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Why the smeg are the HD-DVD forum now considering region coding?

post #1 of 52
10/6/07 at 2:28am
Thread Starter 
I mean, talk about stupidity. They've just managed to convert over the hearts and minds of some ex-Blu rays fans like myself, region coding being the most important consideration.

They then spend 150million on marketing whatever arrangements to woo Paramount over. They then achieve an almost parity result in the Nielsen results, and everything is starting to look a bit rosier for HD-DVD...

THEN.. they pick up a gun, put it to their head and start talking about pulling the trigger. What are they thinking?

Urgggh!! Being in Australia, and having lived with 10 years of late or never arriving local DVD releases, region coding is scary stuff. Why is this round of region coding any different from DVD? This time its for real, whats implemented on Blu-ray is not the micky mouse DVD scheme which was easily removed by the average 12 year old.

Poll : If HD-DVD implemented region coding, would be the death knell for HD-DVD?

PS. Incase you havn't read the thread which reported this...

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=918107
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post #2 of 52
10/6/07 at 2:36am
I hope this isn't true. I mean Fox absolutaly pisses me off with there region coding on BD. This would be a major bummer for me, as I import the vast majority of my High Def collection.
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post #3 of 52
10/6/07 at 3:06am
Living in Europe, I support HD DVD mainly because of its lack of region coding. To date I have bought 21 HD titles, and 19 of these are imported from the US because of the slim selection of titles available here in Norway.

If HD DVD introduced region coding, and studios started using it, I would have to wait a long time for a lot of releases to be available here.

What would probably happen eventually, is that players sold here in Europe will have region hacks easily available, sometimes even done in the store. Just the way it is being done with DVD players these days.
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post #4 of 52
10/6/07 at 3:09am
Why does everything here thats poll based have the wording "THE END" or "THE DEATH KNELL!" at the end? Such minor issues wont affect the end of a format.

Lack of region coding was always HD-DVD's strength, at least in the eyes of the consumer. Really stupid that they are removing it.
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post #5 of 52
10/6/07 at 3:45am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by egz View Post

What would probably happen eventually, is that players sold here in Europe will have region hacks easily available, sometimes even done in the store. Just the way it is being done with DVD players these days.

This is the problem, these new players have strong anti-tampering code, and the US has since passed pretty draconian DRM laws. Given the always on ethernet, they can disable your player. Blu-ray hasn't been cracked yet, and I don't see that HD-DVD will be any easier.

My main problem, is that region coding was the main advantage that HD-DVD had over Blu-ray. I was willing to give up the extra space and all the other small advantageous Blu-ray had, because HD-DVD was region free.

Daniel.
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post #6 of 52
10/6/07 at 3:49am
Do we have any concrete that they are going to implement region codings? That they discuss it isnt the same. Talks about have been for a long time.
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post #7 of 52
10/6/07 at 3:50am
What region coding would that be? Is this the Japanese Conference rumour being recycled? My understanding was a Twin Format triple layer disc -- 1 DVD layer and 2 HD layers -- was popped up on a slide in Japanese with a reference to region encoding.

The formal DVD spec calls for region encoding.
The formal HD DVD spec does NOT call for region encoding.

Just because a disc carries two copies of content, one with region encoding, doesn't mean that somehow the other copy carries region encoding.

There was nothing in the actual facts of those reports which, as far as I could see, stated HD DVD was moving to region encoding. See, this is how rumours start and get way out of hand.
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post #8 of 52
10/6/07 at 3:55am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MovieSwede View Post

Do we have any concrete that they are going to implement region codings? That they discuss it isnt the same. Talks about have been for a long time.

Why would you have a conference in October 2007 on adding region coding if there was no intention to do so? The HD-DVD forum has NOT ever said there wouldn't be region coding, but we've been told "Dont worry about it, not going to happen, its too late".

If that was the case, why bring it up for discussion at a conference. How do you know there is not going to be a vote at the end?

Daniel.
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post #9 of 52
10/6/07 at 3:56am
Where is the "This is a stupid poll, I'm not voting" option?
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post #10 of 52
10/6/07 at 3:59am
Well unless we have have a real translation, it could mean anything. They could very well refer to the regioncoding of the DVD side of the disc, who knows.

But they have talked about it for some time now. And not much have happend.

And the real question, why? They will not get fox to switch (and frankly any HDM side that has fox on its side dont really need enemys)
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post #11 of 52
10/6/07 at 4:05am
Ah, Red Dwarf. Excellent.
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post #12 of 52
10/6/07 at 4:14am
Why does every poll have to be the end of a format? can't we have some reasonable vote choices? I'm strongly against region coding but I don't feel in anyway that it would kill the format.

Especially since it appears most of the HD DVD studios are against region encoding, meaning we'd only likely see it happen on a small number of discs and of course I don't see that Japanese translation of being any indication that we are about to get region coding.
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post #13 of 52
10/6/07 at 4:19am
My first hope is that we won't get RC.

My second hope is that, if we do, my old player will last a long time.

My third hope is, if it is introduced, most studios won't use it (like most discs are RC-free on BD at the moment).

My final hope is that, if it comes, it'll be hand-set crackable on Chinese players - just like with SD DVD.

It's not a format-war winner or loser though, so I didn't vote.

I'm in England, by the way.

Steve W
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post #14 of 52
10/6/07 at 5:00am
By the way, I thought at first that the poll question is "Why the smeg are the HD-DVD forum now considering region coding?", and that's not a yes/no question, now is it?
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post #15 of 52
10/6/07 at 5:12am
Quote:
Originally Posted by PopcornReady View Post

What region coding would that be? Is this the Japanese Conference rumour being recycled? My understanding was a Twin Format triple layer disc -- 1 DVD layer and 2 HD layers -- was popped up on a slide in Japanese with a reference to region encoding.

The formal DVD spec calls for region encoding.
The formal HD DVD spec does NOT call for region encoding.

Just because a disc carries two copies of content, one with region encoding, doesn't mean that somehow the other copy carries region encoding.

There was nothing in the actual facts of those reports which, as far as I could see, stated HD DVD was moving to region encoding. See, this is how rumours start and get way out of hand.

Correct! People just want to speculate and ignore the facts.
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post #16 of 52
10/6/07 at 5:24am
Region coding is a bad thing for the non-US market. Lots of people including me import our libraries from the US at a higher cost (considering the shipping charges and local tax incurred) but it is worth it at the end of the day.


I hope HD-DVD never considers this because it is a strong point.


Speaking of region coding, the Samsung Blu-Ray player which was hacked a couple of months ago to become region free has now been joined by Mr. Blu-Ray Sony itself. The Sony S1 is now a region free hacked player as well. So much for blowing the trumpet on how well the region coding is implemented in Blu-Ray players and how it is the saviour of piracy. This is dedicated to Fox and Disney for being forward thinking - not.

Region free just like in the days of VHS and Laser Disc is the way to go. It failed with DVD and it will fail with HDM. It doesn't serve its purpose and there is always an alternative solution available.

HD-DVD should not consider this option as the survival of region coding in the long run is not very strong.
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post #17 of 52
10/6/07 at 5:33am
free region coding was there to counter BD's exclusive content advantage. Once almost every content is available in HD DVD. there is no point of not region code the titles
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post #18 of 52
10/6/07 at 5:35am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Haroon Malik View Post

Region coding is a bad thing for the non-US market. Lots of people including me import our libraries from the US at a higher cost (considering the shipping charges and local tax incurred) but it is worth it at the end of the day.


I hope HD-DVD never considers this because it is a strong point.


Speaking of region coding, the Samsung Blu-Ray player which was hacked a couple of months ago to become region free has now been joined by Mr. Blu-Ray Sony itself. The Sony S1 is now a region free hacked player as well. So much for blowing the trumpet on how well the region coding is implemented in Blu-Ray players and how it is the saviour of piracy. This is dedicated to Fox and Disney for being forward thinking - not.

Region free just like in the days of VHS and Laser Disc is the way to go. It failed with DVD and it will fail with HDM. It doesn't serve its purpose and there is always an alternative solution available.

HD-DVD should not consider this option as the survival of region coding in the long run is not very strong.

didnt we talked about the capability of BD+ titles rejected hacked BD hardwares at AVS?
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post #19 of 52
10/6/07 at 5:37am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Haroon Malik View Post

Region coding is a bad thing for the non-US market. Lots of people including me import our libraries from the US at a higher cost (considering the shipping charges and local tax incurred) but it is worth it at the end of the day.


I hope HD-DVD never considers this because it is a strong point.


Speaking of region coding, the Samsung Blu-Ray player which was hacked a couple of months ago to become region free has now been joined by Mr. Blu-Ray Sony itself. The Sony S1 is now a region free hacked player as well. So much for blowing the trumpet on how well the region coding is implemented in Blu-Ray players and how it is the saviour of piracy. This is dedicated to Fox and Disney for being forward thinking - not.

Region free just like in the days of VHS and Laser Disc is the way to go. It failed with DVD and it will fail with HDM. It doesn't serve its purpose and there is always an alternative solution available.

HD-DVD should not consider this option as the survival of region coding in the long run is not very strong.

So for these hacked BD players . . . what happens when the first BD+ title is loaded in the player?

Quote:


At its core, BD+ is a virtual machine (VM), running within the BD-ROM playback engine. The VM runs titlespecific code that is delivered to the system from the
BD-ROM disc. The main job of the VM is to run a security
check on the playback environment, extract the content-
specific code from the disc, and run a fix-up
function on the content stream.

Each BD+-licensed BD-ROM player is issued BD+
security keys and a certificate that is signed by a BD+
licensing authority. The security check performed by
the VM matches the player's BD+ security keys with
the player's certificate. This check insures that keys
have not been compromised or stolen from another
playback environment and inserted into the environment
being checked.

Once the keys and certificates have been checked, the
VM discovers the player's playback environmentor
its memory footprint. Each player manufacturer must
provide the BD+ licensing authority with a memory
footprint that can be used to identify their playback environment.
Security checks use these memory footprints
to positively identify the player and confirm the
integrity of the content-protection environment. Playback
can begin once these checks are complete and it
is confirmed that the player does not appear on a list of
compromised players.

http://www.dell.com/downloads/global/vectors/brcp.pdf
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post #20 of 52
10/6/07 at 5:46am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Stewart View Post

So for these hacked BD players . . . what happens when the first BD+ title is loaded in the player?

I don't know and I don't care that much as I don't plan on purchasing Blu-Ray.

I imagine there will be new BD 1.1 profile and 2.0 profile players and then hacked versions of them and the chain continues along this path!
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post #21 of 52
10/6/07 at 5:50am
Region coding would not be the death knell. It would probably make Disney (then probably Anchor Bay and Lionsgate) go neutral which would be the death knell for Blu-Ray.
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post #22 of 52
10/6/07 at 5:56am
Up till today, among the studios releasing content on HD DVD, only New Line has explicitly mentioned the lack of region coding as a reason for HD DVD versions of new films being delayed.

I believe at the end of the day the decision of whether the title will be regionally coded lies in the hands of the content owner. RPC on HD DVD titles is as optional as AACS on HD DVD discs.

Since Warner and Universal have been releasing titles on HD DVD without region code, I don't think that having RPC standardised for the HD DVD format will effect a change in the existing decision. Though it may just make sense for other studios who want the feature there in case they want to use it...
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post #23 of 52
10/6/07 at 5:59am
Quote:
Originally Posted by snaggs View Post

PS. Incase you havn't read the thread which reported this...

It's clear you didn't read the thread or you would know exactly what was being discussed. Why don't you heed your own sage advice and read the topic and then discuss it?
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post #24 of 52
10/6/07 at 6:03am
It is to my understanding that RC was developed and desired because movies were not released WW. They were released in regions with the USA being first.

Most DVD's come out about 4.5 months after the movie premiers. This short time period may and does overlap the time that the film is still in theaters in other parts of the world.

Studios must show alligence to theater owners or else the whole pratcise of showing movies in a theater might be at risk.
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post #25 of 52
10/6/07 at 6:20am
Quote:
Originally Posted by snaggs View Post

Why would you have a conference in October 2007 on adding region coding if there was no intention to do so?

The DVD Forum has been discussing RPC for HD DVD since late 2005. They created Ad Hoc Group AH0-22 to "study" the technical and logistics issues at Steering Committee Meeting #34 in May 2006:

HD DVD RPC Ad hoc group to work with appropriate WGs to develop a specification and enforcement plan for RPC on HD DVD-Video including region map and requirements in consultation with the studios.

http://www.dvdforum.org/34scmtg-resolution.htm

As I and others have posted numerous times, they did this to try and appease/attract some studios, realized it wasn't a good lure, put the plan on life support and now they just have random updates. Once the Forum creates an AH Group, they tend to linger around, even if they're not really doing anything.
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post #26 of 52
10/6/07 at 6:29am
From what I understand, you can region code discs all you want but the players will ignore it. There is no spec for it in the players and therefore no process to read it and react to it.

Stace
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post #27 of 52
10/6/07 at 6:31am
It's about time. HD DVD needs to lie more add more consumer-hostile features. It's been working so well for BD.
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post #28 of 52
10/6/07 at 6:58am
Typical blu fanboy spin here. NO WHERE anywhere does that article say that HD DVD's will have region coding.

The article talks about Twin Format discs.

Facts:

1. The HD DVD layers are incompatible with current SD DVD drives like that article says, but the fanboys are trying to spin it to mean that the TL disc is incompatible with current HD DVD drives.

2. The SD DVD layers of the twin format disc will have region coding.

There is nothing new in that article what so ever.
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post #29 of 52
10/6/07 at 7:57am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by amillians View Post

The DVD Forum has been discussing RPC for HD DVD since late 2005. They created Ad Hoc Group AH0-22 to "study" the technical and logistics issues at Steering Committee Meeting #34 in May 2006:

HD DVD RPC Ad hoc group to work with appropriate WGs to develop a specification and enforcement plan for RPC on HD DVD-Video including region map and requirements in consultation with the studios.
Once the Forum creates an AH Group, they tend to linger around, even if they're not really doing anything.

So there you have it. If they're not doing anything, disband it. Make it clear where you stand.

At the moment they have a group who's job is too specify an enforcement plan for RPC on HD-DVD.

Now is the time to tell them to disband AH-022.

Daniel.
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post #30 of 52
10/6/07 at 8:00am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by kkozma View Post

Typical blu fanboy spin here. NO WHERE anywhere does that article say that HD DVD's will have region coding.

Mate, go jump, your assertions are offensive. I'm not a fanboy and not posting spin. The first slide in that thread, shows that the HD-DVD have a working group making a presentation on Region Coding for HD-DVD.

It doesn't say they WILL, it does say they're trying to work out how. That shows a certain determination.

Daniel.
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