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6.5" woofers just can't rock - Page 3

post #61 of 404
Quote:
Originally Posted by Luap View Post

my ears ringing regularly after listening at home (and we were able to do that at my friend's house after an hour using Paradigm Studio 60s and a 120 Watt Denon receiver, with two SVS cylinder subs).

That was probably caused by the clipping the Denon was surely doing while driving 60s to respectable levels.
post #62 of 404
OP, you just need to get a pair of Mackie SR1530z and call it a day.

Link

$2k
Upgrade to $3.6K
post #63 of 404
Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

EDIT: In my modeling software, a 4th order LR crossed at 120 Hz reduces the driver excursion. however about 350 watts are required to bring the SPL up by just 6dB. while the crossover will protect the speaker from excursion damage, i don't think that it can handle that many watts RMS.

It doesn't have to handle 350 Watts RMS or even 350W peak.

1. Music and motion picture sound tracks always have some dynamic range to them. Although reference level Dolby digital may allow for 105dB SPL peaks, the average RMS level is only 74dB SPL (over a 1000:1 ratio) which is 1/10th Watt RMS with inefficient speakers. The loudness wars mean that popular CDs aren't doing too well these days with the average CD in 1985 having 18dB of dynamic range decreasing to 3dB (2:1) today although the difference is still there.

2. Perceived loudness comes from average reverberant volume, so outside a night club or party you're unlikely to turn those rock CDs up loud enough to cause problems. People also like to point out that SPL decreases with the square of distance so the SPL 1 meter from the speakers is 10dB higher than 3 meters out, but this disregards that the reverberant field dominates the total SPL once you get 2-4' from typical speakers in typical domestic rooms so the distance becomes irrelevant (When I got curious about this, I measured my amplifier outputs with a true RMS meter for ~75dB SPL).

3. The spectral balance of musical sources means that a lot of that energy isn't going to be in your higher frequency drivers. For a 300Hz cross-over point 2/3 of average power and 90% of peak power are coming from the woofer.
post #64 of 404
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuthed View Post

That was probably caused by the clipping the Denon was surely doing while driving 60s to respectable levels.

Turn that trance music down!


I like clipping!
post #65 of 404
I don't get it, if you want more slam at 50Hz, which falls squarely in the range of all subwoofers, why do you want your main speakers to have large woofers?

When I put together my first HT system I purchased an M&K system with a dual 12" sub. I too was disapointed at first with the impact of the sub, but then I realized that I was sitting in a null. So I had plenty of rumble down low, but no slam. Moving the sub and the seating position a couple of feet solved the problem.

Good luck!
post #66 of 404
Quote:
Originally Posted by hifisponge View Post

Moving the sub and the seating position a couple of feet solved the problem.

And where did things end up in the end to get the optimal result, if I may ask?
post #67 of 404
Here are another two that should meet the "Slam" + "HiFi" objective, but they don't come cheap!

http://www.legacyaudio.com/helixspecs.html

http://www.vmpsaudio.com/ST3.htm

There are also some multi-driver monsters from Kharma, Wisdom Audio, and Von Schweikert (VR-11) that are WAY more expensive but all fit into the slam + hi fidelity category. Although I also agree with one of the earlier posts mentioning that SPL's that high can't be good for your hearing in the long term.
post #68 of 404
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonomega View Post

OP, you just need to get a pair of Mackie SR1530z and call it a day.

Link

$2k
Upgrade to $3.6K

I was going to say the same thing. I've had a pair of 1530s and used them for music and movies, when they weren't being toted to shows. When they weren't throwing breakers they were unbelievable and could go numbingly, unbearably, impossibly loud. I wasn't into the gear so much then, we just knew we wanted to spend $2k and knew Mackie was the vendor for public announcement. 1500 watts per side!
post #69 of 404
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pibbo View Post

And where did things end up in the end to get the optimal result, if I may ask?


No problem. The sub made it into the right front corner and the couch moved two feet forward from where it was. Though of course, every room is different so you will need to experiment.

One old trick is to place the sub in the listening position (on the couch). Then play some bass-heavy music (or bass sweep tones) and get down on the floor and listen at each of the spots you can place your sub. Place the sub in the spot that has the smoothest, most extended and impactful bass. You may have to trade off one quality for the others though, as it can be tough to get all three.
post #70 of 404
Depending on the frequency and where the loudspeakers are situated I've found a few films to reach just over 105dbc above the 50Hz region. Die Hard with a Vengeance (1995) on dts laserdisc when all those dump trucks turn up on the scene.

Switch in the sub bass extension and it drops down lower and then turn on the :LFE.1 and depending when it cuts in adds an even lower response oh the laserdisc what fun.
post #71 of 404
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmichaelf View Post

I was going to say the same thing. I've had a pair of 1530s and used them for music and movies, when they weren't being toted to shows. When they weren't throwing breakers they were unbelievable and could go numbingly, unbearably, impossibly loud. I wasn't into the gear so much then, we just knew we wanted to spend $2k and knew Mackie was the vendor for public announcement. 1500 watts per side!

In a normal room, the speakers wont be even breaking 1 watt probably

I think they are all above 118db/1watt/1khz/1meter/2.83V
post #72 of 404
Quote:


That was probably caused by the clipping the Denon was surely doing while driving 60s to respectable levels.

Clipping don't cause ringing... volume causes ringing.
post #73 of 404
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonomega View Post

OP, you just need to get a pair of Mackie SR1530z and call it a day.

Link

$2k
Upgrade to $3.6K

I'm not sure if the quality of the sound on those will be up to par, but who knows, I'll try to find a way to hear them. They definitely do have some things going for them, with the internal bi-amping being a big one (and obviously big SPL being another).
post #74 of 404
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptainKellog View Post

Here are another two that should meet the "Slam" + "HiFi" objective, but they don't come cheap!

http://www.legacyaudio.com/helixspecs.html

http://www.vmpsaudio.com/ST3.htm

There are also some multi-driver monsters from Kharma, Wisdom Audio, and Von Schweikert (VR-11) that are WAY more expensive but all fit into the slam + hi fidelity category. Although I also agree with one of the earlier posts mentioning that SPL's that high can't be good for your hearing in the long term.

Great ideas. I forgot about Legacy. The Focus would probably do the trick and I know that they pop up on a....gon from time to time. I'll add them to the list.

The big VMPS are just way too expensive.

EDIT: The RM-40 look pretty sweet. I'll add them to the short list.
post #75 of 404
You may find this thread an interesting read.

The BIG stuff
post #76 of 404
Quote:
Originally Posted by Luap View Post

Clipping don't cause ringing... volume causes ringing.

Yeah, I know, loud rock concerts are very "clean" sounding.

You can have very loud music playing and never realize how loud it is, if its undistorted.

OTOH distorted/clipping music sounds a lot louder than it really is, and that is what gets my ears ringing.
post #77 of 404
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mysphyt View Post

You may find this thread an interesting read.

The BIG stuff

that's interesting because something like the jbl theatre system was something that i thought about (for lack of knowing about any of the other options). even though i have read quite a bit here, i didn't see that thread. thanks!
post #78 of 404
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuthed View Post

Yeah, I know, loud rock concerts are very "clean" sounding.

You can have very loud music playing and never realize how loud it is, if its undistorted.

OTOH distorted/clipping music sounds a lot louder than it really is, and that is what gets my ears ringing.

that's an interesting assertion and syncs up with lots of annecdotal evidence that many people actually *prefer* the sound of distorting subwoofers. i wonder if this is because the distortion makes the (otherwise incapable) subwoofer sound louder. do you have a good link or two on the concept of distorted bass/sub-bass is perceived louder than it is? (hehe, are we unlocking another aspect of the Bose trickery here as well?)
post #79 of 404
To the OP:

What do you consider the frequency range where the puncy midbass comes from?

30hz -> 150hz ; 30hz ->200hz?

I am thinking about adding a mackie HRS120 to my studio 100s for when a play HipHop/Rock/Techno..

Looked at the frequency response and is flat upto 150hz..

To bad they discontinued the HRS150..

http://www.mackie.com/products/hrs120/index.html
post #80 of 404
LTD02,

Great post! In fact, I STILL have my Pioneer CS-G403 speakers with 15” woofers. For $199/pair they have performed well for the past ~18 years. I am now upgrading my TV and don’t have physical space for 17.5 inch wide speakers.

I have been looking for the same “punch” that you are referring to – but I am constrained to maximum 10 inch wide speakers. My unsophisticated research to date brought me to Paradigm Studio 100’s (uses 3 7” bass drivers) paired with a subwoofer. Based on your research, what speakers would be on the top of your list considering an approximate budget of $3,000? I am also looking at B&W 703's.

Thanks.
post #81 of 404
Quote:
Originally Posted by TrzVpr View Post

To the OP:

What do you consider the frequency range where the puncy midbass comes from?

30hz -> 150hz ; 30hz ->200hz?

I am thinking about adding a mackie HRS120 to my studio 100s for when a play HipHop/Rock/Techno..

Looked at the frequency response and is flat upto 150hz..

To bad they discontinued the HRS150..

http://www.mackie.com/products/hrs120/index.html

TrzVpr -

Considering that you already own Paradigm Studio 100’s, that I am looking to purchase, is the MACKIE HRS120 your leading sub candidate? I was originally considering a Sunfire True Subwoofer EQ 10” sub, based on a friends recommendation and the built in mic/diagnostics capability AND small footprint, but I have not read much support for Sunfire in the forum…many more posts for SVS or HSU subs.
post #82 of 404
Quote:


Yeah, I know, loud rock concerts are very "clean" sounding.

This has nothing to do with the matter. I go to about one loud concert a year and if it's too loud I'll put in ear plugs, but I do like a certain amount of volume at a live show.

My point is that natural noises have all sorts of waveforms and your ear doesn't suddenly react differently if the amplifier has run out of steam and clipped the wave.

But whether the Denon was clipping, we'll never know, the volume was set to about -6. It seems to me that since digital volume levels are absolute, it would be good if some receiver manufacturers would guarantee that with the volume set below a certain level, the receiver will not clip when fed a digital signal when driving impedances of a certain range. This could be tested with digital signals at 0 db. The number may be different, depending on how many channels are driven, but it would be a nice way to know if you're using your equipment within its intended range.
post #83 of 404
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TrzVpr View Post

To the OP:

What do you consider the frequency range where the puncy midbass comes from?
30hz -> 150hz ; 30hz ->200hz?

somewhere in that range. from what i understand, 50-150/200 Hz is the key range for kick drum kick.

EDIT: After more research, it appeats that the fundamental at ~50-80Hz and the first harmonic at ~100-160Hz are the important frequencies for the kick drum, so 50-200Hz is probably a good "rule of thumb".
post #84 of 404
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by HTWatts View Post

LTD02,

Great post! In fact, I STILL have my Pioneer CS-G403 speakers with 15” woofers. For $199/pair they have performed well for the past ~18 years. I am now upgrading my TV and don’t have physical space for 17.5 inch wide speakers.

I have been looking for the same “punch” that you are referring to – but I am constrained to maximum 10 inch wide speakers. My unsophisticated research to date brought me to Paradigm Studio 100’s (uses 3 7” bass drivers) paired with a subwoofer. Based on your research, what speakers would be on the top of your list considering an approximate budget of $3,000? I am also looking at B&W 703's.

Thanks.

sounds like you are about to walk straight down the path that i did! just make sure that you get to listen to the studio 100s/sub with the music that you like otherwise you could be really disappointed because one point of this thread is that a key measurement of speaker performance (namely max, clean, SPL @50Hz) is woefully absent from most speaker manufacturer specs as well as most "expert" reviews/opinions. what is typically called "great bass" just isn't going to have any kick. 100s/sub may play low (which is great) and may play clean (which is great), but unless it can play loud (enough for you), it might not cut it on music with powerful midbass.

as for suggestions, i will continue to update the first page of the post with speakers that cut the midbass mustard at a reasonable price.
post #85 of 404
Quote:
Originally Posted by HTWatts View Post

TrzVpr -
Considering that you already own Paradigm Studio 100's, that I am looking to purchase, is the MACKIE HRS120 your leading sub candidate? I was originally considering a Sunfire True Subwoofer EQ 10 sub, based on a friends recommendation and the built in mic/diagnostics capability AND small footprint, but I have not read much support for Sunfire in the forummany more posts for SVS or HSU subs.

Let me begin by saying the Studio 100's are phenominal speakers.. Where they really shine is vocals.. They are the best sounding speaker I have heard so far.. Jazz is delight to listen too.. However, given their flat response, bass is not as 'strong' as I would hope for rap music/techno/rock etc.. The bass is reasonable if a add the bass response by +6db in the avr but I am not comfortable doing that long term..

I was originally looking at the Fathom 113 but its frequency response tappers off above 80-110 hz, too soon before 'punchy' bass..
I audiotioned one at my local dealer, it went deep, really deep and was super tight and clean but it wasnt 'exhilirating' for me, it didnt punch me in the chest..

I had an SVS PB13-Ultra but returned it due to amp problems, that and the 'ported' sound is not really for me.. At least not with the pb13..


I also have proaudio stuff and know about mackie which is why I am currently interested in them.. I really wanted the HRS150 but is has been discontinued.. Its Frequency response goes up to 200hz flat and can hit 122 db max spl.. Plus its a known good studio monitor..

Thats why im currently looking at the Hrs120, possible two for stereo config..

One is enough for Movies but I do 50/50 music and I love DeepHouse/Techno.. I need to feel the punch in the chest..

I have yet to audition these guys..
post #86 of 404
Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

sounds like you are about to walk straight down the path that i did! just make sure that you get to listen to the studio 100s/sub with the music that you like otherwise you could be really disappointed because one point of this thread is that a key measurement of speaker performance (namely max, clean, SPL @50Hz) is woefully absent from most speaker manufacturer specs as well as most "expert" reviews/opinions. what is typically called "great bass" just isn't going to have any kick. 100s/sub may play low (which is great) and may play clean (which is great), but unless it can play loud (enough for you), it might not cut it on music with powerful midbass.

as for suggestions, i will continue to update the first page of the post with speakers that cut the midbass mustard at a reasonable price.


Agreed, you should go to audition them to see if they are right for you..

For me, I am not disasspointed nor do I regret my purchase, they are the best sounding I have heard within my price range..

I just have to find the right sub that will also give me that punchy bass and midbass I want..
post #87 of 404
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by randytsuch1 View Post

This isn't a sub, freq response is 50-150Hz, not exactly subwoofer range.

Randy

the more that i research it, the more convinced i am becoming that the subwoofer is not a solution to the midbass.

this new device by hsu that randy pointed out has got to be in response to people like me who purchased sub/sat systems and are wondering "why isn't the bass kicking?"

also, on the hsu website, it is mentioned that "a woofer optimized for low bass reproduction is not the best for mid to upper bass reproduction. A heavy cone is best for low bass, but that reduces the mid to upper bass efficiency." can anyone help flush this idea out?
post #88 of 404
A subwoofer seems to me to be the place you went wrong. NHT SuperOnes have really fantastic and "punchy" midbass. The PS-1200 is a pretty mediocre sub. Now, SuperOne's don't go really really loud, but an ideal system would have multiple 12" subs with either 6" or 8" midbass drivers (2+ each) and working up from there. I think you made your main mistake with your first subwoofer, then have gone off in the wrong direction from there.
post #89 of 404
Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

the more that i research it, the more convinced i am becoming that the subwoofer is not a solution to the midbass.

I kindly disagree.
I have two Yorkville LS800P's and at half gain they push the air out of my lungs.. Of course we are comparing apples and oranges but they are subwoofers none the less.


Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

also, on the hsu website, it is mentioned that "a woofer optimized for low bass reproduction is not the best for mid to upper bass reproduction.

This would make more sense as most HomeTheater subwoofers have an expected operating range of 20hz-80hz where as audio subwoofers have a range from 50-150hz.. but have tons of spl in the midbass region..

Thats why Im thinking of the HRS120, it was designed not as a HT subwoofer but a studio monitor for mixing music where it is we want the punch in the chest..

That type of midbass is really not needed for movies and is lost in the xover..

Thoughts?
post #90 of 404
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alimentall View Post

A subwoofer seems to me to be the place you went wrong. NHT SuperOnes have really fantastic and "punchy" midbass. The PS-1200 is a pretty mediocre sub. Now, SuperOne's don't go really really loud, but an ideal system would have multiple 12" subs with either 6" or 8" midbass drivers (2+ each) and working up from there. I think you made your main mistake with your first subwoofer, then have gone off in the wrong direction from there.

thanks for the kind reply. if in your opinion SuperOne's have "punchy" midbass, then we are just two different genotypes.
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