Official Axiom Owner's Thread - Page 45

About a month ago, I had Jeff Meier (accucalhd.com) come by my house on his Southeast tour and cal my Panasonic 65VT25 plasma. When he was done with it, we moved on to the audio system. I figured...piece of cake, we will be done in an hour or so. As did he. Well...this has turned into a month long ordeal, culminating with me sending my speakers back to Axiom to be "repaired" under warranty. Here is what I have...all of these were purchased in late 2007 and have had minimal to average use (not used every day by any means).

Pair of Axiom M60 Towers
W150 On Wall/In Wall Center Speaker
Pair of QS2 Surrounds

We spent a couple hours trying to figure out what was going on with my Axiom speakers. Jeff (an unbelievably talented and smart guy) could not understand or figure out what he was seeing...and he was utilizing tens of thousands of dollars worth of test equipment. Please keep in mind that I am no audiophile, so these issues have likely been prevalent since I bought them, but I never noticed it. Here are Jeff's comments.

"M60 Tower Speakers - The left and right channel speakers have about a 10db drop at around 200Hz.
W150 Center Channel - There is a large error in the high frequency performance of the center channel speaker. The tweeters are down about 15db from the nominal level at 500Hz..

These levels of error are outside of the Onkyo receivers ability to correct in either manual or with Audyssey at anywhere near correct frequency response."

It was obvious after we started digging into it that the center speaker just sounded muffled...almost like someone had a pillow over it!!! He couldn't believe how bad these three speakers performed on his tests and his recommendation was for me to send them to Axiom for repair.

Axiom agreed to repair them (even though they were 6 months past the five year warranty). I've now been without my speakers for over 3 weeks and of course, haven't been able to watch TV on my Panasonic as a result of not having a front sound stage.

I got the emails from Axiom last night with their "sweeps" of both my two towers, and the center channel. According to them, the towers tested "perfectly." The W150 had a bad tweeter, but Jeff insists that one tweeter would not have caused the horrible performance we measured in my basement. The "sweep" on the W150 after the tweeter was replaced also looked "perfect" according to Axiom.

So....what should I do guys? Do you have any recommendations or experience with Axiom's products? I have to wonder if my speakers had major issues, but Axiom isn't telling me the whole story as to not ruin their name brand. I have not gotten them back yet (they won't ship until tomorrow) so it will be a week before I can hook them back up and see how they sound and run Audyssey again to see how it does.

I'm really p*ssed because I spent nearly $2,000 in 2007 on these Axioms and my HSU Research sub (which I love). Any help or guidance would be greatly appreciated. I have all the plots/sweeps if someone would like to see them. Thanks in advance!

LSU:

As I've suggested in your other thread in the forum, please go over to the Axiom Forum at their website & join up. You will find much better conversation, advise & knowledge ref your setup than you will here...

TAM
Edited by ex-labdriver - 2/13/13 at 10:26pm

While I cannot comment on your particular circumstance (though I do agree with cybrsage's statements), I do know that being an owner of numerous different Axioms setups, they have always been completely upfront and honest with me. I have no reason to believe they wouldn't treat every customer the same way.

Have you called and talked with someone over there and made them aware of your concerns? I'm sure they would be happy to discuss it with you. I know with my own testing, while not perfect, have tested better than it sounds yours did.

Yes, they seem to have been open, honest, and upfront during several conversations and emails. However, their plots show no problems (other than the blown tweeter that was replaced in the center) at all. As I stated previously, Jeff said the night of the TV/Audio cal and in subsequent emails that there are "major issues" with my speakers (M60s and the Center) and that he did not see any way that it could be merely one tweeter bad in the Center. Again...the tweeters were BOTH working in my center on the night Jeff ran his tests. I guess one failed during shipment? Who knows...Jeff's recommendation is to sell them and get rid of them.

Jeff Meier is a freaking genius, and I trust his opinion (if you haven't had him cal your high end HDTV...it is well worth the money). He was in my theater room (so that takes room dynamics into account) and he had never seen such poor performance, in particular the center speaker. He tried speaker placement with no success.

I hope Axiom didn't find an issue and is just telling me "all is ok" to protect their brand name. I will never have any way of kowing but kudos to them for working on them when I was six months past my 5 year warranty.

As stated in another thread, we are likely buying another house next year and I've already gotten clearance from my wife (awesome) to leave these in the basement to and help with the sale of the house....and then I can buy a new setup for the new house.

Thanks for the feedback here guys. I see no reason to join the "sunshine pumping club" over at Axiom.com where I doubt any real issues/problems are addressed.

Well LSU, it is your loss not to tap into the wealth of brand knowledge over there that is presented mostly in a mature, pragmatic & friendly manner.

I live on the west coast - ain't no sunshine here so I don't have any to pump, ha!!

BTW, despite what is often posted here, the vast majority of people have no issues with the sound & operation of their 150s. As with all kinds of speakers, most like them just fine - just like you did for 5 years.

Good luck with your quest.

Cheers...

TAM

I enjoy the research so that doesn't bother me at all.

Hello, would M3v3 do in my living room 13ftx26ft without a sub? i play on an old Technics SU-A700 receiver. i heard once a set B&W685 on my set which i liked very much; Will these M3v3's overclass the 685's? I've read an article they overclass B&W805, but is that really tru?

thx

Johan:

As I posted to your question over at the Axiom forum:

I have 3 sets of Axioms in use in my house.

One set is M3V3s on Axiom stands in one of my audio only systems. They sound just fine & really don't need a sub for most music as their bass extension is very good for a bookshelf speaker.

Excellent performers for the price...


My room is similar to yours in size - quite large & open. I'm easily able to fill the room to uncomfortable sound levels with a low end Sony 90 W/Ch receiver..

How much more encouragement do you need?

TAM

Johan:

If you want some recent reviews of Axioms from a guy who I think is very pragmatic & trustworthy. Please go here:

http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/speaker-subwoofer-reviews/62881-axiom-lfr1100-omni-directional-speaker.html

http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/speaker-subwoofer-reviews/45768-axiom-epic-80-speaker-review.html

http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/speaker-subwoofer-reviews/56820-axiom-grand-master-5-2-home-theater-system-review.html

http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/speaker-subwoofer-reviews/35847-axiom-m3-v3-wall-speaker-review.html

There are Discussion Forums that follow each review are also available to read.

Note that the M3v3 review is for the 'On Wall' version & therefore is a bit compromise in design...

TAM

I would suspect some of what you're reading over at the Axiom forum is good advice that you'll have to decipher ...there is enough information out there good & bad....I'd say listen for yourself and compare in house if you really want to know.
Edited by Billy p - 3/14/13 at 12:30pm

Just to give Johan varying opinions good an bad instead of just good praises. I think it should also be said that Dale Rasco who gives positive reviews of everything Axiom, received discounts on all his Axiom stuff. He once told me that at the discount he received the EP800 its a good deal but theres MUCH better options in its price range.

http://www.epinions.com/review/pr-Axiom_Audio_Millennia_M3ti_Main_Stereo_Speaker/content_385190825604?sb=1

"The 6” woofer has a pretty choppy frequency response above the specified “crossover” point including a peak at 5 KHz. This driver definitely needed to have a crossover! Non linear distortion in the 6” driver is significant, and the very thin metal used to make the basket rings. Holding the driver by the magnet and sweeping it with a tone generator you can actually hear the frame ringing! This is terrible!

was shocked when I opened it up and found nothing inside but a couple resistors and a $0.10 electrolytic cap and another little poly cap. What was all that talk about all this design work??? It appears they are trying to become the new Bose, a lot of talk about engineering and research but nothing to back it up!
"

http://techtalk.parts-express.com/showthread.php?206782-Axiom-Has-anyone-seen-this&highlight=axiom
"the motivation behind all this axiom stuff is crystal clear

you buy chinese drivers at 2 dollars a piece and instead of building a speaker out of 2 drivers you build it out of 8. that way people can think they are getting a more "advanced" product

when i was young and stup1d i would try to figure out the logic behind designs like this and it is only with the help of my friend that i finally understood that there simply isn't any

they're not in business of outsmarting physics. they're in the business of outsmarting their customers"

The M3 was designed to have a bass hump at 100hrz to give you the impression of bass, but its not subwoofer bass. Extension will fall off fairly quick under 60hrz which is really midbass. Running them full range just drives up the THD. Alan Loft once said Paradigm designs there speakers with an annoying midbass hump that becomes fatiquing. But this is the same design Axiom uses and its touted as a classy pleasant sounding speaker. Talking out both ends as usual.





Top is Axioms. Bottom is Ascend. Notice the difference. Axiom uses the same kind of Xover design Sony uses in their $50 Best Buy bookshelfs. Ascend squeezes every last bit out of the crossover design. Good example of you get what you pay for. One is from a marketing company the other is from an Engineering company. One lets the product speaker for its self, the other markets there stuff to death as great engineering with nothing to back it up.
Edited by gtpsuper24 - 3/14/13 at 12:19pm

Johan:

I'm not sure if the axiom forum members disclosed to you that you do have to pay return shipping if you don't like them and I believe your in Belgium.
You might want to check to see how much that is before you make a purchase.

"To members of this forum anyway, I would suspect that from that point on, the credibility of AVS is, at best, "questionable".
I read this quote on the axiom forum which I believe was really about audioholics, but I still get the feeling that they do not care for the avs crowd.

I still find it funny that at a 30th anniversary bash for axiom, that their speaker beat out a more expensive B&W speaker, no bias there.

Hey John, I bet that if the tables was turned and B&W or any other brand, compared there speakers with an Axiom speaker and the Axiom lost the Axiomites would throw a fit and cry foul. Wait a minute they did!!! The Audioholics 1K tower shootout had a blind test involved where everyone posted there listening habits, biases, ect.... (which Axiom does not do, we have no idea of what goes on other than just trust us and buy our speakers) And from what i've read Ian was very displeased about the results since it wasn't something he could market and plaster all over the audio forums.

I notice how they bash Audioholics and AVS but yet parade around the positive reviews from Audioholics at the same time. I've yet to see the Axiom guys recommend other products that might suit a poster better than a current Axiom product, like what you see here at AVS. Its always pushing Axiom regardless of whats best for the poster. Its like they are playing a game to see who can sell the most Axiom speakers to the next person who posts.

I would add that Axioms forum members are questionable at best. Not very reliable to give an unbiased answer.
Edited by gtpsuper24 - 3/14/13 at 11:41am

Like clockwork, the bashing continues from a guy who absolutely loved his wonderful Axioms for several years, then grew tired of them & spends the next couple of years slagging this reputable company at every opportunity. Strange set of values with zero credibility in an Axiom thread.

If one reads the forums at HTS, you will find that the owner of those forums (whom GTP now admires due to his fine review of the Arx) has admonished GTP several times in several threads for his ongoing bashing & spreading his highly negative, subjective misinformation on Axiom. He actually used the term 'slanderous'. (LFR100 thread, post #27). It's too bad that AVS wouldn't do the same here.

Now., some real facts - Axiom builds their own drivers in their own factory in Asia under close scrutiny of an Axiom specialist from the home factory that is continually based there on site on a rotating basis. Their sub drivers are built over here.

Johan, while I believe that the M3s would work wonderfully for you as they do for me, perhaps it would be best for you to purchase speakers in Europe (lots of fine ones there as you know) as there will be a lot less hassle in shipping, warranty work, customs problems, etc...

TAM

gt

I do know when a axiom speaker does not win in a shoot out then it is probably done incorrectly, at least that's what an axiomite would say.
Only when they win, we know it was done right!!


"How much more encouragement do you need?" Sounds almost like desperation. Axiom bonus bucks?

1. Sonnie is HTS owner and he doesn't do reviews, Jim Wilson is the one who did the Arx review as well as dozens more not just for HTS but many other forums as well, NOT Dale Rasco (moderator) who has not reviewed Arx speakers. But this isn't about Arx speakers or HTS. Dale can say anything he wants, he's bought by Axiom and will earn his money shooting down anyone who questions Axioms products. Definition of a Shill. Don't you find it funny that HTS is mostly just Admins in every thread?

2. AVS wants civil open discussions (which i've never been scolded by any mods or broken, bent or stretch the rules), not sunshine pumpers (my new favorite term thx goes to LSUMatt) like you who only showup to earn your Axiom bucks and continully shill Axiom products and then disappears until the next Axiom thread pops up.

I unlike you do not live in a bubble and I reguarly get out and listen to new B&M models and have demo'd dozens of other brands in my own home to come to my conclusions. You have ZERO idea of whats really out there ID and B&M, which is totally fine but don't down play those that have as "trollers" and sladerous.When they've modeled an opinion that isn't lockstep with your narrow minded opinion.

The typical Axiomite forum response to a "what to buy thread" is (EVERY AXIOM MODEL IS PERFECT, THEY WILL ALL WORK FOR YOU, PICK ONE AND ENJOY).....walks away cashing in Axiom bucks.
Edited by gtpsuper24 - 3/14/13 at 12:43pm

Audioholics staff & pro reviews on all kinds of gear generally have fine credibility IMHO.

Just like here, some of their most vocal, amateur & childish forum members, don't...

TAM

No Axiom bucks nor deals for me - as I've told you many times, but you care not to listen. I purchase B Stock online like anyone else.

You've done your dirt here again, now please go back to your Arx thread & leave us alone...

TAM
Edited by ex-labdriver - 3/14/13 at 1:55pm

Yes ignore me. Everyone should only listen to the sunshine pumpers and ignore all conversations about build quality, engineering, competition comparisons, ect.... Only listen to the ones that tout them as super duper awesome unbeatable bang for the buck. You should never ever question the engineering/design practices of a company that claims to be engineering and design company first and foremost. The best thing for the poster is extremely one sided biased opinions only. Discard all other opinions.

Can anyone tell me where the 30yrs of excellence is in that Axiom Xover picture? I can't see to find anything a competent engineer would design in a almost $400 bookshelf.

I have purchased 9 Axiom speakers - all B Stock (no special deals for me as you keep falsely insinuating) with 2 being wood veneer - at different times over the past year. The build quality has been absolutely exemplary on every speaker, amazing considering they are B Stock. They are virtually flawless from what I can see; however, that is not good enough for you & probably never will be.

Your ongoing fanatical obsession with this foolishness is unbecoming of someone who at times is so knowledgeable & reasonable in many facets of this pastime...

TAM

I always see ex-labdriver on here defending axiom and I must admit sometimes I feel sorry for him.
I read on the axiom forum that his blood is boiling over this.
He seems like a nice enough guy who is just defending his speakers.
I know he probably dislike somethings I,ve said in the past, but I am entitled to my opinion.


I am not here to makes someone's bloods boil and for that I apologize.
I read things about the speakers I own and it make my blood boil also, so I do understand.
Its not good when find yourself getting that mad over something like a subject like speakers and I'm talking about myself, not you.

Again I apologize as I'm not here to get someones blood to boil, and not something I would be proud of.
I hope you have a better day tomorrow.:

I must be getting old.

John1400

John:

It's definitely not you & of course everyone is entitled to their opinion; however, this childish nonsense has been going on relentlessly for close to 2 years. It has run its course of reasonable discussion & it needs to end.

After lurking for years, I came here in the fall not to defend Axiom per se, but to contribute an alternate opinion that was not being heard & to provide assistance where appropriate on any subject where I might have some expertise - limited I know!. All of the negativity directed at certain companies, much of it completely unwarranted, was often going unchallenged. That was wrong IMHO.

A couple of years ago it was a novelty, sparse & rather goodnatured at times, but why AVS allows it to go on in it present form with impunity after all this time is a mystery For me, it really diminishes the quality of this forum & the many good things that it represents...

TAM
Edited by ex-labdriver - 3/14/13 at 6:14pm

So really you joined up to challenge my opinion of Axioms? Which was developed from months and years of demoing, in home comparisons, in store demo's ect..... What have you done to form you opinion of Axioms? Have you gotten together dozens of Axioms competitiors at the same time and tried to be objective as possible in testing them out and listening? Or did you just buy Axiom and thats its no more?

Who are you to say Axiom is a great value if you've never compared or demo'd anything else out there? My opinions are not going to stop you from enjoying Axioms, unless of course you decide to try out some nice ID bookshelfs and subwoofers and then you opinion could possible change. What is it that makes pro Axiom reviews so much better than ones that are negative? So you only wanted positive reviews posted in this thread? I think the ones I posted also offer the Johan a different perspective on Axiom.

I'd love to see B&W guys jumping on you Axiom guys for trashing there speakers on the Axiom forum. I'm sure if Axioms speakers was subjected to an extremely biased "DBT" you guys would be up in arms. Hell Axiomites get pissed off if someone doesn't like the vortex ports.


It wasn't like I woke up one morning and decided to trash Axiom. But when I made a harmless comment (I though) I was called all kinds of names, belittled, and ganged up on. I can tell you it wasn't good natured from the Axiom guys. I'm not the only one who was treated that way BillyP and some others are as well.



I guess the same can be said of the M3/M50s as well, they employ the same kind of "bass hump". Also not a single one of you asked him how he came to that conclusion or to see a freq response. Just more cool aide drinkin, i'm sure thats the new way to sell Axiom over Paradigm is to say Paradigm is fatiquing bass humps.

You had your way with this for a couple of years & only rarely did anyone speak up. After a while, those that did mostly got disgusted & left. You did your job well.

Well I'm speaking up to provide actual facts & a different opinion for those who would not have access to them unless somebody does it. Remember? - sort of like when you really, really liked your Axioms way back when & eagerly posted your sentiments for all to see. Well, reluctantly I have that job now; however, being a mature, pragmatic individual, I will not come across as enthusiastic & exuberant as you once were over something that is as insignificant in the grand scheme of things as a set of speakers

You know, I just gloss over your posts now as they so repetitive, biased, nasty, & vile, so don't waste all of that effort typing them up for me. You've said it all so many times in so many places that it is frankly wearisome...

TAM

Wow, Axiom is still in business?

Yup, 30+ years.

Last year I finally retired my pair of pristine, still functioning AX2s after 20+ years of stellar service.

Amazingly they are still on their Lifetime Warranty; however, I've never needed to take them up on it, ha!!...

TAM

Nice to read this thread and see the mods cleaned up some rather unnecessary comments....

Thanks Mods...