Altered Black Levels on TX-SR875,TX-NR905,PR-SC885P, DTR 8.8, DTC 9.8 - Page 48

Not for nothing, but these receivers are a lot more complicated than those devices. However, yes, this is 2008 and Onkyo's update methods are pretty primitive.

Just got my second 8.8 (USA model):

Main Version 9 1.06/07Y26A
DSP1 07601A
DSP2 07518A
DSP3 07820B
HDMI 07706A
VIDEO 07606EI/
NET 1.01/070731z

are you having any lip sync issues as previously described by everyone else here with 1.05 firmwares and below??

See point #3 here:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...2#post12740442

Ive already read that, thanx.


Now I got one for you, read post #4297

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...84772&page=144

Does any people here has the file " DSP 07601A_07518A_07820B.wav' for the update firmware of ONKYO DSP?

Thanks


“SERVICE INFORMATION No. 5/2007
Model Date
TX SR 605 / 705 / 805 / 875 TX NR 905 - 25. October 2007

Overview about the actual FW Version's of the xx05 AV-Receiver's
The files are ready for download at ONKYO ExtraNet/Service Information/Software
At the same folder's you will find the explanation for the update.
For the new main FW you have to remove a capacitor.
Please see the next pages for more information.
With the new FW version of TX SR 875 and TX NR 905 new functions are added.”

It is now possible to adjust at HDMI Monitor Out different items at the picture quality, like Brightness, Contrast, Saturation and some more. An information sheet for the customer is also attached to the ExtraNet.”

In the root we have 4 folders and 2 PDF files:

DSP FW(Folder)
HDMI FW (Folder)
MAIN FW (Folder)
NETWORK FW (Folder)
PictureQuality 905.pdf
FW Update TXNR905.pdf

Inside DSP FW folder we have:
DSP 07601A_07518A_07820B.wav (11 MB)
This is a wave file that you should burn to a CD and playback as a normal audio file through a digital optical output.

Inside HDMI FW folder we have:
HDMIUpdater705-905 07706A.zip (4,3 MB)
This file contains:
HDMIUpdater805_07706A (Folder)
605UpdaterWindow.JPG

Inside HDMIUpdater805_07706A (folder) we have:
Setup (folder)
firmware (folder)
Update.exe
ST6UNST.LOG

Inside firmware (folder) we have:
SR805 (folder) (!)

Inside SR805 (folder) we have:
FW805.dcf
fdist.fdf
fdist.BAK
DSP604.mot
Bin_SR8053_07424B.mot
Bin_SR8052_07424A.mot
Bin_SR8051_07425A.mot
805mdda.mot
605HDMI.hex

A few steps back and we're at Setup (folder) we have:
Support (folder)
Update.CAB
SETUP.LST
setup.exe

Inside Support (folder) we have:
VB6STKIT.DLL
VB6JP.DLL
Updater.DDF
Update.exe
Update.BAT
stdole2.tlb
ST6UNST.EXE
SETUP1.EXE
Setup.Lst
SETUP.EXE
olepro32.dll
oleaut32.dll
msvbvm60.dll
MSCOMM32.OCX
MSCOMJP.DLL
COMCAT.DLL
asycfilt.dll

That was the contents of HDMI FW folder.

Back to the root and inside the MAIN FW folder:
905_927a.mot
ID TX NR 905.rtf

That was all the contents of that folder.

Next is the NETWORK FW folder:
firmware.zip (14 MB)

Inside that zip file we have:
firmware.dat (15 MB)

Postead the following on the "9.8" thread and received no comments. Thought I'd try on this thread which is more specific to Reon issues.

For some reason, after upgrading to ver. 1.04 a couple months ago, I didn't do a very comprehensive check of color. However, I did today and discovered problems with my Reon processing. I used both a XA2 and PS3 upconvert of SD Avia to 1080i and also also used the DVE HD DVD version.

When on "through" my color is right on (either HD DVE or SD Avia) and the Avia color decoder check shows all three colors at "0" deviation. However, when processing through the Reon I must decrement the saturation on the Reon to a "-6" (for both the upconverts and HD DVD version) and the upconverted Avia color decoder check shows red and blue at "0"; but green is at at a "-20%". This is the classic problem of sending a standard definition color space through at HD resolution (I'm sending 1080i to a SXRD XBR1).

The XA2 and PS3 upconverts (to 1080i) are not the problem because they show no color decoder problem when on "Through". It's obviously the Reon.

Has anyone else tried the Avia color decoder check with version 1.04? Do you have the same or contradictory results?

How can it possibly know you have an SD color space if you send the Reon a 1080i signal?

You need to send in the SD 480i and then see what the Reon does with it doing all the conversions.

I'm not sending the Reon a SD color space. The PS3 and XA2 upconvert correctly. That's why everything is perfect if I use "through" for the Reon. Also, have the same issue with the HD DVD version of DVE and it definitely would be using the HD color space.

The XA2 won't output 480i over HDMI. However, whatever is occuring, the fact remains that when on "Through" with a 1080i signal from the XA2, I have perfect HD color (measured by Avia and DVE color/saturation screens and the Avia color decoder screen) on my TV. When the Reon is "turned on" (set to 1080i), the color changes such that I must decrease saturation on the Reon to a "-6"; and with the color decoder screen, green is then 20% down with red and blue remaining at "0". Bottom line: It's something to do with the Reon.

Unlike red, a 20% variance in green is barely noticeable; but it is there/measurable and makes me wonder what the Reon is doing wrong. I've read numerous places that this type color shift is an incorrect color space issue. It normally occurs when upconverting players do not properly change the color space from SD to HD.

Hopefully, someone with a copy of Avia will use the color decoder screen and see if they get the same results when shifting from "through" to active use of the Reon.

I'm not clear how this color space stuff works at all. The obvious way it should work is only supported on high end displays that have a selector switch for you to pick a color space. Even if HDMI tracks this color space source issue it can't handle analog sources automatically.

I've seen the problem on my system using LG tuner for scaling DVD, back before I got the Onkyo. Once I fed direct to the Onkyo the problem vanished.

I guess my only questions would be how is the HDMI supposed to tell the display what to use, and how would you know if the Onkyo is bad or just not fully compatible with the display.

What I mean is how do you know where the color space conversion happens? If it is in the source device as you mention, I don't see how the Onkyo could be used by anybody and I have no obvious color errors from it like this.

I could see the Onlyo having protocol issues with some devices but I can't see it degrading a HD color space to NTSC if it arrived all converted to HD color and 1080i in.
If it did that nobody could watch it with the Reon enabled. Back when I had the LG scaling everybody's skin tones looked like they were sick and I could not adjust tint to make it look OK.

HDMI has nothing to do with the color space problem. Color space information is not passed during the "hand shake". SD and HD have different color spaces (i.e., don't know proper term but it is how they are encoded). When the set receives the HD signal, it presumes that the colors were encoded accordingly. If not, when it "decodes" a signal with SD color encoding, the colors are not correct. It is the player's "job" to output the correct color space for the applicable resolution. My components were doing that.
It is the TVs job to recognize a HD/SD resolution and decode the color accordingly. Very few TVs have a "switch" that allows the user to specify the color space.

Even if it isn't color space issues, the Reon is changing the saturation level of input color and specifically decreasing the intensity of the green by 20%. As I've said, I made the same measurement when output by a PS3 or XA2 into my SXRD.

I've been using the Reon (have it turned on because of standard definition stations output from my HR20) for several months. The problem wasn't readily apparent until I did the specific calibrations.

I'm hoping someone else will do the measurements rather than just "doubting" the results. Maybe I have a unique problem; but the odds are against it.

I'm not doubting your results, just your cause. I would not expect the Onkyo or any scaler to do color conversions. I see nothing mentioning this capability on the Silicon Optix web site. I see Lumagen has this capability but it is selectable from a menu as I believe it should be on displays.

Here is another source saying basically this point:

and specifically decreasing the intensity of the green by 20%. As I've said, I made the same measurement when output by a PS3 or XA2 into my SXRD.

I've been using the Reon (have it turned on because of standard definition stations output from my HR20) for several months. The problem wasn't readily apparent until I did the specific calibrations.

I'm hoping someone else will do the measurements rather than just "doubting" the results. Maybe I have a unique problem; but the odds are against it.[/quote]

I'm not doubting your results, just your cause. I would not expect the Onkyo or any scaler to do color conversions. I see nothing mentioning this capability on the Silicon Optix web site. I see Lumagen has this capability but it is selectable from a menu as I believe it should be on displays.

Here is another source discussing this that seems to cover the issues I had with my LG.
It also says displays must have selectable color space switches.

http://www.hdtvmagazine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5317

If the Reon had the capability it too would require a manual selection for this I would think.
Especially considering you can use HDMI in RGB modes as well as difference modes.

And here's another option to fix this:

"(Update, 1/23/2007) As I mentioned last week, OPPO has been working on a firmware update to allow control of the colorspace setting. That work has led to a new beta firmware (not yet official). You can find the firmware on the 981HD's support page. This beta should only be necessary if you are encountering an uncorrectable "green push" (green tint to all video), as the problem may be due to the display improperly using the BT.601 color conversion matrix (intended for SD video, YCbCr sources) instead of the BT.709 color conversion matrix that should be used with HD sources. Manually selecting "RGB" will instruct the 981HD to apply BT.601 even at HD resolutions. If you are having no problems and elect to install this firmware, you should select "Auto" from the options of Auto, RGB, and YCbCr 4:4:4 on the General Setup Page of the setup menu."

The above from: http://www.prillaman.net/oppo981_review.html

So it looks like a very common problem. All I'm trying to say is the external scalers with more features have switches for this color space but I don't see any for scalers in receivers. The problem seems solvable at any of the three devices from source to display to the Onlyo.

If I had the test disk handy I'd try this test for you, and various modes of HDMI too that I can select on bluray and on my projector.
I have watched with the scaling done in all three devices and have seen no changes in the color. Just in the scaling quality, for SD DVD's.

Any word on when we can get our hands on 1.06... and what it fixes?

joerod... where are you...

Hi All

i'm wiling to share 1.05 for TX-SR875 with complete instructions. PM me if u want it. F*** u to those who had it all along but never shared.

Hi all;

I think we are falling prey to the "if its available lets upgrade" syndrome.

Many times upgrades introduce their own problems. Seems to me we should find out what the features/benefits/potential downsides are to 1.06 before clamoring for a change.

I would be up for a firmware fix to give more flexbility in adjusting for lip sync issues.
Especially if the "fix" can be applied by input setting and not just globally like 1.05.

By the way...did we determine if 1.05 for the 905 fixes the color and brightness issues even if all the settings are set for zero?

I'm assuming any update is worth trying, especially if it is already on currently shipping units. If we don't like it we should be able to just reload the 1.05 code. At least that's my plan. I sure hope they don't lock out going back a rev like my Sony Blu-Ray player does.

Hi All:

It has been a couple weeks since I jumped on this thread regarding the Onkyo/Integra firmware update issue. I have an Integra 8.8 which I updated with the 1.05 firmware. I bought my receiver in early October 07 with a 1.01 early version of the firmware. There were black level problems with this firmware series. I updated my firmware without a hitch and am cooking with gas! The receiver has displayed no lip sinc issue and I've worked through all the various setups with hd radio, ipod setup, networking using my computer and internet radio. It takes some time to play with the many options available and get them where you like them, but once done, I have been very pleased. The only part that is a little offsetting is the HDMI audio switching lag...but hey it is converting through a lot of data and once set....the sound and video is great. TrueHD and DTS HD Master Tracks are great. Listened to the Pat Methney Group HD DVD via my XA2 and this receiver...wow! So...sometimes we can get pretty cranky and really miss the joy of this great receiver and other similar products. I get that way too...the downside of being early adopters! Just thought I would put in a good word for those considering buying. If a 1.06 firmware option comes...will consider upgrading...it is pretty simple.

This is an email I got from Onkyo today re: seemingly simple questions re: my 905.

I asked Alcena Vaughn numerous times why my DSP3 number was not the same as units shipping now. I also asked her how a registered owner of an Onkyo product was supposed to be made aware of firmware updates (expecting her to say Joerod) and she only replied with what seemed to be a scripted answer of (I'm paraphrasing here) "your 905 has a firmware update available for black levels and the reon, you can install the firmware yourself or take it to an authorized service center".

When I told her that I took my 905 to an ONKYO authorized service center and they told me that my DSP was "17 versions behind" she said that they haven't issued an update for DSP so he was wrong. I also got a different email response from the parts dept saying to take my unit back to the service center for service and when I asked Ms. Vaughn why the conflict in responses from Onkyo she replied with the same canned response, completely avoiding my questions. I also asked her what the difference was for units shipping with the 07820B DSP3 firmware # from my older, dated DSP #. Again, no response, like I didn't even ask the questions.

Months into this and 10's of emails later I asked to be directed to a supervisor, figuring that he would promptly answer my questions and resolve my issues. It's no wonder Onkyo cust. service reps behave in the way they do, with total disregard for their customers/owners, look at the culture from the top down.

This is without a doubt the last time I purchase a product made by Onkyo and I recommend that the visitors of this board not support a company that treats it's customers in this manner.

It's a shame, because they make an excellent product, maybe one day they'll realize that they actually need to support it as well

Thank you and well said!!..I feel exactly the same way..I have had none of the issues or problems (firmware 1.05) being thrown around on this forum, except for the few second audio delay when switching between channels. Small matter in my mind. At the end of the day, all this complaining is really just going hurt the resale value of the receiver for all of us, and needlessly turn away prospective buyers. Let's show some discretion.

I too sent her TWO e-mails specifically asking about 1.06 and my old DSP3 version. She has YET to respond, and this is after speaking to her on the phone twice about my 905 problems. I'm in the same boat as you..this is my LAST Onkyo purchase. When the next version of Denon receivers come out, I'm selling my 905 so I don't have to deal with Alcena and Onkyo again. Not that Denon is perfect, but the way Onkyo has treated people is NOT to be tolerated in 2008.

I also had to wait weeks between responses, often having to email her multiple times before she'd respond.

The 905s have some serious problems, and Onkyo customer support is absolutely horrible. Onkyo does NOT deserve any more $$. People should vote with their feet and purchase another brand. Clearly Onkyo completely disregards customers and no company should be allowed to act as if customers are pests.

Have you personally tried to get information from Alcena? For instance, what is in 1.06 and why our DSP3 versions are old? They refuse to provide any such information.

I respect your opinion but disagree.

People sometimes visit these forums to make decisions about what equipment to purchase and I would rather tell the truth and maintain the integrity of this forum than cover up disgraceful customer service for a company that I have no stake in.

The resale value may indeed be affected by this talk, but if we have the power to affect resale value we may also have the affect of prompting Onkyo to improve their product and customer service. The affect on resale should not be drastic because a portion of people, like yourself, are willing to overlook Onkyo's issues with their product and their customer service.

"Have you personally tried to get information from Alcena? For instance, what is in 1.06 and why our DSP3 versions are old? They refuse to provide any such information.[/quote]"


Yes I agree that Onkyo customer service is not the best. But as stated many times on this forum, most other companies aren't much better. As for version 1.06 etc, I will just wait for Joerod to distribute it (hopefuly), just like he did 1.05, which I was able to install without a hitch. I just feel that some issues are being blown out of proportion on these forums, and people tend to whip themselves up into a frenzy. I have not experienced any serious problems with my 905, and I have had mine since early last summer.

I have to agree. Onkyo customer relations are pathetic. Of course there are some others that are just as bad, but it will affect what I buy in the future. Right now, nothing really matches the feature set's in these Onkyo's receivers in their price range, so it's tough to recommend something else. But if Yamaha or Denon were to come out with an equivalent that's close to the same price, I would easily recommend buying them instead simply because of the way Onkyo deals with customers.

Just went to Denon web to look at the 4308 code updates. They did list one with what it fixed. But later ones that automatically come down over the web they don't seem to list any info for. So maybe they get more and better updates than Onkyo but hard to tell without more info.

I am still hoping things improve. One email I got from Onkyo asking for a new feature they responded they did not have it but to watch the web site for any code updates! And they do list updates for some of the products, just not the 905 yet.

I think the real problem is these companies think the more they tell us the more people will run to another product that doesn't admit to any issues. What they forget is the people here know that every product today has bugs and would prefer to buy from a company that is fixing things and supporting them. The other people that just want to buy something and not know anything are not likely to read bug lists on a company web site anyways.

I suppose I can't post any more "on topic" than this question, and I'm sorry if it has already been answered...

I have been watching this thread for a couple of months now while waiting for my DTR-8.8 to arrive, after ordering it in Oct/Nov 07. It arrived last week, with the 1.05 firmware, and I have the reon controls like brightness, etc. The box also has a "P" stamped in front of the serial number.

As in originalsnuffy's question above.... does simply having this firmware revision mean that black levels are fixed, or do I need to tweak the brightness/contrast settings?

I am using a PS3 for 1080p24 BD content to a Pioneer PDP-LX508, and in passthrough, I see the screen go a little (well, actually quite noticeably) brighter on a black screen, yet I don't see this issue if I connect directly - bypassing the Integra.

Any advice is appreciated! After all the posts I have read, I understood that it would simply be fixed, and that the receiver would not alter or brighten the black levels at all?

As to your question about the 1.05 firmware and altered black problem: After I installed the 1.05 version updating it from an earlier 1.01 version on my Integra dtr 8.8 I found the black levels to be very good and a significant improvement. I did no other adjustments. I use a Sony SXRD HDTV, Toshiba xa2 and directv hd dvr. The color and black levels are on point. You may need to do some tweeking in the video section of the 905 or other monitor adjustment following firmware upgrade...but this was not my experience. So...Yes the firmware has in my case satisfactorally improved the problem. I do agree that Onkyo/Integra should have made this firmware more readily available to their customers. I was able to track the firmware down via this forum and appreciated the input by forum members. I contacted Onkyo/Integra and tried to get the firmware with no success...but I did get it through this forum and now am very pleased with the performance. I don't doubt if there are various versions of the 1.05 firmware floating around out there...not sure, but I have noticed slight number variations of firmware posted. Haven't looked that closely...maybe someone can determine which is the best version and make it available? Again...it would be nice if the manufacturer would provide this to avoid the problem. Hope this helps.

How about if the Onkyo upscales 480i to 1080p. Are you sure it dosn't touch the color space?
Zibby

Hi Dale,

Thanks for your observations. I'm wondering if your black levels are now acceptable, whether they are even better for you when bypassing the receiver?

Would you mind doing an A/B comparison test for me? Are you able to plug say your xa2 directly into your SXRD via HDMI and check what a black image looks like compared to going via the 8.8 in passthrough mode?

I'm interested to know if I actually have an issue with my 8.8 or not as I don't and can't understand why the 8.8 would output a brighter image when in 1080p24 passthrough mode.

50% of the reason I replaced my old TX-DS989 was for HDMI switching, and the other 50% for support for new audio formats. It would be a pity if I can't get the black levels right, as I'll look for something else that doesn't "get in the way".

I also should say that IMHO the build of my old Onkyo 989 "Integra" from 1999 feels so much stronger and better engineered - what's with the new "spinny" volume-by-wire volume knob? It doesn't at all feel satisfying to turn the knob manually. It is a bit like the difference between a really cheap Korean/Malaysian car and strong heavy German car, and we are talking about the same price range. And can you completely turn of the amp's display? It appears to only have three levels of brightness. My 989 could go switch the display off, which is kinda a mandatory thing to be able to do in a home theatre environment if all the gear is facing you. Just don't know why they have gone backwards on some of these things.

Back to my issue, I've also tried with OSD off and it didn't make a difference - and I know some have posted that only by turning off the Reon (how do you do that?) and the OSD that their black levels return to normal.

I hope you have time for this quick A/B test and look forward to your results (and any others out there who are willing to test for me!!).

And does anyone know if the new Reon settings like Brightness/Contrast actually affect passthrough mode or not? I'm not at home to test right now.