2808ci, or pay significantly higher than the going street price to upgrade.

I'm in the same situation as portbarton. The issue here is that I would gladly have paid a few hundred dollars more for the 3808ci if I had been privy to the compromises this unit made in certain components. I'm not contending that Denon doesn't make some wonderful products because they clearly do. My issue is that I, too, had a level of trust in this company that lulled me into believing the claims made by its representatives, and I do consider an "authorized" dealer a representative of the company.

Until the full specifications were published, which happened very recently, I do believe that the perception given by Denon's "abbreviated" description was that this unit was just like the 3808ci, but with a slightly truncated feature list. I think that the obvious differences, such as HDMI inputs, Denon Link III, networking, PC control, more powerful amplifiers with a more robust power supply, were all justifiable in the pricing structure, but with inferior signal processing, I frankly feel like I've been taken for a ride. This is a 2308ci with pre-amp outputs.

PCM-1791A is a stereo DAC. Does "PCM-1791A - 2 x 8 channels" equal 16 PCM-1791A DACs?

5808ci shows "PCM-1796 - 2 x 8 Channels" as well.

2808ci's page also shows PCM-1791 as well as DSD 1608. What exactly is this configuration?

Terribly sorry, the AVR-5308ci is not double differential, it is the AVP-A1HDCI that gets that distinction. The 5308ci is differential, but it has 12 output channels and, thus, 24 DACs.

I do realize that the PCM-1791a is a stereo DAC, however all of the information I have been given indicates that two chips are used for each channel, not two channels of one chip. If I'm wrong on this point I'll gladly retract my statement.

The 2808ci's page is partially at the heart of my complaint because in the left hand column it lists the PCM-1791a as the DAC and the DSD-1608 is identified in the right column. This is because the left column is the "possible" features list for the whole line of receivers. For example, in the left column you'll find "Digital Input - DENON Link 3rd (SACD Ready)" and in the right column is just "-", indicating that it is an available feature that this model lacks. Further, in the left column we find "24-bit/192-kHz DACs - Burr-Brown PCM-1791," but in the right colum is listed "DSD-1608," meaning that the PCM-1791a is available, but not used on this model. Frankly I think this is misleading and an extremely underhanded marketing tactic that leads people just like you to believe that somehow the superior DAC is incorporated, when in fact it is not.

HI

I´m newbye and own the 2808, I look the comparison chart in the UK website before I make the purchase in the page said the 2808 has twin drive an the 3808 has quad drive and the AL 24 for the 2808 is only F/L. The US page said the 2808 not has DDSC HD, I upgrade from ARV 682 I decide because I don´t need the connectivity and can sacrifice the quad drive and al 24 for al zones, for me the receiver sound much better than a Sony with the same price. I agree with skablaw, it´s marketing and we are here to learn and avoid some dealers which try to sell what they want

There is a thread on how the 3808 doesn't upscale to 1080P properly. You should be able to find it easily as it was just started in the last day or two. The cnet reviewer that was quoted recommended not using the unit to upscale. If it effects the 3808, it likely effects the 2808 as well. Also, the 2808 won't upscale certain composite sources, forcing me to run a composite cable to my TV as well as HDMI cable. Lots of video issues with this unit. I think the unit is better off being used as an audio receiver instead of an a/v receiver. I have no issues with the audio performance, although a couple of others have complained about this as well.

hey portbarton, could you give me a rundown of what the video issues are with the 2808CI. i have one, but dont have it set up yet as my HT is still under construction. i may consider switching to another AVR.

my set up will be pretty simple. sony black pearl, HD DVD, BluRay, & Comcast Cable box. i will be passing through, via HDMI, the 2 DVD players and could run the cable box direct via HDMI to the PJ, with audio to the Denon via optical.

now that i just typed all that it sounds like i am using the unit more for audio then video .

maybe i am just having that buyers remorse.

later.

I have the AVR -988 and when trying to set it up, even though it detects the sub during tee 8 measurements, it sets its volume to 0.00DB so I cannot hear it unless I crank up the DB level of the sub woofer. Is that normal ? What value do you suggest I set my sub in the manual setup on avr-988. What method of should i pick in sub setup: LFE or LFE+Main ?

Oh, one more thing, is it better to set all speakers to small for the 7.1 home theater setup or leave the defaults , which is 2 large front speakers. Does it make a difference ? Is there a better way for movies or music , or one setup will do for both ?

Thanks for your help,
Nikonowski

Since the setup has selected LARGE speakers it must have decided that the mains can handle the base best on their own and the sub will be dedicated to the signal on the LFE channel.

But ...

Did you hear any sound from the subwoofer during the setup process?

Did you follow the directions near the end of page 23 in the manual? These tell you how to adjust your sub *before* running the setup process, namely, on the sub itself --

1. Volume knob to center
2. crossover knob to maximum
3. lowpass filter switch OFF
4. Standby mode switch OFF

I have my amp assigned to my DVD (PS3) for zone 2. however I cannot get
zone 2 to play music cd's along with the main (5.1) zone at the same time.
Zone 2 will only play by itself thru the direct mode or pure direct mode.
Also on my receiver display screen , when it is playing in the zone 2--it shows sleakers FL and FR it does not show my zone 2 satellite speakers. The zone 2 speakers (actually outside on my deck) do not show on the receiver display screen and I have those hooked up to the rear zone 2/surround spker. terminals. Does anyone have any ideas what I may have done wrong.---I spent countless hours trying to figure this out.

paulsen,

Thanks for your reply! I guess I did miss these recommendations about pre-setup sub settings ...sorry

I did not hear sub during the auto setup, only after I bumped it's channel volume to 12DB in the manual setup. I guess I would have to rerun the auto setup one more time

What's the difference between : " mains can handle the base best on their own and the sub will be dedicated to the signal on the LFE channel." I just don't know enough about this so please explain in more details. My front speakers are decent Paradigm speakers.

Much appreciated,
Nikonowski

You get bass (low frequencey) sound in two ways:

1. In the regular channels and
2. In the LFE (the ".1" channel). Typically the LFE channel is for sound "effects" (explosions, thunder, etc.) -- LFE = Low Frequency Effects.

Not all main speakers can handle all the bass that is in the channels the speakers are assigned to. Low frequencies that the speakers can't handle are redirected from the main channels to the subwoofer (via the LFE connection) at the "crossover" frequency. Speakers that need crossover to the subwoofer are referred to as small. Those that don't are referred to as large. That's just arbitrary terminology and has nothing to do with the actual size of the speakers (although, on the average, speakers that can handle deep bass are probably physically larger than those that can't).

Now this is all relative. The same main speakers may be considered large or small depending on the relative capabilities of your subwoofer.

The setup process tries to sort all that out and assign crossover points as appropriate. For example the center speaker in my system has more bass capability that the left and right so it has a lower crossover point.

The LFE signal (the ".1") will go to the subwoofer independent of any crossover -- assuming you have it wired that way.

Which reminds me to ask -- how *are* your speakers wired? My subwoofer was designed to take its input directly from left, right, and LFE outputs of the receiver. It would do the crossover based on how you set a dial on the back and from there feed the left and right speakers. It was really intrended to be used in a stereo configuration.

When I got the 2808 I rewired it to let the 2808 make all the decisions. The subwoofer now gets its input *only* from the LFE channel which in my case includes the original LFE signal plus whatever the 2808 determined to crossover from the rest of the speakers in the system -- front left,right, center and rear left and right.

rcp

Hey guys, loving my 2808 for the most part but I am having one very annoying issue with the screen blanking out occasionally.

It happens once or twice during a typical movie, so every hour or so. The audio will be fine but the image will go black for two seconds. This is observed from my 6416 PVR, HDMI into the 2808 and HDMI out to my XBR3. Almost like a hand shake issue.

I've tried turning off the scaler & lip sync options with no effect.
Next I'll try outputting the PVR through component and see if that changes anything.
Just seeing if anybody else is experiencing brief video interruptions as well.

Cheers,
Ethan

I would be happy to.

1) There is no video downconversion. That means component and HMDI inputs cannot be output through analog (composite or Svideo) outputs. I have a DVD recorder, a DVR and an Archos that only have analog inputs. Basically, none of these units can be hookup to this receiver. I have no interest in copying DVD's etc. I want my DVR to time shift (cant do it because my cable box outputs digital OR analog only). I want my DVD recorder to make DVD's from my home movies from my apple TV (can't do it because apple TV only has digital outputs) and I want to use my archos to monitor my apple tv when I am using it to listen to music (can't do that either so I am now forced to have my TV on when I want to listen to music)

2) The upconverter will not upconvert low resolution analog sources. An example of a low res source is the GUI of my Archos (it has a remote control, but I cannot use it because I cannot see the picture on My TV.) Another example is the title screen of my DVD player. When I turn on my DVD player, the title screen will not be seen on my TV. I will only see an image once the DVD starts playing.

3) The upconverter has quality issues. It is not very good. Lots of artifacts. Do a little a research and you will see posts on the subject.

So, I have rewired my whole system with direct outputs to my TV. I am not using the receiver for any Video switching. Fortunately, I have a good TV with several HMDI and component inputs. Not enough, but I have a combination HMDI/component switcher and downconverter on order.

So, it appears a little strange that a $1,000 receiver has these issues. But not strange at all for a $500 receiver. Check an online auction site for the Denon 888 receiver. Almost EXACTLY the same unit. To justify the difference, they gave the 2808 a different remote. They sell the 888 through Walmart. The 2808 is sold through A/V dealers. I do not believe that this unit is in anyway comparable to $1,000 units from Onkyo, Yamaha and Sony. Unfortunately, I do not own one of those units so I cannot confirm my opinion.

This is a common path that companies take when they want to maximize their bottom line. It works very well when the company has a good reputation, and can sell stuff on the name alone. JBL went down the same path many years ago. It is commonly referred to in the business as prostituting your name.

So, I am more than a little upset over this. I am REALLY, REALLY mad. More mad at myself for falling for it. I don't blame Denon. Their job is to maximize profits. I have just been so caught up with work and family that I bought this unit without doing any research.

The worse part is that I bought this unit in the US and I live in the Philippines. I would love to move this item on an auction site to get rid of it and buy something better. Difficult to get any reasonable price under the circumstances.

I would be happy to.

1) There is no video downconversion. That means component and HMDI inputs cannot be output through analog (composite or Svideo) outputs. I have a DVD recorder, a DVR and an Archos that only have analog inputs. Basically, none of these units can be hookup to this receiver. I have no interest in copying DVD's etc. I want my DVR to time shift (cant do it because my cable box outputs digital OR analog only). I want my DVD recorder to make DVD's from my home movies from my apple TV (can't do it because apple TV only has digital outputs) and I want to use my archos to monitor my apple tv when I am using it to listen to music (can't do that either so I am now forced to have my TV on when I want to listen to music)

2) The upconverter will not upconvert low resolution analog sources. An example of a low res source is the GUI of my Archos (it has a remote control, but I cannot use it because I cannot see the picture on My TV.) Another example is the title screen of my DVD player. When I turn on my DVD player, the title screen will not be seen on my TV. I will only see an image once the DVD starts playing.

3) The upconverter has quality issues. It is not very good. Lots of artifacts. Do a little a research and you will see posts on the subject.

So, I have rewired my whole system with direct outputs to my TV. I am not using the receiver for any Video switching. Fortunately, I have a good TV with several HMDI and component inputs. Not enough, but I have a combination HMDI/component switcher and downconverter on order.

These are very good points and I think you have done me a favour, so thanks. I was going to get the 2808 because I didn't need the extra HDMI connections of the 3808 or care much about internet connection or whizzy menu system. But I will now be getting the 3808 for the points you've made as well as the issue with the storage of the memory settings on the 2808.

I won't be using the analogue upscaling feature of the 3808, but it would be good if Denon could issue a firmware update to improve this.

The other minor issue is with the 1:1 mapping of a 1080p HDMI signal, it appears that two rows are flipped on the very edge of the image. Probably not that noticable, but a shame nonetheless.

I'm glad I read this last page. Between short-changing people on the DACs (at least be forward about what you are putting in the thing), and the issue with the video cutting out for a few people and having to switch around their cabling to connect directly?! That's absurd for a AV receiver of this brand and quality. I want to use it for HD audio formats, and if the video is cutting out - that makes this thing a boat anchor. HDMI passthrough with no interruptions is a must.

I have a $500 Yamaha RX-V661 and has NO problems passing through HDMI signals. I think if I'm going to upgrade I'll probably go with the Onkyo 805.

I have a Denon 2808 for months now and have never had any signal/video issues. It's hooked up to my 73" TV via HDMI and i'm using both inputs and using an Oppo 3.1 on it to increase my HDMI inputs.

much thanks for the feedback.

let me ask you this, will it work for me? i will be using it for HDMI switching and sound basically. 2 DVD players (HD and BR) into the AVR and out to the PJ. i will run my cable box directly to the PJ via HDMI.

so, no downcoverting or upconverting is needed for my setup at this time? i think i should be good with the 2808CI. if needed i could jump to the 3808CI with the good deals going around on it right now.

i have this unit so i would have to resale it as i am pass the 30 day return. it sits in its original box in my office awaiting construction completion.

later.

I have my PS3, HD-A2, HD-TiVo & my PS2 all input into my 2808ci. With the exception of my PS2, all are input via HDMI - the PS2 is component. I have no issues with sound or video switching. I love it. I also have a PS3 & HD-A2 hooked up to my Denon AVR-987 via audio and video and absolutely no problems with audio or video switching. In that scenario, my HDTiVo is directly input via HDMI to my TV. I opted not to buy another Oppo HDMI switch to save $ and since Comcast/Cable sends no 'better' audio than Dolby Digital which my TV can output.

I realize that this is probably not the right place to ask this question but this my first time on any forum and my first time buying a receiver and I'm just looking for some guidance. If there is better place to post this then please let me know.

I am looking at the Yamaha RX-V1800, the Denon AVR-2808CI and the Marantz SR-5002. I could also consider something from Pioneer or something lower down on the Denon or Yamaha lines.

I don't want to spend more than $1300 on a receiver (preferably less) and I want to be able to run everything i have into the receiver and then one HDMI cable out to the TV (Toshiba 50HP66 720p). Right now I'm actually running S-video from my Direct TV box so I need to make sure that that can be sent back out through the HDMI. This will be my second purchase (after the TV) on the long road to the home theater I want. I have cheapo speakers and dvd/surround sound right now but will be replacing it all eventually and I want to make sure that the receiver will support everything I want it to do in the future.

Thanks in advance for any advice.

I'll chime back in before this thread turns away potential Denon enjoy'ers.
Aside from the one intermittent video interruption I described above, I am having no other issues with my 2808. Plus the sound is amazing with significantly more power than both competing Sony and Onkyo models I've tried.

Thanks - my sub is only connected to AVR-988 via coaxial cable to dedicated sub input (pre-out) on the receiver. Should it be different ??? That's what AVR-988 suggests for sub connection - it does not mention about crossover connection to speakers. I mainly use 7.1 setup for movies , however, I listen to CDs, SACDs and DVD Audio disks as well, so quality of music , along with bass management is extremly important to me. Play all these music formats , I am using Oppo 970HD player via HDMI into AVR-988. It is fantastic that supports all these formats on one single connection , I love it. Please provide as much eductaion for me on teh sub setup as you can, I am learning a lot and I thank you so much.

Nikonowski.

PS> I will reod the auto setup soon - after SuperBowl

I don't have much more to say except that it sounds like you have your subwoofer wired properly. And I don't think that phrase "crossover connection" has a meaningful interpretation unless you mean sending left and right mains to the subwoofer to let its built-in crossover circuitry do the job. Today's (and probably even yesterday's) AVRs can do a better job on the crossover, and can do so for all seven channels.

(The above is not to deny that if you want to spend many, many thousands more you can't get even more sophisticated equipment!)

rcp