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My Journey to find the "perfect" speaker... - Page 51

post #1501 of 6914
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuance View Post

Agreed. It's not an easy thing to implement, that's for sure. Still, I'm going to have to agree with Funkmonkey (or was it Rydenfan...or maybe Tim? LOL) when they said even a poorly integrated ribbon sounds better than a dome when it's performing the way it should. There is just an effortlessness to it; quite the experience when done "right."

I never said "even a poorly integrated ribbon sounds better than a dome when it's performing the way it should." A poorly integrated ribbon comes off harsh to my ears, piercing, giving an unpleasant, and sometimes painful, listening experience. I would choose a soft dome over that presentation any day. When done "right," however, I prefer the sound of a ribbon tweeter, hands down. As Dennis stated above, that would appear to be a tricky thing to get right.
post #1502 of 6914
But when a ribbon is right, aaaahhh, how sweet it is
post #1503 of 6914
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Murphy View Post

I'm going to have to disagree with that generalization (and most other audio generalizations--except the one about the crossover being the most important part of a speaker--that's true). A poorly executed ribbon will sound about as bad as a poorly executed dome. And a top-notch dome crossover will beat even a fairly good ribbon crossover every time. I've been spending just about every waking hour for the past two days trying to get one of my dome designs to sound better with a ribbon. So far, no luck. It's not just the top end that counts--it's how well the tweeter integrates with the mid or woofer, plus a number of other factors I haven't quite sorted out yet.

I stand corrected. I guess I've had a limited amount of exposure with Ribbons. Even the ones that got a little shrill at times still sounded better most of the time than most of the domes I have heard. But that's just me and I've only heard a few. I didn't mean to imply that a ribbon will magically make a speaker better. I do agree that the crossover is the most important part. You could have the best drivers in the world, but if the crossover isn't correct it will still sound bad.

Sorry to hear that all your hard work isn't yet paying off, Dennis. Some things are just not meant to be.

I didn't mean to misquote anyone. I could have sworn someone said they prefer a ribbon tweeter that does most things right over a dome. My mistake. All I meant is that I prefer a ribbon over a dome most of the time. It's all kind of moot for me anyway, because the most important part of the speaker for me is the midrange. If that's not "right," forget it; don't care how nice the top end is.

I changed my original statement as not to confuse anyone else.
post #1504 of 6914
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuance View Post

^ Nah, not the wrong thread. Honestly, I don't care what we talk about here. I made this thread to help me along my journey. My journey ended up being a lot more than just speakers, so it's all good, especially if its helpful and useful information for me and others. In fact, if it helps others, I'd rather that than me being helped. If even one other person besides me was helped by the creation of this thread, it's worth it.

Well said, and I for one can easily say this thread has greatly benefited me in many ways. Thanks, and keep up the good work!
post #1505 of 6914
Since we are on the topic of quality ribbon tweeters, I have some very impressive information to share about the tweeter in the MA Platinum's.

A few pages back in this thread there was some speculation that the tweeter in the Platinums looked like a Fountek unit. We weren't far off from the truth, but there are some significant differences I recently discovered.

I approached none other than the Technical Director, Dean Hartley, at Monitor Audio and asked him about the tweeter in the Platinum's.

Here's what he said:

"The resemblance to the Fountek ribbon is not a co-incidence. I worked with Fountek for about 18 months to achieve a tweeter that was consistent to +/-0.5dB and one that could 'reliably' work down to 2.5KHz. All the platinum speakers are measured one by one in our anechoic chamber using our Klippel QC measurement system, so we are measuring to R&D tolerances with platinum, not standard production tolerances for our other ranges with are +/- 1dB (or +/-1.5dB with BR and RS series)

My original design and prototypes used the Fountek ribbon. We bought a batch of Fountek ribbons and found the consistency to be only in the region of +/- 2dB, which was not good enough for a range such as this (or perhaps any range of marked quality). This was apparently the best Fountek could offer us. So, we took on the task of replicating the Fountek tweeter and now have it assembled in a small high-tech factory in Asia (who also make the bass and mi-drivers for us). We improved the ribbon material, moving to our C-CAM material which we have to free-issue from Japan. There are some other changes to the magnetic circuit, transformer and of course the die-cast front plate."


So you can see that MA is not playing around when it comes to the design and QC over the Platinum series. There was some serious engineering effort put into this speaker line. I mean this is the first that I have heard of a company making the effort to test every driver in an anechoic chamber to within 0.5dB tolerances! As Dean put it, this usually reserved for reference quality R&D purposes. Pretty impressive.

And I can attest that in my original audition and now in my home the treble of the PL300's is effortless and imaculately detailed without crossing over into brightness or edginess. Even recordings that I thought were just recorded with too much treble and sibilance now sound much more listenable than they ever have, yet recordings with proper treble balance don't sound lifeless and smoothed over. I didn't think it was possible, but ribbon tweets in the MA Platinum's are smooth yet detailed at the same time. And not just acceptabley detailed, but more detailed than the best dome tweeters I have heard.

I know you guys are hungry for my impressions of the PL300's in my room with my system, so here's a bit more. I think the comments above cover my feelings about the treble quality, but one of the things I really get excited about is the ability of a speaker to produce an expansive soundstage when called upon to do so and their ability to convey a sense of space—the wrap-around effect. The Platinum’s impress me in a big way here, and running just in stereo no less. (I'm still searching for the right mounts for the rear speakers, so no Lexicon Logic 7 for me right now. )

Tonight, rather than sit down and listen to the typical audiophile stuff, I put some of my electronica in for fun. Now of course with this sort of music you can’t expect to evaluate the speaker’s ability to convey a sense of realism, but the stuff I listen to is great for getting a feel for bass extension, bass dynamics and soundstaging. Towards the end of the disc I was spinning tonight, the artist plays with phase on the vocals. With speakers that image well, the effect should sound like the vocals are out into the room and even slightly behind the listener. If the speaker doesn’t get it right, the vocals just sound like an indistinct blob of sound between the speakers. I’m sad to say that looking back on my previous speakers (you know who your are) with this track I initially thought there was something wrong with the recording. However with the Platinum’s, there was room-filling, wall-to-wall, wrap-around sound. It’s like pyrotechnics for the ears! Good stuff.

And you want to talk about effortless. I kept creeping up the volume until I got to –5dB from reference level, which I believe is just around +100dB and there was no strain, or compression, or hardness, or anything.

Ok, so now for the bass. In the track just before the one I described above, in the middle of the song there is a fade-down of most of the instrumentation and then there is a massive “wash” of bass energy. If bass were like water, there would have been a about a 6 foot wave of it coming out of the speakers and flowing right through my room. More good stuff. Just to see how the bass quality and quanity of the PL300’s stacked up against my Velodyne DD15 on this track, I switched back and forth between an 80 Hz crossover and running the PL300’s full range. I’m not exaggerating when I say that the PL300’s sounded as good if not better than my sub. Part of it has to do with the location of the PL300’s and the sub, with the sub having a slight disadvantage, but I could seriously see retiring the DD15 to being used for just an LFE channel on movies.

Well, that’s it for now, and I promise to report back on the quality of audiophile approved music as soon as I can , but I’m just having too much fun right now.
post #1506 of 6914
hifisponge, yowwsir!WOW!...as I'm listening to "Close To The Edge" on my Grado's!
post #1507 of 6914
Quote:
Originally Posted by cajieboy View Post

hifisponge, yowwsir!WOW!...as I'm listening to "Close To The Edge" on my Grado's!

!!!!!!
post #1508 of 6914
Tim, I am so thrilled for you buddy!!

Only 7 days away until my audition....
post #1509 of 6914
Tim,

What electronica disc were you spinning for that review?
post #1510 of 6914
Quote:
Originally Posted by cajieboy View Post

hifisponge, yowwsir!WOW!...as I'm listening to "Close To The Edge" on my Grado's!


Now That, is an amazing album...

I have every Yes album out there, I think , they are all really great, but the effects they used on Close to the Edge, is really cool...
post #1511 of 6914
Tim, glad things are meeting your expectations with the new PL300's...


Looking forward to your full review..
post #1512 of 6914
If this has been posted previously, forgive me: Tech Radar's review on the PL300.


http://www.techradar.com/products/au...-100310/review
post #1513 of 6914
Thread Starter 
Thanks for the review, Mozvz. Good find!

Tim - AWESOME!!! I am so happy for you! It sounds like you've finally found the speaker of your dreams. WOOHOO!! You deserve it my friend! Enjoy!
post #1514 of 6914
Tim,

Let me add my voice to those who are thrilled for you. I hope these babies continue to take you home and give you the audio love you've been patiently seeking. I'm withholding permanent vows until you've given us the entire scoop! But man, so far the dating seems to have proven fruitful for you!
post #1515 of 6914
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bing View Post

Tim,

What electronica disc were you spinning for that review?

Dubfire: Taipei GU31 - Disc 2 of 2

http://www.amazon.com/Global-Undergr...0441385&sr=8-1
post #1516 of 6914
I e-mailed Dean Hartley with MA again, this time about the vertical dispersion of the ribbon tweeter in the Platinum's. Supposedly he had done a lot of work to improve this known weak area of most ribbons. For reference, most ribbon tweets have about a 5-10 degrees of vertical dispersion.

Here's what Dean had to say about the dispersion of the ribbon tweet in the Platinum:

"One area we worked on with the PL ribbon was the off-axis dispersion, since this is/has been a general problem with the flexibility of ribbons over the years. We worked on the crossover to increase the dispersion around the crossover point. You will find a similar pattern to a dome tweeter in the range of 0-20 degrees vertically. After that, there is a rate of roll off of around 1dB/5 degrees."

So while 20 degrees of vertical dispersion is not quite the level you can get from a good dome, it is much better than most ribbons and in my experience it is just enough that if you are at least 5 feet from the speakers, there is little if any drop off in HF when you stand. And the side benefit is that your still reduced the splash of HF off of the ceiling.
post #1517 of 6914
Quote:
Originally Posted by hifisponge View Post

I e-mailed Dean Hartley with MA again, this time about the vertical dispersion of the ribbon tweeter in the Platinum's. Supposedly he had done a lot of work to improve this known weak area of most ribbons. For reference, most ribbon tweets have about a 5-10 degrees of vertical dispersion.

Here's what Dean had to say about the dispersion of the ribbon tweet in the Platinum:

"One area we worked on with the PL ribbon was the off-axis dispersion, since this is/has been a general problem with the flexibility of ribbons over the years. We worked on the crossover to increase the dispersion around the crossover point. You will find a similar pattern to a dome tweeter in the range of 0-20 degrees vertically. After that, there is a rate of roll off of around 1dB/5 degrees."

So while 20 degrees of vertical dispersion is not quite the level you can get from a good dome, it is much better than most ribbons and in my experience it is just enough that if you are at least 5 feet from the speakers, there is little if any drop off in HF when you stand. And the side benefit is that your still reduced the splash of HF off of the ceiling.

Great reading.

"And the side benefit is that your still reduced the splash of HF off of the ceiling."

Unfortunately, I think many, if not most, of us have our speakers closer to a side boundary than the ceiling.
post #1518 of 6914
Thread Starter 
Right you are, Curtis.

When I have another Saturday to myself I am going to go give those babies a listen again (the PL300's). I am even going to get ballsy and talk to the floor manager about putting them in a more acoustically friendly room.

Patrick - perhaps you and I could both go and give them some recommendations? I guarantee they'd sell more pairs if they were properly set up and calibrated. What do you think?

Tim - thanks for the info. I did notice that the vertical dispersion was better than most ribbons I've heard, but still not in the league of a dome.
post #1519 of 6914
Agreed Brandon, I think the best scenario they have available is that theater room, which is accoustically treated, but they have platform seating in there, so they would have to be angled up towards the LP a bit... I would think its do-able though.

Oh and BTW, You must be out of your mind to think us lowly auditoners are going to tell the hifalutin Audiogods over at Flanners how to set things up properly over there.

"people come TO US for advise !!" is more along the answers you will probably get....
post #1520 of 6914
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Warpdrv View Post

Agreed Brandon, I think the best scenario they have available is that theater room, which is accoustically treated, but they have platform seating in there, so they would have to be angled up towards the LP a bit... I would think its do-able though.

Oh and BTW, You must be out of your mind to think us lowly auditoners are going to tell the hifalutin Audiogods over at Flanners how to set things up properly over there.

"people come TO US for advise !!" is more along the answers you will probably get....

Yeah well, when we start chatting with them and they realize we know a lot more than they do, they'll cave.
post #1521 of 6914
Quote:
Originally Posted by cschang View Post

Great reading.

"And the side benefit is that your still reduced the splash of HF off of the ceiling."

Unfortunately, I think many, if not most, of us have our speakers closer to a side boundary than the ceiling.

True, but every little bit helps and most of us also have things within our rooms that either help break up or soften the walls but the ceiling is just a large, uninterrupted, reflective surface.
post #1522 of 6914
Quote:
Originally Posted by hifisponge View Post

True, but every little bit helps and most of us also have things within our rooms that either help break up or soften the walls but the ceiling is just a large, uninterrupted, reflective surface.

Agreed.

So it brings us back to the question, is wide dispersion good or bad?
post #1523 of 6914
Quote [Sorry to hear that all your hard work isn't yet paying off, Dennis. Some things are just not meant to be.]

Well, I put in a few more hours and used a different sample of the tweeter, and I think the deed is done. The ribbon is superior, but probably not as much as some of you might think (at least not compared with the excellent Hiquphon 0W2).. We're definitely talking diminishing returns, but I guess that's true of a lot of things in audio.
post #1524 of 6914
Dennis, what is the cost difference between the ribbon you are working with and the Hiquphon 0W2?
post #1525 of 6914
[quote=cschang;13839006]Dennis, what is the cost difference between the ribbon you are working with and the Hiquphon 0W2?[/QUOTE

Double. $200 per vs $100. It's not twice as nice. Maybe 10% better. But I'm still working at it.
post #1526 of 6914
[quote=Dennis Murphy;13840066]
Quote:
Originally Posted by cschang View Post

Dennis, what is the cost difference between the ribbon you are working with and the Hiquphon 0W2?[/QUOTE

Double. $200 per vs $100. It's not twice as nice. Maybe 10% better. But I'm still working at it.

Is this a design for you? Or for a design for Jim?
post #1527 of 6914
Quote:
Originally Posted by cschang View Post

So it brings us back to the question, is wide dispersion good or bad?


Good from the point of view of those listeners that are in off-axis positions.
post #1528 of 6914
Song Towers with a ribbon???!
post #1529 of 6914
Quote:
Originally Posted by funkmonkey View Post

Song Towers with a ribbon???!

Ain't sayin'. And whatever it is might turn out to be nothing at all. I'm just tryng to point out that ribbons aren't quantum leaps better than domes, and they can be tricky.
post #1530 of 6914
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Murphy View Post

Ain't sayin'. And whatever it is might turn out to be nothing at all. I'm just tryng to point out that ribbons aren't quantum leaps better than domes, and they can be tricky.

At the risk of sounding like an MA fanboy, my experience with the ribbon tweeter in the MA Platinums was significantly better than any dome I have heard. And I have listened to some very good ones (Revel, Focal, Dynaudio).
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