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What happens to old 4:3 content in HD world?

post #1 of 15
Thread Starter 
This question has been bugging me, and I can't find what I consider a good answer anywhere on the net. This may be my search skills.

The new HD standards (and I'm lumping HD-DVD, Bluray, and HDTV here) are now 16:9. So now we don't lose (as much) resolution to letterboxing, as well as waste (as many) bits encoding the black areas. (Note, I am aware of the 2.35 etc. issues. Which is why I say "as much".)

But what about older material shot in 4:3. If we go back and rescan them in higher resolution do we now have to encode two "pillars" of black material into the stream?

I guess what I'm asking, is whether you have to brodcast (or encode for discs) the full width. Or can you tell the player (or TV) "this material is 4:3"? The old DVDs have this option, only in reverse, for anamorphic content.

This might be an obvious question, but it really has me wondering. I understand that there probably can be a different answer for HDTV, Bluray, and HD DVD.
post #2 of 15
It is called pillerboxing. And it is very common on HDTV if you watch something in OAR. It is either that or strech-o-vison. There are many conversions about this in forums about HDTV.
post #3 of 15
If the studio is smart, they pillarbox. Check out Casablanca or Robin Hood on HD DVD. Otherwise, blasphemy such as chopping off the top and bottom is required to fill the screen.
post #4 of 15
One From the Heart on D-Theater D-VHS is also PBX.
post #5 of 15
Pillarbox works.

On a larger screen like a 92 inch or 100 inch screen used with a front projector or a large 50" or better HDTV screen the visual impact of the black side pillars is insignificant.

Older 4:3 content , just like 2:35 content looks better and better the larger the screen size you have.

Actually with 4:3 content, since the height is relatively larger, the impact of the side pillars is less than the 2:35 letter bars on the top and bottom of the screen.

A 32 inch widescreen HDTV set shows 4:3 content pretty well. its just like a big 4:3 set.
post #6 of 15
Well at the moment they have to encode the black bars on both sides and that is how it gets played back (eg. on HD-DVD you would have to play it back like that, or maybe there is a button on your TV that could enlarge it if you didn't like the black bars. There's no button on HD-DVD players to do that).

I suppose there could be a 'reverse anamorphic' type mode for storing 4:3 high def content on HD-DVD, but whether they would use it I don't know and how much of an advantage it would be I don't know. At least I think they should tag the content as '4:3' and give you the option of playing it back the way you want it played back (eg. some people may want it played back with black bars, plasma owners might want it played back with grey bars, others might want it zoomed a bit so they don't have any black/grey bars or have smaller black bars, it should be up to the viewer how they want it played back, but stored on disc with the maximum possible resolution).
post #7 of 15
Even if they do have to be encoded, it's not a big deal. Encoding a completely black screen would only be a few kilobits/second at the ABSOLUTE maximum, so less than half a screen should be even less. Now compare that to the 3-30Mbps data rates for the whole video stream--it's not really a factor.
post #8 of 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by geko29 View Post

Even if they do have to be encoded, it's not a big deal. Encoding a completely black screen would only be a few kilobits/second at the ABSOLUTE maximum, so less than half a screen should be even less. Now compare that to the 3-30Mbps data rates for the whole video stream--it's not really a factor.

But shouldn't the viewer have the option of how it is played back (eg. colour of the bars, how much it is zoomed etc.). I don't own any high def 4:3 titles so I don't know if any do allow this but I assume not.

Also for projectors or for very large HDTVs (eg. future ones may allow >1920x1080), wouldn't storing it in some sort of 'reverse anamorphic' mode possibly allow a higher quality picture. Though maybe it would be better if the codecs allowed you to specify the aspect ratio of the content and the resolution (eg. specifiy that it is 4:3 and encoded at 1436x1080 - if that's the right res). The codecs should allow multiple resolutions and frame rates etc. as long as they don't go over the maximum bitrate of the format.
post #9 of 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Bloggs View Post

Also for projectors or for very large HDTVs (eg. future ones may allow >1920x1080), wouldn't storing it in some sort of 'reverse anamorphic' mode possibly allow a higher quality picture.

It would if you had a reverse anamorphic lens to go with it. like a vc lens turned sideways or some crazy crap like that. With the amount of HD content in 4:3 out there I can hardly see the point. I don't see anyone setting up a system that is that heavily optomized for HD 4:3. It does make sense to have 2.35:1 content encoded anamorphic as there are a small few with anamorphic lenses who would benifit a lot from this added resolution. For me it is all about 2.35:1 material. I don't move my lens for 4:3 or 16:9. I just squash the picture and sacrifice the resolution. I don't really watch enough 16:9 to care, and the kid doesn't notice when he watches animated titles. Note I watch all my content in OAR, I just don't move the lens. Sorry I got carried away.

My point is I don't think there is a point in encoding 4:3 to fit the frame and then squashing it back down again anyway.
post #10 of 15
I've been watching NBC news for the past couple of months because it's the only evening news broadcast in HD. Studio material is 16:9 while field video is 4:3. They do a nice job of showcasing the 4:3 stuff with a tastefully subdued graphic in place of the black bars. After a while you don't even notice that there is a mix of formats. I imagine it's better for displays as well - minimizing the burn in problem.

I'm not sure that would work as well for a classic movie, but it would be worth experimenting.

I've watched a few episodes of Hogan's Heros on HDNet and it looks quite good. I'm not sure how they are doing it but you would think it was recent 16:9 material.
post #11 of 15
Thread Starter 
I know about pillarboxing, I just wanted to know whether you had to encode the bars or whether you could save bandwidth (and storage space) by saying "this is 4:3". I realize that solid black encodes nicely, but the boundries don't, i.e. the line down each side between the picture and the bar. After all, sharp edges are where most encoding have the most trouble.

My interest is mostly academic. I agree that while you might go through the trouble to hook up an anamorphic lens for 2.35 material (movies) I can't imagine doing it for 4:3 material, which would be mostly older tv shows other shot for TV footage. Although weren't some of the really old movies shot in 4:3?

Mostly I was watching some SD content the other day and thinking how bad it looked, and wishing everything was broadcast in real HD (even the 480p stuff is noticable, although better). Then I was wondering whether the spec had taken into account that a lot of material out there is in 4:3, and whether we were going to have the reverse of the letterboxing problem as things moved to HD over the next 10 years or so.
post #12 of 15
Thread Starter 
Looking at my reply and the previous replies I got I want to be clear here. I understand the current options the studio/broadcasters use -- i.e. pillarboxing, stretching, chopping. I was wondering about the specification, or what is possible technically.

Everything I've read says there are four current HD modes, 480p, 720p, 1080i, 1080p. (I've also seen a couple odd ones thrown around like 540p, but they don't seem to be standard. Maybe I'm wrong. [Oh, and I also know some people call 1080i 540i, moving on. . .])

It just seems so odd to me that with about 80 years of footage in 4:3, the spec seems to ignore it completly. I applaud the move to 16:9, but why was the "legacy" 4:3 ignored as even an option? It's not like the manufacturers would have to add a lot to the display, it simply wouldn't use some pixals.
post #13 of 15
FWIW Changing the colour of the "black bars" could easily be implemented withing the authoring environmentthrough image overlay, thus wouldnt need a seperate re-encode.

As for how usefull it is - why would you want anything other than back?

As for having to encode the black bars - it adds so little to the overall bandwidth that it's simply not worth making the spec more complicated to accomodate it.
post #14 of 15
Why aren't you asking the same question about 2.35:1 content? Or all widescreen content for use on SD displays? There should be black pillar boxes used. Those with CRT/plasma displays (I'm CRT-er) should continue to watch a mix of content to prevent uneven wear.

Many widescreen displays can stretch 1080 content for those that think they're "wasting their TV" if it doesn't fill the entire screen.
post #15 of 15
If your watching law and order, stretch it. If you are watching Casablanca use the pillarbox. That's my view.
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