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Lossless audio - Only a concern for a few consumers

post #1 of 516
Thread Starter 
At least that's how the film industry sees it right now.

While I love the potential for a soundtrack with lossless audio, the reality of my situation is that since I will be listening to any HDM through an older 6.1 channel receiver on speakers which cost about $250 I seriously doubt that the difference between DD+ and "lossless" will be noticeable.

And frankly that is the situation which the majority of consumers in America are in right now. 95% of the people out there do not have the audio gear to appreciate the difference in quality between a standard digital soundtrack and the latest and greatest in audioHD.

Given the fact that the format war will not be won by sales from early adopters and high end audiophiles it seems odd to me that there is so much concern on these boards over the inclusion/exclusion of lossless audio tracks.

Why would you expect the movie industry to cater to anything other than the majority of the potential market? To expect anything else is entirely unreasonable.

At this point in time they are preparing to push HDM into the mainstream and to do that they will need to have enough media available on the shelves to entice J6P into buying their players.

Of course they are going to push the titles out with DD or DD+ rather than waiting months to tweek the codecs to the point where Lossless audio can be on every disc. That will happen, just not fast enough for the media to be on the shelves this holiday season.

This is just like what happened in the late 90's, when several DVDs were released with sub-par audio tracks due to the fact that 99% of the homes in America didn't have a home theater audio setup.

Later on, the companies came back with "remastered" disc and "special editions" (Superbit anyone?) which gave them even more money and satisfied the demands of the general public once the audio tastes of the masses had matured.

This is exactly what is happening once again and frankly to expect anything else is basically wishful thinking.

The movie industry views the few people who have already dived into the HDM market as "hobbyists" and while they certainly appreciate your input as to building the "dream platform" they are nevertheless going to market the majority of their product to the remaining 95% of the country.

Expect anything else and you are just setting yourselves up for severe disappointment and a major reality check.
post #2 of 516
Lossless Audio is a really big deal to me. Amazing audio tracks are a major part of having the total home cinema experience.

I really cannot express how happy I am with Sony/MGM/Columbia and Disney for listening to us and including so many lossless tracks.

IMO its not Tier 0 without lossless audio!
post #3 of 516
Thread Starter 
And sadly for people like you, you are in a very small minority at this point in time.
post #4 of 516
AQ is more important than PQ to me
this may change when I own a FP and 100"+ screen.
post #5 of 516
Quote:
Lossless audio - Only a concern for a few consumers?

Yes.
post #6 of 516
I don't have a high end system (Onkyo 605, Polk Audio R50 speakers etc.) and I CAN hear a difference between lossy and lossless audio. There is a depth and vibrancy in lossless that is absent from vanilla DD & DTS. I can only imagine just how much better it would sound if I had high end components.

My components put me squarely in the 95% crowd, not the 5%.
post #7 of 516
While the OP is certainly correct in stating that lossless audio is lost on the masses, frankly so is this AVS Forum. The surprise that we discuss the need for more and more quality in both sound and picture should come, of course, as no surprise. We're the classic early adopters. We can and do have an influence (more about quality control than new feature sets, of course). Ultimately, though, the masses rule. Let's hope quality implementations of lossless audio is economical enough, and drives new equipment sales enough to continue on, regardless of whether joe sixpack fully understands and appreciates it.
post #8 of 516
Lossless audio is a no-brainer for at least one format. The other format is a bit more problematical because of bandwidth issues.

The capability is there for lossless audio; some of us will demand it; especially if it is cheap and easy for at least one of the formats.
post #9 of 516
I think the number of people who care about lossless is lager than the number that can actually perceive the difference, but both are fractional.

From my experience, and with the rarest exceptions both lossless and and lossy HD audio tracks offer markedly better sound than DVD, but not, markedly better sound than each other, and that's what I think most notice. Few have either the ear or equipment discern it's perceived advantage.

All you're going to get with this thread is the same 18-24 people who always claim it's a must, which will appear as a larger number than the many, many more who are bored witless by the whole concern.

I don't doubt that there are a handful of audiophiles who genuinely, sincerely, and passionately care about this issues, but from what I can tell they are only a handful.
post #10 of 516
Quote:
Originally Posted by luclin999 View Post

At least that's how the film industry sees it right now.

While I love the potential for a soundtrack with lossless audio, the reality of my situation is that since I will be listening to any HDM through an older 6.1 channel receiver on speakers which cost about $250 I seriously doubt that the difference between DD+ and "lossless" will be noticeable.

And frankly that is the situation which the majority of consumers in America are in right now. 95% of the people out there do not have the audio gear to appreciate the difference in quality between a standard digital soundtrack and the latest and greatest in audioHD.

Given the fact that the format war will not be won by sales from early adopters and high end audiophiles it seems odd to me that there is so much concern on these boards over the inclusion/exclusion of lossless audio tracks.

Why would you expect the movie industry to cater to anything other than the majority of the potential market? To expect anything else is entirely unreasonable.

At this point in time they are preparing to push HDM into the mainstream and to do that they will need to have enough media available on the shelves to entice J6P into buying their players.

Of course they are going to push the titles out with DD or DD+ rather than waiting months to tweek the codecs to the point where Lossless audio can be on every disc. That will happen, just not fast enough for the media to be on the shelves this holiday season.

This is just like what happened in the late 90's, when several DVDs were released with sub-par audio tracks due to the fact that 99% of the homes in America didn't have a home theater audio setup.

Later on, the companies came back with "remastered" disc and "special editions" (Superbit anyone?) which gave them even more money and satisfied the demands of the general public once the audio tastes of the masses had matured.

This is exactly what is happening once again and frankly to expect anything else is basically wishful thinking.

The movie industry views the few people who have already dived into the HDM market as "hobbyists" and while they certainly appreciate your input as to building the "dream platform" they are nevertheless going to market the majority of their product to the remaining 95% of the country.

Expect anything else and you are just setting yourselves up for severe disappointment and a major reality check.

Nice speculation, at least provide some concrete info with your thread title. I can do it too:

Interactive extras - Only a concern for a few consumers.

At the very least you need to change your title; your thread title sounds like some survey or research has been done prove your point, but it is really speculating. Quite misleading...
post #11 of 516
Quote:
Originally Posted by Itsdon View Post

I don't have a high end system (Onkyo 605, Polk Audio R50 speakers etc.) ...My components put me squarely in the 95% crowd, not the 5%.

Dude. You are in the top 5%. BTW, why didn't you compare DD+ to lossless?

Most people think an Insignia HTiB that supports 5.1 DD is high end.
They also use their TV speakers and no receiver.
post #12 of 516
"IMO its not Tier 0 without lossless audio!"

Indeed, a movie is about the audio and visual experience not just visual.
post #13 of 516
Quote:
Originally Posted by briankmonkey View Post

"IMO its not Tier 0 without lossless audio!"

Indeed, a movie is about the audio and visual experience not just visual.

I think there can be bad lossless encodes and amazing DD+ encodes, so I completely disagree.
post #14 of 516
Quote:
Originally Posted by Everdog View Post

I think there can be bad lossless encodes and amazing DD+ encodes, so I completely disagree.

Definitely can be bad lossless encodes, I agree with that. As well as amazing for what DD+ is capable just as amazing encodes for audio and vidoe for what a DVD is capable of.
post #15 of 516
I'll pimp for scaesare's thread. You folks going to participate?

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=909957
post #16 of 516
While lossless obviously avoids the potential for bad encodes, a good 1.5mbit DD+ is near indistinguishable from lossless. After all, you're talking 300kbit/channel (the LFE takes pretty much nothing), and in music compression that's essentially transparent.
The problem most people have with DD+ is that many discs are at 640k, and that really isn't good enough.

Of course, unless peak bitrate is _really_ tight, TruHD takes hardly any more than that 1.5mbit, and most modern HDDVDs shouldn't have a problem fitting it in (unless it's really grainy or at 1.85:1, and has IME as well).

Uncompressed PCM is of course just plain silly, but Bluray has enough bitrate that it doesn't really matter - however once they move to 24bit 7.1 then it starts to become more of a hassle, cos that eats almost 10mbit.
post #17 of 516
Quote:
Originally Posted by Timothy Ramzyk View Post

... both lossless and and lossy HD audio tracks offer markedly better sound than DVD, but not, markedly better sound than each other, and that's what I think most notice. Few have either the ear or equipment discern it's perceived advantage...

Is this "lossless" being talked about uncompressed PCM? If so, uncompressed audio is almost as stupid as uncompress video. >99% will be happy with the new HD audio compression formats.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Everdog View Post

Dude. You are in the top 5%. BTW, why didn't you compare DD+ to lossless?...

This "5%" is major FUD. No way is it 5%. More like 0.5%, dude included.
post #18 of 516
Quote:
Originally Posted by wtr_wkr View Post

This "5%" is major FUD. No way is it 5%. More like 0.5%, dude included.

I just like it when I get to type the word "dude"! You are right though.

BTW, I love the movie Metropolis. If it comes to HDM, for some reason I doubt it would be any better with lossless audio. So I guess it can never make Tier 0.
post #19 of 516
Quote:
Originally Posted by Timothy Ramzyk View Post

From my experience, and with the rarest exceptions both lossless and and lossy HD audio tracks offer markedly better sound than DVD, but not, markedly better sound than each other, and that's what I think most notice. Few have either the ear or equipment discern it's perceived advantage.

So theres alot of difference between some lossy and alot of lossy, but barely a difference between some lossy and no lossy??????
post #20 of 516
You need to remember that probably 80% of folks who own the new plasma/lcd etc HDTV's are either:

* Listening to ONLY their TV speakers
* Bought a HTiB and love it

These folks who everyone here is so eager to win over into the hi-def DVD world must realize the average consumer has NO plan to upgrade their audio to what it would take to even hear a lossless soundtrack...they are content with what they have.

Remember a lot of folks have a hurdle to get over..that being the Wife Approval Factor...getting the big 'ol 57" TV into the house was hard work in some cases...no way they are going to be able to get "approval" to rewire the whole living room to get full on audio nirvana.

Oh sure there will be folks who can and do get to that point, but the shoppers roaming BB/Sears/WM/CC etc are forever going to be content with basic 5.1 surround sound.
post #21 of 516
Quote:
Originally Posted by luclin999 View Post

And sadly for people like you, you are in a very small minority at this point in time.

Just like all of us at AVS who own an HD DVD or Blu-ray player, we are the minority who believe in this format.
post #22 of 516
Quote:
Originally Posted by shamus View Post

So theres alot of difference between some lossy and alot of lossy, but barely a difference between some lossy and no lossy??????

Sure. Its like this...

Its easy to tell the difference between one discarded PS3 and a pile of 100 discarded PS3s. But it is a lot harder to tell the difference between a pile of 5000 and a pile of 5100 discarded PS3s.

A corollary to this is that lots of PS3s owners are playing Halo 3 today.
post #23 of 516
Quote:
Originally Posted by Everdog View Post

I just like it when I get to type the word "dude"! You are right though.

BTW, I love the movie Metropolis. If it comes to HDM, for some reason I doubt it would be any better with lossless audio. So I guess it can never make Tier 0.

Well the proof to your point can be had sooner than that. Look at the review of Halloween on Hifi Digest it got like a 2.5 for sound and it was PMC 5.1 which everyone raves about. The problem was not with the codec but the source is so poor that well it comes through crappy no matter what. So even if you released this title on 4K video with 192/24 audio it would still look and sound worse than say Underworld at 480P and 448kb Dolby. If you have good source and treat it the best possible release than go for it but please keep in mind the quality of the source material is far more important than the encode used (to a point, I am assuming something better than 192K here)
post #24 of 516
Not sadly, I think about what my family and I want when buying my home theater gear not what somebody else wants that I don't know. I still find it amusing that people at AVS shout off J6P wants this, doesn't want that as if that has any bearing on what I'm buying. Great you bought a Venturer DVD player or Daewoo TV, go knock yourself out with that but it isn't for me.
post #25 of 516
Quote:
Originally Posted by briankmonkey View Post

Not sadly, I think about what my family and I want when buying my home theater gear not what somebody else wants that I don't know. I still find it amusing that people at AVS shout off J6P wants this, doesn't want that as if that has any bearing on what I'm buying. Great you bought a Venturer DVD player or Daewoo TV, go knock yourself out with that but it isn't for me.

Only this worse would be to have a closed mind, set arbitrary goals and say...
"IMO its not Tier 0 without lossless audio!"

...not ever considering the fact that some movies can sound just as good with 1.5 mbit DD+. Sad indeed.
post #26 of 516
I'm very glad that Universal is now putting TruHD lossless audio on all of their HD DVD releases from now on.

This is a good example to other studios. TruHD or DTS MA lossless audio is a great addition to any release.
post #27 of 516
Quote:
Originally Posted by Everdog View Post

Only this worse would be to have a closed mind, set arbitrary goals and say...
"IMO its not Tier 0 without lossless audio!"

...not ever considering the fact that some movies can sound just as good with 1.5 mbit DD+. Sad indeed.

I'm open to any examples you provide. So far I haven't listened to any DD+ that have as good of audio, certainly nothing that is reference material. Then again when a review says the lossless track is better than the DD+ track you discredit/make excuses anyways so there really is no point as clearly you and I will never agree on this.

Bottom line is I'm fortunate to have normal hearing and vision to enjoy the benefits of my purchase. It is a big part of why I love watching movies at home
post #28 of 516
Quote:
Originally Posted by rdjam View Post

I'm very glad that Universal is now putting TruHD lossless audio on all of their HD DVD releases from now on.

This is a good example to other studios. TruHD or DTS MA lossless audio is a great addition to any release.

Indeed, a big move in the right direction.
post #29 of 516
When did this forum become a blog area. I keep seeing long winded opinion pieces pop up in this forum.
post #30 of 516
Why shouldn't we demand lossless for the majority of titles? Why did HD DVD mandate Dolby TrueHD decoding on every player if there is no intention to use it? While I agree that DD+@1.5mbps sounds great for most titles, there is no reason not to expect TrueHD or PCM when applicable. I can tell the difference between lossless and DD+ on a number of titles, and while I have invested a fair amount of money on my equipment and media room, I have not broke the bank either.

I am fine with DD+/DTS@1.5mbps on select titles but studios should push lossless sound. Is it that much more expensive to add it? Dolby does not charge any extra fees to support TrueHD on a track.

We should all (both formats) expect the best since we are paying a very premium price for HDM.
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