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Panasonic PT-AE2000u review - Page 3  

post #61 of 444
10/10/07 at 5:34pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lonely Surfer View Post

I had a Panasonic 1000 for a few days and thought it was a nice projector, but my complaints were: 1) not enough brightness (seems to have been corrected in the 2000) 2) too loud in terms of acoustic noise 3) typically mediocre LCD ANSI contrast. Can you address the last two points. Thanks.

That second point is interesting to me... could you comment on the 2000's noise?
thanks!

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post #62 of 444
10/10/07 at 5:39pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by elmalloc View Post

can you honestly say ALL units have 100% correct?

always unit variance...

If I were that paranoid, I'd get it checked, and if it weren't correct, I'd call up Panasonic that my unit is DEFECTIVE because color1 is supposed to be REC 709 compliant and isn't. Two hours of bitching on the phone is better than a half a$$ed attempt to do CMS, where even if you do have one, doesn't ever work right. I saw the demonstration about how the calibration took place. Panasonic has a special lab specifically designed to calibrate. Special Hollywood colorists all helped, one of them who worked on the color analysis on the 2000 was even at the demo, very knowledgeable and nice man. I don't care how good you are at measuring and then correcting, if it's wrong, then it's defective. Your unit should get 100% spot on pretty much. No matter how you do it, yours would not be as accurate. If your unit has variance, your equipment will have variance compared to what a proper unit does, so you're fixing something that's already broken to another broken state compared to a properly functioning unit.

Your other option is to get an RS1 or Black Pearl which won't get anywhere near the color accuracy anyway, and doesn't come with a CMS either for a hell of a lot more money.
post #63 of 444
10/10/07 at 5:40pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by darryl b View Post

does the 2000 have the holy grail, cms?

The CMS described is not a gamut respecification - it is the "pick a color and change it to your liking" - in other words a useless color replacement system. Does J6P really buy a PJ because they can make the green grass be purple?

Not sure a true CMS is really needed when it comes with several gamut presets to chose from.
post #64 of 444
10/10/07 at 5:42pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by elmalloc View Post

can you honestly say ALL units have 100% correct?

always unit variance...

Of course there are manufacturing tolerances on RGB filters used - but if someone is measuring gross error when their firmware is same as all the other firmware - then their sensor or calibration software should be suspect.
post #65 of 444
10/10/07 at 5:45pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by GrantMeThePower View Post

That second point is interesting to me... could you comment on the 2000's noise?
thanks!

I didn't hear anything and the 2000 projector was right in my right ear. I do have slight tinnitus in my left ear, so take it for what that's worth.
post #66 of 444
10/10/07 at 5:58pm
Reio-ta and Daniel. Thx. v. much for the insightful observations on the AE2000.

I'd very much appreciate it if you could delve into as much detail as possible on:

1. The implementation and visible impact of the iris (relative comparisons to the Pearl and other DI equipped PJs - even if based on memory - would be useful)

2. Your impressions of ANSI contrast and image pop (typically a shortcoming of LCD technology).

Thx.
post #67 of 444
10/10/07 at 6:01pm
the comments make me want to switch from my rs1.
hopefully there will be a shoot-out of with the ae2000, rs1, epson and the sony.
post #68 of 444
10/10/07 at 6:09pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zenjabil View Post

Reio-ta and Daniel. Thx. v. much for the insightful observations on the AE2000.

I'd very much appreciate it if you could delve into as much detail as possible on:

1. The implementation and visible impact of the iris (relative comparisons to the Pearl and other DI equipped PJs - even if based on memory - would be useful)

2. Your impressions of ANSI contrast and image pop (typically a shortcoming of LCD technology).

Thx.

I posted an update to the review talking about the auto iris. So if you want a little more information look at the auto iris section.

1) The auto iris on the Pearl for example causes the image to sometimes look hazy, when in mixed scenes. If an image is super bright, like when I saw a baseball game on ESPN-HD, the really bright sun and white white uniforms in the sun, didn't look quite right. In the demo at Panasonic on the 2000 there was an outdoor scene shown with this woman singing opera outside in the sun on a hill. Very bright and I saw nothing amiss.

2) In a really dark scene of New York at night from an above view, the lights looked a nice golden orange to proper pale yellows of the illuminated buildings and cars driving by. In Pirates, the bow of the ship looks like it's sailing right at you, which I noticed. I didn't really notice, but my wife said when the opera singer was singing on stage in the Panasonic hard disk drive clip, when the lady switched to color1, it was like the image changed to where you could reach out and grab her.

Does that help?
post #69 of 444
10/10/07 at 6:17pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by krasmuzik View Post

The CMS described is not a gamut respecification - it is the "pick a color and change it to your liking" - in other words a useless color replacement system. Does J6P really buy a PJ because they can make the green grass be purple?

Not sure a true CMS is really needed when it comes with several gamut presets to chose from.

Kras in the past I've played with an AX100 to simulate a CMS. It had a feature where you could capture the color from a specific point of the onscreen image using a crosshair and adjust it like a CMS.

Instead of using a movie image I displayed a full field of each RGBCYM from an AVIA dvd and stored them in the projector's memory. Then calling up and adjusting them to manipulate the color points on the CIE gamut during calibration and then save that final result as a preset.

I suppose you could also use a signal generator instead of Avia if you had one handy (I didn't).

What's your opinion on simulating a CMS this way ?
post #70 of 444
10/10/07 at 6:28pm
"2) In a really dark scene of New York at night from an above view, the lights looked a nice golden orange to proper pale yellows of the illuminated buildings and cars driving by. In Pirates, the bow of the ship looks like it's sailing right at you, which I noticed. I didn't really notice, but my wife said when the opera singer was singing on stage in the Panasonic hard disk drive clip, when the lady switched to color1, it was like the image changed to where you could reach out and grab her."

The preceding didn't directly address ANSI contrast. I thought the 1000 had image pop in a lot of the scenes I watched, but in scenes with mixed contrast, such as dark objects in a backlit shot, the objects tended to wash out much more than on my cheaper DLP projector (Optoma HD70). With the advances in LCD performance to this point, ANSI contrast is still a major weakness. Did you notice any scenes where you might comment on this?
post #71 of 444
10/10/07 at 6:32pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by reio-ta View Post

Page 52:
Manual zoom and focus!

Disappointing that they dropped the motorized zoom and focus this time around. Wonder why.

I was looking forward to this feature in my new setup, handy to have when ceiling mounted.
post #72 of 444
10/10/07 at 7:22pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe_Black View Post

Disappointing that they dropped the motorized zoom and focus this time around. Wonder why.

I was looking forward to this feature in my new setup, handy to have when ceiling mounted.

i think that is a typo in the spec list. the rest of the manual indicates power zoom and focus.
post #73 of 444
10/10/07 at 7:32pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by reio-ta View Post

I posted an update to the review talking about the auto iris. So if you want a little more information look at the auto iris section.

1) The auto iris on the Pearl for example causes the image to sometimes look hazy, when in mixed scenes. If an image is super bright, like when I saw a baseball game on ESPN-HD, the really bright sun and white white uniforms in the sun, didn't look quite right. In the demo at Panasonic on the 2000 there was an outdoor scene shown with this woman singing opera outside in the sun on a hill. Very bright and I saw nothing amiss.

2) In a really dark scene of New York at night from an above view, the lights looked a nice golden orange to proper pale yellows of the illuminated buildings and cars driving by. In Pirates, the bow of the ship looks like it's sailing right at you, which I noticed. I didn't really notice, but my wife said when the opera singer was singing on stage in the Panasonic hard disk drive clip, when the lady switched to color1, it was like the image changed to where you could reach out and grab her.

Does that help?


Thx. I take it you found the impact of the its less 'intrusive' than is the case w/ other PJs. That is helpful.

Can you comment more specifically about ANSI contrast and the apparent contrast b/w brightly lit objects against dark backgrounds for eg. ANSI is not the same thing as image depth which is what I think you're implying in your impressions of the ship's bow and opera singer (used to have great image depth w/ my supposedly ANSI poor Sony G70 CRT PJ), but I do find ANSI to be a reasonably good proxy for image 'pop' (where pop is not quite the same thing as depth, though the former does assist the latter). I'm not expecting DLP level pop, but views on how ANSI and pop compare (in RELATIVE terms) to other PJs (esp other LCD, DiLA, & SXRD PJs) would be quite helpful.
post #74 of 444
10/10/07 at 10:27pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zenjabil View Post

Thx. I take it you found the impact of the its less 'intrusive' than is the case w/ other PJs. That is helpful.

Can you comment more specifically about ANSI contrast and the apparent contrast b/w brightly lit objects against dark backgrounds for eg. ANSI is not the same thing as image depth which is what I think you're implying in your impressions of the ship's bow and opera singer (used to have great image depth w/ my supposedly ANSI poor Sony G70 CRT PJ), but I do find ANSI to be a reasonably good proxy for image 'pop' (where pop is not quite the same thing as depth, though the former does assist the latter). I'm not expecting DLP level pop, but views on how ANSI and pop compare (in RELATIVE terms) to other PJs (esp other LCD, DiLA, & SXRD PJs) would be quite helpful.

Shows ANSI contrast.



The patches between the fog is super bright wreck havoc on low ANSI displays because the low light near the bow casting a shadow on the ship, such an image doesn't show a nice picture on most LCDs. On the 2000, it was no problem. The image of the singer on stage had her brightly lit, while the audience members where in shadows. The singer looked natural and "pop", while at the same time the members in the audience were still visible without any crushing.
post #75 of 444
10/10/07 at 10:44pm
Thread Starter 
http://panasonic.co.jp/pavc/global/p...d/ae2000ul.pdf

That says power zoom and focus.

http://panasonic.co.jp/pavc/global/p...AE2000U_En.pdf

While that says only manual zoom and focus!

WTF!
post #76 of 444
10/11/07 at 4:04am
Quote:
Originally Posted by reio-ta View Post

http://panasonic.co.jp/pavc/global/p...d/ae2000ul.pdf

That says power zoom and focus.

http://panasonic.co.jp/pavc/global/p...AE2000U_En.pdf

While that says only manual zoom and focus!

WTF!

I hope it is manual.BOB
post #77 of 444
10/11/07 at 4:05am
Quote:
Originally Posted by reio-ta View Post

I like how the 2000 will take a 1080i60 3:2 signal and with the cinema reality function set to on, will automatically detect cadence and output a true 24p signal!

Does anyone know for sure how this "Cinema reality" feature is implemented in Panny. I ask, because this feature is also on AE1000U/E projector. When I first tried it in summer I thought it was doing 1080i60 -> 1080p24 conversion and displaying image at the multiple of 24 as it does for direct 1080p24 input. However, I later read from some review that this might not be the case. I have noticed that when "CR" is activated I can see jaggies from time to time only in removable subtitles but not in the image itself. Player is set to output 1080i60. Otherwise this "CR" feature won't be even active in the menus. These jaggies in subtitles go away when "CR" is deactivated. I wonder if it has something to do with the way HD DVD player generates overlays (like subtitles). Subtitles are maybe generated as true 1080i60 video and activating "CR" cannot remove cadence from video subtitles as it does for 24p film image. I'm trying to say that image is mixed film and video when subtitles or IME is present.

Anyway, how "CR" actually works and is there dirrerences in it between AE1000 and AE2000?

Below is a screen cap of page 33 of AE1000 manual. This is very similar to what is told about "CR" in AE2000 manual. Sorry for the OT.
LL
LL
post #78 of 444
10/11/07 at 4:09am
Thanks for all the reports and updates reio-ta. This projector looks like it may fit my room perfectly and for much less than I was planning on spending.
post #79 of 444
10/11/07 at 6:09am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ric97 View Post

Here is a humble question: what type of screen (120" 14ft away) would you recommend for the AE2000? That is for a total dark (light controlled) room.
Yeah, I'm an amateur...sorry to be a distraction.

Thank you Daniel, Reio-ta and all for your help...both of you recomend 1.3 gain screens...will I have a problem with viewing angles? 22 feet long and 14.5 feet wide...also the room has 3 dark red walls with flat black ceiling and front wall.

I know this is not the place for this, but I am tired of banging my head against the wall trying to figure it out. I am grateful for your informative comments.

I am sold on the AE2000 with a 106" screen of some sort...THANK YOU!!!
post #80 of 444
10/11/07 at 7:13am
Quote:
Originally Posted by hlindstr View Post

Does anyone know for sure how this "Cinema reality" feature is implemented in Panny. I ask, because this feature is also on AE1000U/E projector. When I first tried it in summer I thought it was doing 1080i60 -> 1080p24 conversion and displaying image at the multiple of 24 as it does for direct 1080p24 input. However, I later read from some review that this might not be the case. I have noticed that when "CR" is activated I can see jaggies from time to time only in removable subtitles but not in the image itself. Player is set to output 1080i60. Otherwise this "CR" feature won't be even active in the menus. These jaggies in subtitles go away when "CR" is deactivated. I wonder if it has something to do with the way HD DVD player generates overlays (like subtitles). Subtitles are maybe generated as true 1080i60 video and activating "CR" cannot remove cadence from video subtitles as it does for 24p film image. I'm trying to say that image is mixed film and video when subtitles or IME is present.

Anyway, how "CR" actually works and is there dirrerences in it between AE1000 and AE2000?

Below is a screen cap of page 33 of AE1000 manual. This is very similar to what is told about "CR" in AE2000 manual. Sorry for the OT.

if i had to guess, i would say you are right about the hd dvd player generating overlays (that is, its not paying attention to 24p cadence). you might want to post this question in the hd dvd player forum if you haven't already.
post #81 of 444
10/11/07 at 7:55am
Daniel,

You mentioned that the AE2000 definitely appeared brighter than the RS1 and Pearl. What do you base this opinion on? What was the image size and gain of the screen used to demo the AE2000? I really hope that the AE2000 is brighter than the RS1, however, I would be very surprised if this was the case with the AE2000 set to Cinema 1 or Color 1.
post #82 of 444
10/11/07 at 8:14am
Hey Guys I Have A Pt Ax 100 And Its Just Got God Awful Yellowy Neon Greens And I Just Can't Get Rid Of Them ,any Suggestions On How To Deal With This?

I Hope To Get A Jvc Rs 1 But Now Im Not So Sure As Apparently Samsungs 710ae 720p Projector Has More Accurate Colours Than Any Other Projector Either 720 Or 1080p Under 10k

And Now Samsung Has Just Brouht Out The 800 Model Which Is 1080p And Again Has Joe Kanes Colouring Assistance.

I Hear The Primary And Secondary Colours On The Rs 1 Are Awful So I Dont Want To Upgrade From The Pt Ax 100 Only To Get More **** Colours

Dont Care Too Much About Brightness As Ive Got A Dark Room With Matt Black Paint And Black Curtains And A Window With Black Out Blinds Plus Drapes So I Have A Prett Well Controlled Batcave

Maybe I Should Just Wait Till Next Year To See Who Comes Out On Top ,any Thoughts Anyone?

And What Can I Do About That Sickly Green On My Pt Ax 100?
Is The Solution Perhaps In The Gamma Or Other Controls?
post #83 of 444
10/11/07 at 8:19am
Sounds like the 2000 might be right up your street. Btw, did you Painstakingly Capitalise Every First Letter Of Every Word In Your Post or was it some word processor gone mad?
post #84 of 444
10/11/07 at 8:21am
Quote:
Originally Posted by reio-ta View Post

Panasonic wasn't indirect at all, which is a shock considering she is Japanese. She bluntly said how she couldn't believe they ever sold the 1000 and the Smooth Screen in the 2000 was nothing like the 1000 in any fashion.

This seems a slap in the face to all AE1000 owners. Does this mean that the projector is defective? Sub-standard? Seems like I could use this quote to argue for a replacement or my money back. I really can't believe that Panasonic would denigrate a previous product in order to promote another. Certainly point out improvements, that's to be expected-but don't make people feel like idiots for purchasing last year's model. Thanks Panasonic...
post #85 of 444
10/11/07 at 8:32am
With the preliminary info, where would one rank this machine in terms of light output comparing it with rs1/2, HD81-LV and IN82?
post #86 of 444
10/11/07 at 10:09am
Thank you for the review!

I've said in the past I'd never buy another LCD PJ, but it sounds like they might actually be getting their act together. Dead pixels, uniformity, and dust are still major concerns for me regarding LCD. I believe you've tried to address my first two concerns, but I didn't notice anything about how this PJ will prevent dust issues... other than an air filter which we all know won't keep the dust-bunnies away forever. Was dust addressed at the presentation?

After owning the pitifully inaccurate JVC RS1, the possibility of correcting the colors on any future PJ I buy is a MUST. I'm very excited to see manufactures offering spot-on PJs. Maybe someday the folks at JVC will take notice that not everyone wants to watch cartoons 24/7.

Thanks again for the review. I'm very excited to see one of the new D7 PJs in the coming months. I have to admit... the Epson 1080UB looks mighty tempting, as does this Panny.
post #87 of 444
10/11/07 at 10:10am
Quote:
Originally Posted by dbh1960 View Post

This seems a slap in the face to all AE1000 owners. Does this mean that the projector is defective? Sub-standard? Seems like I could use this quote to argue for a replacement or my money back. I really can't believe that Panasonic would denigrate a previous product in order to promote another. Certainly point out improvements, that's to be expected-but don't make people feel like idiots for purchasing last year's model. Thanks Panasonic...

This is the case with any gadget/techie product (iPhones, HD DVD, PCs, Video Cards, etc.), they improve a lot each year. Just because the SALES person was emphatic doesn't mean that Panasonic is bad company. Hardly the case as AE1000 was a good deal at the time compared to other projectors. Personally I wish JVC had done the same giant leap with RS2 as they did with RS1, etc.

I for one am glad to see technology move at this pace. Faster the better.
post #88 of 444
10/11/07 at 10:24am
dbh1960

I wouldnt take their comments that serious. It is an improvement over the AE1000 but you can say that about any projector company when they replace one unit for another. Last year they were ga-ga over the AE1000 and its not like they did it in a vacuum. They were able to compare with other 1080p projectors and they were happy with it. I am think they are impressed with how much improvement they were able to do with the AE2000
post #89 of 444
10/11/07 at 10:31am
Quote:
Originally Posted by gkfisher View Post

This is the case with any gadget/techie product (iPhones, HD DVD, PCs, Video Cards, etc.), they improve a lot each year. Just because the SALES person was emphatic doesn't mean that Panasonic is bad company. Hardly the case as AE1000 was a good deal at the time compared to other projectors. Personally I wish JVC had done the same giant leap with RS2 as they did with RS1, etc.

I for one am glad to see technology move at this pace. Faster the better.

Bull----. The salesperson should always keep in mind that there may be owners of the previous model in any demo of a new product. Everyone expects improvements. To say that the company made a mistake by releasing the previous model (because that's indeed what she is saying) is just wrong-and I believe actionable. I'm thinking of writing to Panasonic with a link to this thread and demanding an explanation. ~$3000.00 is too much money to spend to have somebody who represents the corporation essentially belittle the product-especially when that product is still on the market.
post #90 of 444
10/11/07 at 10:33am
Quote:
You mentioned that the AE2000 definitely appeared brighter than the RS1 and Pearl. What do you base this opinion on? What was the image size and gain of the screen used to demo the AE2000? I really hope that the AE2000 is brighter than the RS1, however, I would be very surprised if this was the case with the AE2000 set to Cinema 1 or Color 1.

didnt ask what screen they were using, but if I remember correctly its studiotek 130 and the screen size was 100 diag. Again I didnt ask, but I have seen their demos for3 or 4 years and they are always 100 diag.

As for brightness, its my impression only as I didnt have anything to compare it with. However, reio-ta in his review even made the comment that the picture was too bright for him. Is it a light cannon like the old PLV-70 no, but my guess would be that out of the box it will be brighter.

Once you calibrate it, things can change. I had one guy who told me that after calibrating his AX-100 which has 2000 lumens out of the box, he wound up with 700-800 lumens.
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