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WSR Greg Rogers Sony VPL-VW60 Review, official thread! - Page 2

post #31 of 481
Greg:

Nice review. It will certainly stimulate interest from potential buyers. Heck, even I'm tempted, though I really have no rational need for another PJ.

Just one question about methodology. I wonder if you had considered publishing the raw xyY (or Yuv) data and dE for the primary and secondary colors as you do for the gray scale?
post #32 of 481
Was there any noticeable light spill on either side of a 16:9 image if projected on a scope screen without side masking? This was reported by Kemet, but I have not seen this on earlier Sony's. Thanks.
post #33 of 481
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bear5k View Post

Alright, two follow-ups if you don't mind. Only one of which is related to the review, and I bet that is the one you may be most willing to answer.

1) A 10-bit processor means that it could take a 10-bit signal, but do you know whether it will take anything higher than 8-bit YCbCr or RGB as an input via HDMI?

All HDMI receivers (all versions) accept 10-bit and 12-bit YCbCr 4:2:2 signals. (Technically all DVI transmitters and receivers can also transmit/accept 10-bit/12-bit YCbCr 4:2:2). So what matters is the bit depth of the internal processing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bear5k View Post

2) (OT) Will the HDG-4000 allow users to specify bit-depth (8, 10 or 12-bit 4:2:2) for the output signal so that we can test these ourselves?

Not day one (just didn't have time to implement it for the first release). But you will note on our web page (new feature #4) the HDG-4000 is fully field upgradeable so who knows ....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bear5k View Post

Do let us know when you will be taking pre-orders for the new signal generator. We always like new toys!

We won't take any orders until all the parts have arrived and the first batch of generators are built and tested. I don't want anyone sending us money and then waiting if there are any manufacturing snafu's in the first production run.
post #34 of 481
Greg, on the pixel adjustments, the unit sounds great with the ability to fine tune. But exactly how do you do the alignment? Are you striving to have the other two colors sit flat on the green?

I'm not sure if this is the goal of the pixel convergence.

BTW, an excellent review. Very enjoyable and should help a lot of people who value both color and an overall finely tuned projector. I thought the Pearl was a winner and this sounds like they took it to the next level in more than one respect. Your summation was excellent in that regard.
post #35 of 481
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Sorel View Post

Greg, it seems as if the RCP is the same old one that Sony has used in previous models, right? If so, I assume that as the saturation of a primary is pulled down that luminance also decreases. Did you at any point adjust the primaries so that they were spot on target? And if so, did it throw off the color decoding significantly?

I wonder if luminance could be restored in this situation using outboard RGB luminance controls.

It appears to be the same as previous. The luminance changes with changes in the RCP Color control. I did some experimenting with the red and green primaries, but I didn't have much time to really explore the tradeoffs between those changes and the Wide color mode. The Normal color mode was really quite good without the RCP so I put my time into exploring other non-color areas of the projector's performance.
post #36 of 481
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by francisford View Post

Greg,
How much is the gain in contrast when moving from minimum throw to the maximum throw ratio of the zoom lens?

Nice review, thanks.

I didn't measure the CR at the minimum throw since it visually dropped a lot and the brightness was pretty darn good without giving up contrast. I would stick with the middle of the zoom range to the max throw depending on the amount of light you need.
post #37 of 481
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by WOLVERNOLE View Post

Thanks Greg. Followup question, please. One of two main things keeping me back from the VW-50 was my perception that it was not BRIGHT enough (in addition to a "murky/not clear" sense about the screen). Jason's early review seemed to indicate that the VW-60 (Black Pearl) was not much brighter than the VW-50. Please reiterate about the perceived and actual brightness.
Thanks again !

You can see that my lumen numbers are much higher than Jason's and the projector was about 25%-28% brighter than the VW50 I measured in my previous review.
post #38 of 481
Quote:


The Normal color mode was really quite good without the RCP so I put my time into exploring other non-color areas of the projector's performance.

That's great! You mentioned the color performance in the normal mode several times in your review and again here, so it sounds like Sony made a good choice (for us accuracy freaks, anyway ) by providing a more accurate mode.

Thanks again, Greg!
post #39 of 481
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TomHuffman View Post

Just one question about methodology. I wonder if you had considered publishing the raw xyY (or Yuv) data and dE for the primary and secondary colors as you do for the gray scale?

I haven't really considered it but I will give it some thought.
post #40 of 481
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carey P View Post

Was there any noticeable light spill on either side of a 16:9 image if projected on a scope screen without side masking? This was reported by Kemet, but I have not seen this on earlier Sony's. Thanks.

The answer is in the review (Brightness and Color Uniformity section).
post #41 of 481
gregr,

Great review. Has me considering that projector as well.

And I know I'm not the only one trying to decide whether to go JVC RS1/RS2 or Sony Black Pearl. As far as the sharpness issue; it's been generally held that the previous Pearl was a bit softer than the JVC. While you didn't have the JVC and the Black Pearl side by side, can you estimate how the new Pearl likely compares to the JVC RS 1 in terms of image sharpness?

Thanks,
post #42 of 481
Quote:


I haven't really considered it but I will give it some thought.

I'm another one who would love to see the raw data published. This would help us put the color deviations into perspective a bit better...a nice augmentation to the CIE u'v' charts.
post #43 of 481
Greg:

On the VW50 review (and later 1080p DLP reviews), you commented on the lost detail on the highlights (brightness compression). You suggest this has been solved. Can you confirm it?
post #44 of 481
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by romanesq View Post

Greg, on the pixel adjustments, the unit sounds great with the ability to fine tune. But exactly how do you do the alignment? Are you striving to have the other two colors sit flat on the green?

You align the red and blue images with the green. Sony provides a test pattern with 2 pixel-wide horiz and vert lines. I suspect they did that to sort of mask what happens to the width of the red and blue lines when the adjustment is turned on. It is much easier to do the alignment with single pixel 1080p lines. In that case you align the red and blue lines to minimize the perceived fringing around the single pixel-wide green lines. This is easiest to do if you can input just two colors at a time, which you can do with the HDG-4000 generator or a PC.
post #45 of 481
I have one observation about Greg's review that he may or may not choose to add to.

The pre-calibration gray scale dE is unusually high (16 at 30 IRE). That indicates that this projector, more than most, will certainly benefit from a full gray scale calibration. Some PJs are relatively accurate out of the box. This one apparently isn't.
post #46 of 481
greg,
all right here the million dollar question. how does the image look compared to the JVC rs-1? is i comparable? what attributes stick out from one projector the the other?
post #47 of 481
Greg

Can you give some of your thoughts of the performance of the VW60 compared to the JVC RS1?
post #48 of 481
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Sorel View Post

That's great! You mentioned the color performance in the normal mode several times in your review and again here, so it sounds like Sony made a good choice (for us accuracy freaks, anyway ) by providing a more accurate mode.

Thanks again, Greg!

Yes, I talked to them about it. They specifically told me that they had read my previous VW50 review criticism in that regard. I just wished they had put in 3 color space modes. One for SMPTE-C, one for Rec 709, and then their native mode. This is a case where the manufacturers could get what they want (over saturated primaries, which sell more projectors to the masses) and video enthusiasts could also get accurate colors. Everybody wins. Sharp and Yamaha learned that a long time ago.
post #49 of 481
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post

As far as the sharpness issue; it's been generally held that the previous Pearl was a bit softer than the JVC. While you didn't have the JVC and the Black Pearl side by side, can you estimate how the new Pearl likely compares to the JVC RS 1 in terms of image sharpness?

I didn't have them side by side, but I believe the VW60 was at least as good as the RS-1, plus there was no noticeable color fringing on the VW60 (from a normal viewing distance) using the new panel alignment feature.
post #50 of 481
Greg, did the improved sharpness increase the visible pixel structure from a relatively close distance to the screen.
post #51 of 481
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grubert View Post

Greg:

On the VW50 review (and later 1080p DLP reviews), you commented on the lost detail on the highlights (brightness compression). You suggest this has been solved. Can you confirm it?

The brightness compression hasn't been "solved". It is basically an intrinsic result of a dynamic iris with dynamic gamma. In the VW100 (Ruby) which was the first Sony front projector with a dynamic iris it was quite troublesome because the DI algorithms were so aggressive (to get higher perceived contrast). In the VW50 (Pearl) the aggressiveness was dialed way back so the perceived contrast was not as high in many scenes but the brightness compression was much less obvious. Plus the Auto 2 mode was added, which allowed the user to select an even less aggressive mode for brighter films where shadow detail was not as important and brightness compression was more likely to occur. I think the algorithms have been tweaked again in the VW60 (along with a wider aperture range) and brightness compression is even less obvious. You will note in the review that I still used the Auto 2 mode in several cases to reduce brightness compression. However, I think in many cases the viewer won't even recognize brightness compression without freezing the frame and comparing the Auto mode to the Iris Off mode. So for many people that don't recognize it when it happens it is probably a non-issue. But for other people just knowing that the image gamma is not always exactly as intended is an issue. Even if you do recognize it when it happens, it is usually modest enough to be considered just one of many tradeoffs when picking a projector.
post #52 of 481
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by RobZ View Post

Greg, did the improved sharpness increase the visible pixel structure from a relatively close distance to the screen.

Yes, but that is not a negative, it is an improvement in sharpness. The pixel structure was only visible from a close distance.
post #53 of 481
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TomHuffman View Post

I have one observation about Greg's review that he may or may not choose to add to.

The pre-calibration gray scale dE is unusually high (16 at 30 IRE). That indicates that this projector, more than most, will certainly benefit from a full gray scale calibration. Some PJs are relatively accurate out of the box. This one apparently isn't.

Nothing to add other than it was consistent with the VW50 out of the box.
post #54 of 481
here's a good one

Greg what do you think of the VW60 compared to a nice high-end CRT unit?

thanks a bunch

-Gary
post #55 of 481
Greg,

In terms of brightness, is the JVC RS1 brighter than the Black Pearl? Also, on average are the black levels on the RS1 higher than those from the VPL VW60?

Regards,
post #56 of 481
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by toddbee View Post

greg,
all right here the million dollar question. how does the image look compared to the JVC rs-1? is i comparable? what attributes stick out from one projector the the other?

Quote:
Originally Posted by heja View Post

Can you give some of your thoughts of the performance of the VW60 compared to the JVC RS1?

I think you should compare my RS-1 review to this review and make your own assessment based on ALL of the details that matter to you. There are clear differences in color accuracy and in native contrast ratio. I suppose those are the biggest issues for most people. Sony wins big on color, JVC wins big on native contrast ratio. Then there are the "do you feel lucky issues" which are convergence, and brightness and color uniformity issues. Sony has gone a long way in the VW60 toward removing the convergence issue (and apparently will take another big step in the VW200). The uniformity was quite good on the VW60 that I reviewed but wasn't so good on the VW50 that I reviewed. So have they "solved" uniformity issues or was I just luckier this time? There are so many other factors to consider that its impossible for me to know how important each one is to you. Brightness, calibration adjustments, input setup options, fan noise, odd performance quirks, etc. etc. There is just no way that I can weight all of the issues based on what is important to you.
post #57 of 481
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary Murrell View Post

here's a good one

Greg what do you think of the VW60 compared to a nice high-end CRT unit?
-Gary

You can legally watch HD DVDs and Blu-ray discs using digital signals on the VW60.
post #58 of 481
Quote:
Originally Posted by gregr View Post

You can legally watch HD DVDs and Blu-ray discs using digital signals on the VW60.

not really what I was looking for Greg but sort of true

-Gary
post #59 of 481
What was the native on/off without iris engaged?

Thanks!
post #60 of 481
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by reio-ta View Post

What's the difference between max contrast with Auto 1 and Auto 2 modes? I didn't like Auto1 much on the VW50, so I'll probably like Auto 2 on the VW60 more too. Is the difference in contrast really noticeable by the eye?

The Auto 2 mode produces somewhat less perceived contrast (the minimum aperture setting is larger) but less brightness compression. I used the Auto 2 setting for brighter films where shadow detail is less prominent and you are more likely to run into brightness compression. I used the Auto 1 mode on some darker films that have a lot of shadow detail.
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