User experiences on Velodyne SMS-1 - Page 6

when it 'reboots' upon saving settings, i get some very subtle pops. at no other time however.

fsrenduro,
When I'm watching a movie that's when I get the popping sounds.

Once you are done doing your measurements and tweaking unhook the audio cables going from the SMS to your receiver (I think it's the one labeled EQ output). You only need these hooked up for calibrating. There is some bleed through with that hookup if you leave them connected all the time. I got thumps just like both you guys are getting as well as when I would change inputs.

i don't buy this...

i mean, if the AVR isn't set to the input that the SMS is connected to, it shouldn't matter what is coming across the eq out connection, right?

on 2nd thought...every time i hear the thumps it is at a reboot caused by a config change, so i *am* using the SMS input on the AVR.

as stated previously, zero extraneous noise when not actually on the SMS input (during config).

This is what I read over at the Velodyne thread (I think). I have to admit that I had already gotten rid of my SMS when I read this. It's a 2 second effort to verify though so if someone can try it and let us know.

fsrenduro,
Thanks will do that and see what happens.

Hi guys...just picked up a used SMS-1 and I'm trying to get a game plan together for EQing my dual Epik Empires. The subs are on opposite L/R walls between the listening position and my screen. They were almost across from each other (within a few inches).

I'm using a Denon 4310ci which employs MultiEQ XT. It *sounded* like the XT was doing a pretty good job on this dual setup but the first graph with no EQing with the SMS revealed a huge cancellation between 15-24hz. The rest of the curve was fairly flat. I tried turning off the sub on the right wall and that flatted the FR considerably. I mean, a pretty nice flat curve with just the one sub running. It was registering right around 78db.

So at this point, I started messing around with placement. Of course, any placement change results in rerunning Audyssey and then adjusting the FR with the SMS. Now I've got the sub that was on the left wall under the screen between my left front and center speakers. The sub on right wall is in the same place. Cancellation still there, just not as severe. So after reading some threads, I decided to change the phase of the sub on the right wall to 180. Whoa. Now the cancellation is nearly gone but 30-40hz now has a substantial peak and my crossover has a slight dip.

So I guess I'm wondering is it best to have the 2nd sub stay out of phase and deal with this peak or should I go back to the position of the original sub that netted me a flat FR and just try stacking the 2nd sub on top of it to see if I can up the SPL while keeping that flat response?
Lugging these things around my room and then running these extensive calibrations is just taking so long. I'd like to just find a good solution and go with it and enjoy my system.
Any thoughts? Are there any other placement suggestions?

Oh and one other thing - I'm currently just using one of the LFE outputs and using a Y-splitter to split the signal to the 2 subs. Would I hear/see any difference using 2 of the LFE outputs and no Y-splitter?

I would keep the 2nd sub out-of phase, deal with the hump with EQ bands on the SMS-1 and then deal with the crossover dip by using the phase control on page 2 of the SMS-1. You can also try making slight changes to the subwoofer Distance setting in your receiver. (However, see my answer to your next question first.)


Turn Audyssey off, turn the EQ off in the SMS-1 and just use the SMS-1's OSD to find the best positions first. Then run Audyssey, and afterwards use the SMS-1 to flatten the resultant FR.


No.

Craig

Quick question as I continue to play around with this thing...

If I set the volume on the SMS to 0 with my receiver volume set to whatever I want, does that give the same result as if the SMS was not in my chain? Basically the FR I'm seeing on my screen is what I would get if the SMS was not there?

Edit: Nope, volume at zero means no volume at all. Hmmm...

If you have an SPL meter just hook your receiver directly to your sub and measure the level. Then add the SMS into the chain and adjust the volume on that until you match that level.

After all the moving the Empires around and running graphs, it looks like the best placement for them is along the front soundstage. Kind of surprised me that it worked out this way but my room is unorthodox in that it's large and has an opening to another room. They ended up about 8 ft apart next to my 2 mains with the center in between them.
FR is rather flat around 78db except for a dip of 6db around 70hz.
What I'm trying to determine now is if I even need the SMS in the chain. I love that it gives me immediate feedback when I move subs and change the volume.

If I remember correctly, Velodyne told me that around 15 is the SMS's 'unity volume'. I believe that means at around 15, the volume from the receiver is the same as the volume leaving the SMS.

If you want to see the response with no filters involved, (as if the SMS-1 was not in the chain), use Preset #6. (However, be aware that any settings on Page 2 are active, even with Preset #6.)

Craig

What's "unorthodox" about that? My room is similar, as are many rooms used for HT's.

That's how my subs are placed as well.


Try using the Phase Control on Page 2 to fix the dip at 70 Hz. It's likely caused by the sub and speakers being out of phase near the crossover point. The Phase Setting may be able to fix it.


If you have flat response without the SMS-1's filters, you don't need it, although I highly douibt that's the case. Can you post a pic of the response curve with no filters set, (Preset #6)?

You stated you still have a dip at 70 Hz. If you have some other way to fix the response at 70 Hz, and you have flat response with no filters, you likely don't need the SMS-1. Try playing with the Distance Control in your receiver. It does a similar kind of adjustment as the Phase Setting in the SMS-1. If that fixes the problem, you can probably get by with just that. (If the Distance Control does fix the problem, let me know and I can probably help you remove the SMS-1 while retaining the same response. It's not as easy as simply removing the SMS-1, but it's a long explanation, and not worth the typing if it doesn't correct the problem.)

Craig

Here is my graph with sub distance set in my Denon at actual distance...



No EQ applied.
I'll try to extend the distance out a bit to see if it helps with the minor dips/phasing.

What do you think, craig? Is this a decent curve to shoot for?


Edit: Here is the graph with sub distance set at 25ft (about 9 ft more than actual)

The response looks better with the longer distance. However, what did Audyssey set the distance at? Was the SMS-1 in the circuit at the time? The SMS-1 adds a few milliseconds of latency, (it takes some time to do the processing.) As long as the SMS-1 is in the chain when Audyssey does it's thing, Audyssey will set the distance to account for the SMS-1 latency. Leave the distance that Audyssey set, even if it's several feet longer than the actual physical distance, and instead adjust the Phase in the SMS-1.

Here's what I do:

Set the SMS-1 to Preset 6, Phase to "0" and Audyssey EQ to Off.

Use the OSD to find the best locations in the room using the SMS-1 test tones with only the subs running, (speakers off). (Your current locations look pretty darn good. I would leave them where they are and try to "tweak" from there.)

After finding the optimal locations, turn on the speakers, run Audyssey at all 8 locations following the "Guide":
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...5#post14456895

After Audyssey has done it's thing, check the crossovers. If any speakers are set to "Large" or "Full Range" set appropriate crossovers on them. Do not change any of the Distance settings at this point.

Then set the SMS-1 to "Setup" and set the receiver to "Stereo".

Go to Page 2 of the SMS-1 and adjust the Phase control until the response around the crossover point of the L/R speakers and sub is as flat as possible, You'll need to flip back and forth between Page 1 and Page 2 to see the response as you adjust the Phase. You may find that the "0" position is best because Audyssey has already compensated for the latency and the physical distance and no more improvement is possible.

Then run a Manual EQ on the rest of frequency bandwidth.

I like to add a little boost on the bottom end to provide a bit of a "house curve", but that is purely personal preference. Also the benefit of this is based on the ability of the subs to increase their output down low. If you try adding boost and the increase in SPL at the boost frequency is not as great as the amount of boost added, don't add boost. IOW, if you add 3 dB of boost at 20 Hz and the level at 20 Hz only goes up 1 dB, don't add the boost.

Good luck and have fun!

Craig

Thanks so much for your help, Craig. I really appreciate it.

When I performed Audyssey EQ, the SMS-1 was in the chain but no EQ employed. Audyssey set my sub distance at 20ft, when in actuality it's more like 16ft. So I guess it took into account the latency you mentioned.
I forgot about that when I posted that first graph. That one is 20ft sub distance. The second graph is 25ft sub distance. So you are saying I should go back to 20ft and use the phase control on page 2? I can do that but I was actually hoping there was a way for Audyssey to be "good enough" and not use the SMS in the chain. I guess that's probably not a good idea based on what you see?
Also, my graph turned out much better at 80hz crossover instead of 60 which was where I started.

Also, what does volume control on the SMS really do? I mean, does it override the volume control on my Denon AVR? I set it to 1 as you can see from the graphs but when I tried to watch a few of my favorite bass demo scenes this afternoon, I could barely feel anything. If I have my Denon at -7.5 and the SMS at 1, is the SMS actually lowering my sub volume which is affecting what I hear and feel?

I tried going through the manual for answers but couldn't really find anything that addressed it.

Yes, that is the way I do it. However, both controls do similar things, so you can use either one. You are just looking for the flattest response around the crossover point. I like to do it my way because it allows Audyssey to compensate for the latency in the SMS-1.


You can try it without the SMS-1, and it might sound fine. Audyssey all by itself is pretty good. Your post Audyssey curve with no SMS-1 filters looks pretty decent, with no huge peaks or nulls. If you take the SMS-1 out, I would re-set the Distance to it's physical distance, then try adding a little distance in small increments, listening to your system to see if there is a setting you like better.

Then that's what I would stick with.

The volume control on the SMS-1 raises the volume coming out of the SMS-1 for the subwoofer only. You want to use it to set the volume of the sub so it is close to the same level as the speakers.

"Unity Gain" is the setting of 15. At that setting the signal coming out of the SMS-1 is fairly level to the signal going in, at least without any filters set. The filters add boosts or cuts which can change the level of the overall signal and the Volume Control allows you to compensate for those boosts and cuts. When you start out at 15, and then set filters, if you add more boosts than cuts, you may need to reduce the Volume Control to compensate. If you use more cuts and little boost, you may want to raise the volume control to compensate.

You never want to set the Volume to "0", as you will have no signal coming out of the SMS-1, (hence why you felt almost no bass with the Volume at 0 or 1.) Try resetting it to 15 and see if the levels on the OSD from 80 Hz down are roughly equivalent to the levels above 80 Hz.

Craig

New SMS-1 owner here, with one main question - while running the setup sweeps per the Outlaw user guide last week, I keep getting two annoying "pops" from the speakers (L+R) when exiting various onscreen menus. Is this normal, or could I have a defective unit? I have until the end of this week to send this back for a direct replacement. Unit was brought brand new from authorized online dealer.

I have the SMS-1 connected to my Onkyo TX-SR805's VCR input (L+R audio and composite video), with HDMI output to the Pioneer 141 monitor.

Also, I'd prefer to have the SMS-1 connected to my receiver's switched outlet, instead of adding to my Harmony One account so that it powers up/down with all other gear (current setup). This preference is primarily due to the SMS-1 currently on the bottom shelf of my Synergy rack, mostly line-of-sight blocked by the cherry wood trim of the door. Does anyone see an issue with this? I'm not sure if the SMS-1 will remember the last input mode used (ie, #5 Custom) when powering up this way as opposed to powering up from the Standby mode.

Or should I relocate the SMS-1 so that it will receive commands via line-of-sight from the Harmony One?

Thanks in advance, and I'm sure to have more questions on how to get the max performance out of the SMS-1 for my system...

I think the pops are typical as they happened to me too in that situation.

As for turning the SMS on/off I'd just leave it on 24/7. It uses very little power and is the best way to avoid turn on pops.

To clarify, I do not have pops when the SMS turns on/off. Only when saving/exiting from the second screen during the EQ exercises...

Sorry I did not clarify this in my earlier post...

Even with your clarification I would give the exact same advice.

I talked to someone at Velodyne, and he said the pops should not be happening. I'll try connecting the EQ out to a different input on the amp and see if the pops still occur. If so, I'll send the SMs back for a replacement.

I noticed that when I was on the System Settings screen, I could barely here the test tone still repeating itself. Has anyone else noticed this also?

I don't have any "popping" either, so, if Velo says it's abnormal, I suspect there is a problem with your unit.

I *do* have the very low level test tones whenever the SMS-1 EQ output is connected. The tones are always present on the outputs, even when you're not performing the EQ. If your receiver/pre/pro has any low level "crosstalk" between inputs, you'll hear it, but only at *very* low levels. I disconnect the EQ outputs whenever I'm not performing the EQ procedure... problem, (slight as it is), solved.

The following is from the "Official" Velodyne Support thread. It is a response from curt c, the Velodyne support rep:



http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...s#post17194019

Craig

^^ Craig, thanks for the reply and confirmation. Also, thanks for the link to the "official" thread...and for not yelling at me for not reading thru it first before posting here!! I had assumed that thread was for their subs only.

It's too bad that thread is not broken into two - one huge one dedicated for subs, another for other Velo gear (ie, SMS). But I realize that some Velo subs have the EQ built in, so one big thread makes sense in that regards. Oh well, I'll probably skip over many posts there as I continue to learn about the SMS-1...

EDIT: My SMS is running V2.1.4 software.

Hi All,
I've just picked up a SMS-1 to replace my BFD used to EQ my two subs.
Am I correct in saying that I should manually EQ all presets initially by selecting preset 'setup' so that the manual eq is applied globally across presets 1-5? From reading through this thread, this seems to be implied. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Regards,
Stephen

Edit: Curt answered this for me here

That's interesting that Velodyne says this shouldn't be happening because I had the exact same thing happen with mine. I just assumed it was normal and didn't think much of it.

What is in 2.1.4?

No idea whatsoever about any changes from 2.1.3, but wanted to clarify which software my SMS-1 has. We may be able to find out specifics over at the main Official Velodyne Support Thread. I just haven't had the time to go thru all 218+ pages yet...

Hi all,
I've been using a Behringer feedback Destroyer (BFD) for 4 years to EQ my 15” jamo servo and a 10” B&W 610XP subs. I have just replaced this with a SMS-1. While both units achieve similar results, using the SMS-1 with its on screen display certainly makes it easy to EQ your sub(s).

Using the BFD and a laptop running REW, EQing your subs is a semi manual process. You run the tones and observe the graph. You then manually enter cuts or boosts into the BFD and repeat the process. Note that you can get a cable to allow REW to program the BFD. i didn't have one of these. With the SMS-1 it is all real-time. As you are making the adjustments with the remote it is being displayed on your TV screen. As my subs are located in cabinets (wife acceptance factor) getting to the volume and phase controls is difficult. The SMS-1 allows you to adjust these (including polarity) through its user interface without getting behind the subs. This is a big help when you are trying to get a smooth cross over between your subs and mains.

The SMS-1 also adds a great deal of flexibility to allow different EQ modes, for movies and music through its various presets. You can all defeat all EQ though one button press on the remote. EQ default is also possible through the front panel of the BFD, but does not offer the same level of flexibility with phase, EQ curves and volume and assigning these to various presets.

One last added advantage of the SMS-1 over the BFD was a very small bit of hum that was introduced by the BFD. You could only hear this if you put your head near the subs or speakers. Groundloops are a know issue with BFD's. Now with the SMS-1 both speakers and subs are dead silent.

The below graph for my two subs and mains was acheived in around 30 minutes once I had the SMS-1 installed. To acheive a similar results with a BFD would take a couple of hours.



The SMS-1 does cost more that the BFD by a considerable margin, but it greatly simplifies the EQ process. if you can pick up a second hand SMS-1 at a good price i would recommend it. Saying that, EQing your subs with a BFD does give you a good understanding of room acoustics and is enjoyable if you like ‘tinkering’.

Whether you choose the SMS-1 or BFD, the outcome of both these units is tight bass that is smooth without the boominess. Watching (actually feeling) the scorpion scene from Transformers with EQéd subs always brings a smile to my face

I have to admit however, after spending some time with the SMS-1, I'm a fan.

Regards,
Stephen