Official Axiom Owner's Thread - Page 40

Trust me, as an engineering major, I know what DBT is about. And the null hypothesis article is only interesting in a pedantic sense. What I'm talking about is the bias people bring to the table. If item X is $10,000 it *has* to be better than something that costs $100. And your brain will convince you that's the case. This is the bias that has to taken out of speaker tests.

If you don't believe that's the case, read some of the reviews of the $10,000 power and speaker cables. These idiots are convinced that the sound is better just because they replaced a power cord. These are other wise normal people who spout such garbage. Again, I would say it's because they paid $$$$ for it.

Do I believe $10,000 speakers are better? Probably. Mechanically speaking, I can see how using superior parts can lead to better sound. But the question is, is it worth the extra $8900? I guess that's the real question that we'll never settle on an online forum.

At the end, superior sound is in the eye of the beholder. One person can be perfectly happy with mp3 being played on Iphone buds while others *have* to have calibrated sound coming from SACD. To each his own, I say.

I know that a true dbt is not a 30th anniversary get together of axiom owners comparing their bookshelf vs another more expensive bookself and the axiom won the dbt. Go figure. You would also think a company that is so into dbt that they might have more speakers to do dbt's then just 1 lonely bookshelf speaker of another brand. when I was first thinking of a secondary system and had ordered an axiom bookshelf and compared it to the studio 20, I was not looking for the studio to win, I was looking for the truth. I knew the claims by axiom owners that they compare with the studio's. If they had sounded as good, I would have been happy as building a second system for less would have been great. Sadly they did not sound as good as the studio's. The difference in price was worth it for studio's as they sounded that much better. Doesn't mean axiom speakers suck as there are many happy owners of them. Generally speaking, as you move up the chain in price you will get a better built, better braced, better drivers, better crossover and better sound. Sound wise If a company says that after the $1500 mark the improvements become more aesthetics, that would tell me that they are just not as interested in trying to improve their product as much as I would hope for as a consumer. If someone thinks that a $1500 speaker sounds as good as a $9800 speaker then great. Enjoy them!!

Hi John1400,
Paradigm is a very good Canadian speaker manufacturer offering very good speakers as you and many others well know. I'm not surprised that the Paradigm Studio 20 sounded better to your ears than an Axiom bookshelf model. You made a very wise move auditioning both models. Axiom does not offer a model in its bookshelf line which is the equivalent to the Studio 20. The Paradigm Studio 20 has more bass and output which will translate to a noticeable different sound presentation. For most listeners, it will be perceived at offering a richer and fuller sound. The Axiom M2v3 or the M3v3 would have been a closer match-up to the Paradigm Studio 10.

The difference between them has nothing to do with their construction, number of braces or crossover. Their conception, parts and construction were dictated to meet their designer's goals. The most important is that you found within your budget allowance a speaker which meets your expectations, you like and enjoy.

Hi hansangb,
I was very doubtful about the value and pertinence of DBT or even SBT until I experienced one. It changed my opinion for ever. And it is the case for the vast majority of people who experienced one.

I don't care if someone assures me that he can remain objective; I'm convinced that it is impossible. Once, I repeated the same comparison that I had previously did, blind. The only new information was that I could see the speakers being compared. They were physically identical but because I could see them I seem to be able to find more differences between them. The reason turns out that, once the large black cloth removed, I could visually fix a characteristic to a speaker.

DBT does not lie and can be brutal, destroying illusions and myths; it could be called Snake Oil Buster.

Here is an old example - http://www.matrixhifi.com/ENG_contenedor_ppec.htm

Again Axiom doesn't like true DBTs bjcays. Axiom was pissed off at the results of the Audioholics $1k shootout, Audioholics listed all the biases something that Axiom has never done NOT ONCE. In a true DBT not controlled by Axiom, their speakers are middle of the pack not great but not bad just. Axiom wants their speakers to win no matter what and they cheat and market their way to a good performance. Like having only Axiom employees and Axiom owners in their DBTs. How about they invite respectable people in the industry to participate in their DBTs?????? Why because Axiom speakers stand a chance of not getting a 9/10 score for perfered speakers thats why.

There are situations when even in controlled environment such as you've described, the objectivity or relevance of the results can cause an eye to be raised.

If the person or persons are doing something like a speaker comparison in an anechoic chamber are also long standing users of that company's product(s), they are rather intimately familiar with its sonic characteristics. One might even say they are biased or have a predisposition to it. Hence, even though they're doing a blind comparison, it can be pretty easy to pick out which one is theirs.

Without additional information from a company about their blind tests such as

• how many participants
• where were the participants culled from
• were the participants trained (see for example Sean Olive's blog on audio training)
• number of trials compared to number of 'hits'

the term DBT may be nothing than a sham.



Apart from what I said above, I too used to link to matrixhifi's results. I stopped when a person from that group posted in I believe the CD section of this website. He stated that many of these people were friends and had family. They would get together for some occasion and invariably the men would head off to do their blind testing. Unfortunately, everyone else - kids, wives, girlfriends, dogs - would be outside or in another room. They weren't silent either. That person noted how the ambient noise floor in the room where they did their evaluations was significantly impacted by the noise outside. As a result, many of their evaluations were compromised so if there were subtleties, they could have been compromised by the environment they were in.

While I suspect that many of their conclusions may well be correct, based upon what that person said, one needs to append a big old asterisk and a disclaimer.

Generally speaking we all have a budget, so we look in the price range of what we are willing to spend. We compare speakers around the same price range and listen to a few. When I listened to my studio's I compared them side by side to monitor audio. In many cases it comes down to personal perference. I thought the paradigm and monitor audio both sounded excellant and at that point it really becomes personal perference. Maybe I pick paradigm, neighbor picks monitor, guy across the street picks B&W and the guy on the corner picks bose. (sorry, had to add that) I also think it would be fun to do blind listening tests but we must remember that we all are here for the same reason, We love home theatre, music and of course our speakers. Its a great hobby!!

You can make subjective comments about why you don't like Axiom speakers. To each his own. But when you manufacture lies, it really does make you look stupid. I have some advice for you. When you're in a hole trying to get out, put down the shovel and stop digging. Ian addressed your point DIRECTLY on Axiom's forum. Let me guess, you work for a newspaper, am I right? Just make stuff up and print it, after all, who's going to know, right?

Please don't count me as an Axiom fanboy who feels the need to defend "his Axiom". After all, I'm the one that said most people wouldn't be able to tell the difference between one speaker or another. Let alone AVRs, or DACs.


Anyone know if killfile is available on AVS Forum?

Subjective??? Really???? Its not my opinion that Axiom doesn't list biases. Its not my opinion that Axiom doesn't list where they get the subjects who do the listening. Its not my opinion. Those are all FACTS not subjective opinions. Ian direct addressed the point about the EP400 have a near 90degree vertical drop off at 20hrz which is a sign of a "brickwall" type filter. That was corrected in the current EP400 or so he says and showed a freq response to it and we moved on and nothing was brought up about it. Also discussed the M60s midrange breaking up at high freq, he posted a graph of the midrange but he only showed up to 2k response, and shows no break up its only after the 2k that the midrange begins to break up, but Ian isn't going to show that.

No I don't work for a newspaper. And why can't anyone show proof instead of anything when I make a point they, all I get is childish nonsense.

Hi gtpsuper24,
It is quite obvious that you don't like Axiom speakers and, most importantly, that you don't want anyone else to like them. The problem is that you have limited experience with a few models which, by the way, pleased you for a full year. Then after reading some negative opinions on them (ignoring the overwhelming positive ones) on Forums (which we all know are tinted) you slowly changed your mind about them. That is your right and no one will blame you for it.

What puzzles me is that you pass judgement on models you never heard based on opinions from others. Furthermore, you estimate their opinions at being the ultimate truth worth using them and/your interpretation of them to spread discredit on Axiom products.

To my knowledge there is only a single blind test held by a third party (AudioHolics) which includes a single Axiom product (M60). Axiom questioned the environment under which it was held; it certainly did not meet the criteria set by Chu Gai (a few posts above). Your comment was that: In a true DBT not controlled by Axiom, their speakers are middle of the pack not great but not bad just. So what true DBT are you referring to and how many Axiom speakers were involved?

Also on the same subject of the AudioHolics M60 test; Ian Colquhoun from Axiom who designed the M60 model answered you personally but again you try to discredit his explanation:
I thought I should address the comment by gtpsuper about the M60 5.25 mid-woofer breaking up at high output levels due to there being no high pass crossover used on this component. I don't believe that gtpsuper has any first-hand experience with this, please accept my apologies if this summation is inaccurate, but rather I think he is regurgitating a comment originally made by Gene at Audioholics. Anyway, in light of this comment I ran a few measurements on the M60 5.25 mid-woofer (graphs below). As can be seen from the graphs there is no compression occurring nor is there any undue rise in harmonic distortion from this component taking the M60 all the way up to 110 dB through the frequency range in question. Going much above these levels would only start to strain the tweeter. The 5.25 mid-woofer is in its own very small enclosure inside the M60 cabinet. There is no need for a high pass crossover on this component: in fact it would be detrimental to the performance of an M60. The limiting factor to the maximum output of an M60 is not in any way related to the 5.25 mid-woofer. It is the single tweeter that will be the first component to show signs of strain as you near the maximum output of the M60. This is the case with most loudspeakers on the market: the single tweeter is the limiting factor.

http://www.axiomaudio.com/boards/ubb...=363327&page=4

I wonder why you don't move on and save the last bit of credibility you might have left ?
May be you should follow Gene's example from AudioHolics:
This constant back and forth between us, forum members and Axiom isn't productive for anyone involved. I honestly don't have it in my heart to sustain negative energy like this. I myself am to blame because I allowed it to progress on this forum rather than objectively removing or stopping the threads just like I would have done for any other manufacturer. For that, I apologize to Axiom.
http://forums.audioholics.com/forums...aceoff-21.html

Hi Chu Gai,
I agree with you that even for DBT there are situations where some elements might possibly influence the outcome. If your requirements are that strict for DBT what are they for listening tests where you see and have the data on the speakers being compared ? Am I wrong at thinking that it makes them totally unreliable ?

Even if they might do it occasionally, my guess is that speaker manufacturers which carry DBT or SBT use them not to compare their speakers to the competition but to evaluate modifications/improvements on their own products.

I thank you for informing me of the flaws of the MATRIX Hi-Fi listening test which I was referring to; I was not aware of it. But I'm convinced that under identical conditions if the participants had seen what they were listening to the outcome would have been different. On the other hand, if the conditions would have been perfect, the results might have remained the same.

All this leads me to think that honest DBT or SBT even with possible weaknesses are by far the most credible and reliable ones.

I don't think they're all that strict for DBT. IMO, if you're willing to invest in an anechoic chamber with rotating speakers and all that good stuff, it makes sense to also invest in a testing protocol that allows you to get good data out.

I'm not sure what you're looking to address with sighted tests. It's such a broad topic. Maybe we can narrow it down somewhat. Without getting too long winded, I don't think they're entirely unreliable. If you already know in a general sense what brands you like, you might consider paying more attention to long standing reviewers who so happen to share your personal sentiments for ideas.


Maybe for some but I know of companies that manufacture speakers and also have an active competitor product analysis program. This of course is applicable to any sort of company that wants to know what others are doing. Never know when you're going to spot an innovation that you overlooked. Maybe a way of making a driver using different sorts of materials that you can knock off cheaper than the other guy.


When I have some time, I'll look for the exact post where this was brought up. I tell you reading what that guy wrote just floored me.


Sure and it's not so hard to remove some of the weaknesses.

As an Axiom owner i was kinda upset to read a massive thread about a guy trying to upgrade his Axiom M33s and the person going to upgrade the crossovers refused to do so because he said the Axioms were essentially garbage. So i thought id put my opinions of my setup on here. I had originally purchased the Klipsch RF 82's and their RC 62 for my front stage and another cheaper Klipsch set for the surrounds. I LOVED the soundstage that the RC62 delivered. I still pine over it. But ulimately the highs of the 82's fatigued my ears so bad after about 30-40 minutes that i'd start to get a migraine. After returning them i thought Id review some others. I auditioned the Paradigm Studio line and found them lacking in the mids but the lows and highs were great. Then I auditioned a full set of PBLs. I cant remember the type but it was their mid line series. They sounded good if you cranked the volume but the 3 front speakers would run me $5000. I also auditioned the Energy RC line and they were ambit more than i was willing to pay. I then heard of Axiom and read all the reviews i could find. I ordered the M60's V.2, VP 150, and the QS8's.
I was really underwhelmed with the 150 at first. It lacked that depth that the klipsch center pumped out and the really crisp clear details. That being said, I moved my sub to the front to fill out and add that depth i was missing and played around with my AVR to tweak the center speaker. It now sounds phenominal and natural ! I have nothing but praise for Axiom speakers and the cost was justified in my eyes. They sounded better than the Paradigms to my ears, and on par with the PBLs and Energy but at a lower cost. If I move into a bigger house and a bigger HT room i will upgrade the center to either the new Axiom 160/180 or the Klipsch RC 64.

In the case of Newform Research, a single person's campaign practically killed the brand or at least the passion of the owner. Newform used to be the current Salk or Ascend with the owner/designer taking an active part in helping each buyer with their decisions etc etc... But that one in particular seems to be a specific effort to kill a fast growing biz competition. It's really too bad as their speakers while ain't perfect overall beats many top stuff out there. And I mean ultra mega bucks famous models praised both here and paper mags.

http://www.newformresearch.com/smear.htm

Not sure about Axiom's smear case, it could've been due to their own PR or whatever but I have zero interest in that. Anyone could have made 100's of personas and screen names then go around talking **** about a brand or product. Frankly, pro mags reviews ain't helpful either as most of their recommended stuff didn't sound good to my ears.

Anyway, what I want to know is whether the specs of the M50 are accurate and honest. The freq response graph is useless as it's smoothed and varied. If so, they have a winner product for cheap reference level HT that can still play music without bleeding my ears. Practically the only non-horn or pro model that plays 105dB using less than 200 watt...

Did your mother not give enough attention as a child? Were you picked on in school?
Jesus, it's JUST SPEAKERS.
Who cares what the manufacturer says about their own product, why would they say anything different than they believe they make the best product.
Buy if you don't like them send them back it's that easy.

Thanks for that post, it is right on point.
I have come across the same thing when it comes to my TV which is a Mitsubishi WD-92840 DLP, and the hate spewed forth on forums for DLP sets is incredible.

Thanks again.

We've heard for years from Axiom that the M80 is as good as it gets. Ian has stated multiple times that you can't make a better speaker than the $1500 range. Everything above that is just cosmetics. M80s are giant killers it sounds just as good as speakers costing 2x-3x-4x as much. Why make a speaker that costs double the price?

Some one on the bluray forum listened to the Axiom LFR 100 at the Salon Show and said they sound just like the M80s with just more head room, and he said fit and finished was bad for such a high end expensive speaker.




Many people suffer from rainbow effects from DLP and some plamas. Especially if you were glasses it can amplify the effects. Some DLPs and Plasmas I've seen, I see bright yellow or greenish color flashes and its very bad and causes eye strain.

I though this was really funny. Going at more expensive speakers and trashing them on the Axiom forum.

"As to the Paradigm Studio 60s, they certainly aren't "better". They will likely have a slightly different tonal signature and the usual Paradigm bass hump, which will make them sound "warmer" at first, then that "warm" hump will get annoying with long-term listening. The Axiom M60s and M80s are more neutral through that bass region and are free of that "warm" coloration.

Regards,
Alan"

Of course they won't show a proper graph of the M60 or M80s they use a 120db scale and smooth it out to make it look "better" than what it really is. Maybe if they wasn't so afraid they would let 3rd reviews measure their speakers using industry excepted standards. Since they are so confident in their products and make false claims about other well liked brands without backing anything up. Paradigm has always been described as neutral not bass hump warm. I though Axiom always followed Paradigm in offering the Paradigm neutral sound in a cheaper package. Alan is one of the last people I would listen too, to tell me what a speaker sounds like, he is almost completely deaf but he's the one that does Axiom listening tests.

Are you serious? Do you have honestly have nothing better to with your time than contradict every positive post you read.
Do everyone a favor and come out of that basement, go out into the daylight, find something constructive to do instead of spending all your time posting the most negative comments you can find.
State an opinion or a preference and "MOVE ON".

Everyone here seems to be just fighting over opinions not actual measured specs. I guess I won't be getting an answer to my question regarding the M50. Maybe that's how this brand is being run, like a cult with hype and all. Oh well, crossing Axiom from future shopping list...

'
When a company, any company, says something they sell is the best, I think it's a mistake to take it as gospel. Best is often just hyperbole and advertising spiel. After all, didn't Snapple have a TV campaign where they touted some new discoveries as better than best? What about when Audi did that (stupid) billboard campaign where they had a picture of one of their cars and it said, "Your move BMW." BMW comes back with a picture of their car on a billboard right next to Audi and they have just one word, "Checkmate."

So if'n Ian or Joe or whomever says its the best, it's just not worth looking to counter it. It's just an overused dverisiing term.


With all due respect, I hope that this someone is capable of greater literary ability otherwise it's like going into a Boston bar and hearing the Yankees suck.

I moved on and you decide to take a jab at me for a post made almost a month ago . Just like an Axiom fanboy over there on the Axiom forum, digging up 4 month old posts of mine and insert their childish immature remarks.

I'm done with this Axiom stuff, Keep taking jabs and snide little comments and I can keep responing. Quite bringing up old quotes from a month ago and move on too.

I don't know of other manufacturers who make claims of true DBT, but what makes the situation silly with Axiom is that they claim they are using DBT's, when the fact that it automatically makes it, at best, single blind when their employees carry out the test. In DBT, the individuals who carry out the test cannot know what they are testing for. That is part of what makes it blind.

But this has been gone over so many times. Gene at Audioholics made light of this issue in another thread. It's just silly, and if Axiom is still making these claims of DBT protocol, it just (IMO) drags their credibility down even further. There's nothing wrong with a company stating that they do their own private comparisons of their speakers versus the competition, but they devalue their reputation and the scientific standards of double-blind protocols by claiming that they're carrying out a DBT. There's just no debate on this particular topic at all (scanning back through the previous posts) and I'm surprised that this is still being discussed.

That's only the tip of the iceberg in Axiom's claims about numerous issues with their speakers and the engineering issues and problems.

Veda,
why don't you ask the folks at Axiom? If Axiom is still in business after all these years, they must be selling product right? The fact that gtgrouper has a vendetta is his problem. Just remember that speaker preference is mostly preference. That's why two people can't agree on "what's better" That, in turn, leads to warfare worst than "Windows is better than Mac is better than Linux is better than Windows" debate. People act like their speakers define who they are.... I understand passion, but these over the top reviews and personal vendetta is something I never understood.

I paid a decent money for my Axioms and I really like them. But if you came in the middle of the night and swapped them for Paradigms, I may or may not notice the difference. I doubt many can - contrary to what most may believe.

But... the Yankees DO suck...

Ummmmmmm.........you posted silly/attacking posts earlier today....that is what he quoted. Maybe you do need to crawl out of that basement after all....

This is the post he quoted me. I made that post on 3/04/12 21 days ago although rustolemite for some reason decided to go back 2 or 3 pages to get that quote and start this all over again. My last post since he decided to take a jab was 3/09/12. Almost 2 weeks ago. Maybe do alittle research in whats actually going on before you make stupid posts.

I do stand corrected.....but I have to ask......Which month has 21 days or 14 days in it??

Anyway, I don't own Axiom speakers.....probably wont be buying them either. I do like to visit all of the "official speaker threads" to hear owners experiences with them. I like to hear positive and negative reviews....especially with ID speakers as there is no way to audition them. Seriously though bud.....read all of your posts that you write about Axiom speakers......they are SOOOO obnoxious....it's almost getting silly. Plus you repeat THE SAME THING all of the time. OK....we know your opinion about their marketing.....and their lack of 'real' testing..... I think it's time to move on now. Every speaker thread seems to have the creepy resident negative dude.....you really take the cake though.... Ask yourself.... do you really want that reputation??