$1million if you can tell the difference between Monster Cables & Pear Cable - Page 3  

Has anyone ever offered $1mil to get anyone to distinguish between pot roast cooked in a GE oven and one cooked in a Viking range?

Here? frugal people? NO!



I ACTUALLY FEEL THAT THEY ARE PROMOTING THESE HIGHER QUALITY CABLES BY THAT STATEMENT.


It certainly doesn't garuntee a good a/b test but they used to (and I guess still do) ship, any dealer who asks, one piece of lamp cord and one piece of their normal speaker wire of the same length in a package to be used for customer comparison purposes.

Fraud is fraud ... no matter how you try to justify it.

Given a thread on $50 cables that cost $7,000, I listen to a quarter million dollar system daily. It didn't cost that much, but as long as we're living in a fantasy world...

Rijax said it well. I think that anyone who believes that expensive cables are better than inexpensive cables has failed to reach their full potential as rational and intelligent humans. And I think the same is true for people who buy cables based on their looks (while I understand wanting good looking things in your home, I don't know of any components with cable inputs on the front where you'd see them, so how can looks matter?). While both types of people embarass me as a fellow human, they should be left to their delusions as long as they are not pretending that they made their purchases based on any scientific evidence and trying to convince others to do what they did.

And no, Chu, the same line of thinking does not apply to medical treatments. I have never heard of any expensive cables that make your system sound worse than it would with inexpensive cables, much less increase your chance of dying.

Not yet but there may be people who could tell the difference. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/2880471.stm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supertaster

Penngray made some good points on page 2. Who really cares about $7500 cables? Pretty irrelevant for most of us. It is interesting that lots of folks laugh derisively about anyone who would pay that for cables, but then turn around and say that $200 or $150 or whatever is an acceptable and legitmate amount. That is purely based on spending ability, not science. The prices from Monoprice to Blue Jeans are pretty significantly different. Is BJ worth it?

Not really, I have read about people on audio asylum who spend far more on speaker cables then their speakers are worth.


Again what does money have to do with it?


And it happened just the way me and Michael Grant said it would. ChrisWiggles and mike lavigne ruined the thread because they so not understand and could no longer discuss their position.

I have heard a couple $250k plus systems and they didn't spend that much on cable. Isn't the core debate in question centering around the idea that cable can actually improve the sound in question?

Cable itself can only deliver the signal in a very efficient manner not make the sound better.

You can measure how efficient a cable is at delivering signal but that alone is not a measurement of how good it sounds which is a subjective measure. Is this not like asking what burger empirically tastes better?

heard both a 100k and 50k and owned a 25k...

in my opinion, cables don't make a difference... as long as they are well constructed, they are all going to sound the same... to me... ymmv...

hey, it's people's money... as long as they preface their statements with "in my opinion", more power to them... keeps the economy going...

The problem for me is an issue of trust. Recently I was in a local audio dealer auditioning speakers and the sales guy started suggesting that I do room correction by using expensive cables. He said something about using stranded silver cable to improve treble and I thanked him for his time and left.

Salesmen and Journalists (this all started because a reviewer called the $7000 cables dance-able) should be held accountable or it's bad for the industry. I could easily see someone like my Dad who loves music but is frightened of technology buying whatever cables this jerk recommended. Thats fraud. and here in the forums we let people get away with it by tagging their posts with YMMV or whatever. I believe in free speech but I also believe in snake oil salesmen should be tared and feathered and run out of town (what ever the modern equivalent of that may be).

While I am not a person who hawks expensive cables, and I believe in simple utility, I also believe that we may not be able to measure everything we can hear with respect to audio, and while I believe that this may evidence itself more in terms of complex component differances , as opposed to simple cable , I don't know that we yet know everything to test for, and it could be that simple electrical tests on wire/cable could be , well, too simple.
That being said, I do recall seeing some wire tests where wire was doing something to the signal (objectively bad), so there indeed could be differances in cable. The next question is therefor would you expect two cables made differantly (differantly shielded, braded, or made with differant materials) to be identical in every respect, or simply that because we can't yet measure the differances with current equipment or techniques that our ears couldn't detect a differance either?
Again, for the record, I don't use ultra high-end or esoteric cables, I just am not an absolutist, and I do believe in God.

I'm sure if your question is referencing my line of thinking, but if it is, I think Tnilsson answered it as well as I could, and certainly more succinctly.


Speaker cables are hardly a life and death situation.



I am at a loss to understand how you could misconstrue my words as an attempt to justify fraud. Fraud is an act committed by the seller. My comments address an action by the purchaser. All they attempt to justify is a person's right to spend their money as they see fit without being told they are an idiot for doing so. My logic being that, if they are pleased, or enjoy, or are happy with their purchase, for any reason whatsoever, then, in their eyes, the purchase is justified.


WHAT? A B&M audio dealer who doesn't believe in product promotion?

Jake, all that portion of SVS's statement which you quoted does is extol what they consider to be the virtues of their product. Surely you don't claim there is anything unethical or illegal about that, do you? Also, your quote left off the portion of SVS's statement that the poster highlighted in bold print, which said "We often tell folks that are on a tight budget to get good quality 12 or 14 gauge wire for their speakers or passive sub packages, and just enjoy the bass. Those that want to spend more, and show off their system in the process need look no further than the new high-power wires from Better Cables." I find that to be a very reasonable, fair, and praiseworthy statement.

Also, nowhere in the SVS statement, as presented in buzzy_'s post, does SVS claim their speaker cables "sound better" than any other speaker cables. They do say "Your SVS products simply can not sound better than they will with these wires." They are simply saying that no other speaker cable will sound better than theirs, which in no way contradicts the assertion that, as long as they are properly constructed using proper materials, any speaker cable will suffice.

Is SVS promoting their product? Absolutely. Are they making any false claims? Not in my opinion. YMMV.

Folks, like it or not (and I do not), the law of the land is caveat emptor (let the buyer beware - "the law now requires that goods must be of "merchantable quality". However, this implied warranty can be difficult to enforce, and may not apply to all products. Hence, buyers are still advised to be cautious.").

Personally I don't understand why the law of the land isn't "seller beware," but that's just the way it is.

Somehow in a thread about cables you managed to bring an attack on religion into the discussion, followed by a proposal for Government to right the wrongs perpetuated by cable manufacturers of all people. I don't know how old you are but I'd guess in about 20 years you're going to wonder where you came up with such nonsense.

Here's an extract from the ad for the wire I use for my speakers.

This audiophile grade speaker cable features 99.9% pure copper wire. A high strand count improves skin effect and provides maximum conductivity. Flexible jacket eliminates kinking and makes in-wall installation simple and hassle free. UL approved, CL-3 rating. Made in the U.S.A.

If someone wants me to make up a couple of pairs of 10' connectors for $7,000.00 I'd be glad to.

At what I paid for the cable that would come to $7.78 parts $6,922.22 labor.
Sounds fair to me, I'll even throw in free shipping !

Not that this really should be a thread about god and government, but ...
Well, given how well done your previous post was, I'm sure if you think a little harder you'd see. "Buyer beware" houses, cars, medicine? Not really the best way for markets to work.

I wasn't looking at it as a life or death situation but more like unsupported claims. To my mind, I lump them in with a lot of things and services that are sold today.
Often times, the purpose for having an uber-expensive line of cables is not so much that they'll be best sellers (although rumour has it that each year a Las Vegas, the cable mongers get together and award prizes for who sold the most expensive cable) as that you can have 80% or whatever of the performance of a tenth of the price.

I'm sorry, but I'm not understanding your point. If I think a little harder I'll see what?


If I understand you correctly, I believe that was exactly my point when I said "Folks, like it or not (and I do not), the law of the land is caveat emptor (let the buyer beware -.........Personally I don't understand why the law of the land isn't "seller beware."

Thank-you, you added the most important words to this entire debate: "in my opinion" & "to me". If some others would adopt the same philosophy and quit trying to ram their own beliefs down more open minded individuals throats, regardless of the "proof" they claim to possess, we'd avoid these ridiculous arguments.

Point taken, and I agree. It simply might have been wiser to have chosen an analogy that didn't permit us to infer that you were putting audio system performance on an equal footing with human life.

When this debate comes up I tend to focus on the video side since it is easier to tell differences than the audio side, which is much more subjective. With that I have to say if you can't tell the difference between say for example a Canare component cable, and a cheap budget component cable, then you have poor eyesight. Cables do make a difference up to a point, what lies beyond that point or what that point actually may be is for the people who can afford these sorts of things to find out.

Everyone else should just move along and not bother themselves with the logic of the wealthy. Your $50 investment in a set of speaker cables may be the same to you as their $7000 investment is to them when put in perspective. They seek out what can be resonably described as "the best" in much of what they posess, and if they have no logical explanation as to why it is so, they can simply fall back on what they paid for said item when asked. It's sad but true.

I heartily agree that if we all made a greater effort to express our opinions as opinions rather than as hard fact, it would go a long way toward avoiding the often silly, and useless arguing we do. I would also add that, if we could avoid suggesting that anyone who holds a differing opinion is ignorant, a fool, an idiot, insane, retarded, drugged, or not a real man, we likely could avoid even more of the arguing.

However, I have a little problem with the "regardless of the 'proof'" part of your statement. To the best of my knowledge, there is no scientifically accepted proof that expensive speaker cables will cause a sound system to sound different than properly constructed less expensive cables. If I am mistaken, I will most heartily listen to any scientifically accepted proof one can offer.

On the other hand, there exists what, IMHO, constitutes a body of scientifically accepted proof which indicates that expensive speaker cables will provide little audible difference (I have no intention of searching for them, but, if you are interested enough, you could do a google search on "speaker wire" and easily find them. You might begin with the oft quoted and linked Roger Russel Study).

To my mind, this qualifies this side of the disagreement as currently accepted fact, while the opposing argument can only be considered opinion based on anecdotal experience. YMMV. (I accept the premise that science can be fallible, and does make mistakes. When this is shown to be a mistake, I will happily revise my position)

So, until there is scientifically acceptable "proof" to the contrary, I choose to accept the "proof" we do have, which indicates there is little audio performance to be gained by spending inordinately large amounts of money on speaker cables. And, if some wish to recommend, advise, suggest that others spend their money on expensive cables, I would think it incumbent on them to either cite their evidence, or make it clear that none exists, and they are merely expressing an opinion which, I may add, they have every right to express.

i had just typed up a big long post and lost it, but rijax expresses basically what i was going to say...

the burden of proof resides upon the "hear a difference" crowd... unless they preface with "in my opinion, and i have no proof for this...", i believe that they are misleading those who are "new" to the subject...

i believe in science... i don't believe in "unmeasurable differences"... the "don't hear a difference" crowd has science and tests on their side... the "hear a difference" crowd has "faith"... that's not an "even" distribution there...

i'm not saying i don't think that "psychoacoustics" is a "bad" thing, and that if someone "thinks" something sounds better, then imo, to them it DOES sound better... the mind/brain is a very powerful thing... but i am saying that, in my opinion without any science or tests to back it up, that the "hear a difference crowd" needs to be more careful about how they express their opinions (i.e. using cable a over cable b is a 'night and day' difference)...

ymmv... i consider my mind to be open, but evidence has to be presented in order for me to make a decision... i don't think that any position (regardless of the objects in question) can be held as valid if you preface it with regardless of the evidence...

I thought among speaker cables there are measureable differences in capacitance and indunctance.

The question being if these differences are audible.

FWIW, I use Canare 4S11 cable, put on the bananas myself, and a nice jacket. Been using them for almost 4 years now.

I am no scientist, but I'm pretty sure of this. Speaker cable is a passive means to conduct electricity. Based on that, they cannot add anything to the signal, only remove something from the signal.

So, can a speaker cable sound different, yes, because it can remove parts
of the signal.

Can a speaker cable sound better, well technically, no. Because it is changing the signal from the amp to the speaker. The perfect speaker cable would deliver the exact same signal from the amp to the speaker.

So I guess if you want to advertise a cable that removes less signal than anybody else's, that would be a true statement.

I'm just interested in advertising and cons in a general sense Rijax. I don't know enough about the Pear line compared say to HD 12 gauge or various monster brands with respect to their R, L, and C values but if they're different enough, I can envision a scenario where one might be able to differentiate amongst them in a blind comparison.

Lamp cord (and most other wire) inductance and capacitance is several orders of magnitude lower than the speaker itself. It's hard to even measure the difference.

The reason why selling apricot pits as a cure for cancer is against the law now is because it is fraud and people die. I suppose the reason why it's still legal to sell $100+/ft cables on the claim that they dramatically improve sound is because no one dies...

The rest, however...is still the same.

True....but the speaker is designed with those elements. The capacitance and inductance in the speaker cable is a change to the signal before it gets to the speaker.

Agreed, it is hard to measure, but IT IS measureable. Does it make an audible difference? That is the million dollar question.

And the answer is no.