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Project Quick, Easy & Cheap – IXL18.4 LLT - Page 3

post #61 of 192
10/29/07 at 6:46pm
Thread Starter 
What's everyone running internal to their subwoofer for speaker wire?

I've got about 15 feet of 12ga left over from a Parts Express SoundKing spool. I'm thinking this should be suffice? Or some folks running 10 ga?
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post #62 of 192
10/29/07 at 6:55pm
I typically run 10 but really 12 is adequate. You can always run two strands if you are worried about it.
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post #63 of 192
10/29/07 at 7:29pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mynym View Post

Also wanted to report that I ended up returning my Craftsman router to Sears opting to get a more powerful 2 1/4 Skil 1825 with the multiple base sets (fixed/plunge). I had a $10 off coupon and the router was only $89 which brought the price to $79. I figured for an extra $20 it was worth getting a more powerful router with variable speed and multiple bases.


I got that same router combo from Skilshop for $69 shipped, refurb.
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post #64 of 192
10/30/07 at 9:07am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Willd View Post

I got that same router combo from Skilshop for $69 shipped, refurb.

You're partially responsible for the reason I bought the Skil 1825. I saw your results and was happy and noted the router you had used.

I wasn't able to purchase it at the refurb price like you did but I thought for $79 it's a good investment knowing I'm going to need a fixed based router and variable speed down the road.
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post #65 of 192
11/4/07 at 4:44pm
Thread Starter 
Another busy Sunday. Kinda pissed at some of the results though




Yesterday I bound two 3/4"x24"x22.5" MDF pieces together to create the double baffle for the IXL18.4.

I crafted up a DIY circle jig using 1/4" MDF, drilling holes for the router base and measured out exactly 8 5.5/16ths which will create the hole for the subwoofer (16 11/16ths).

I used some scrap MDF and tested my circle jig and did a dry fit on my IXL. It Fit perfect.

So at this point I thought I was home free. Should be easy, right?

I then took my double ply 1.5" baffle and drilled a hole all the way through both pieces of bound MDF exactly in the center. I screwed in my DIY baffle using a 1" drywall screw just as I did previously in my first circle test. I proceeded to create a nice circle on on the first side going half way through the baffle using a 1/4" x 1" straight router bit. The circle looked perfect.


I then flipped over the double baffle and did the same thing, screwing into the existing pilot hole I created earlier and again went around creating a circle from the other side.

What I ended up with was 2 mis-aligned circles. The circles are Aligned perfectly on the north and south side but off about 1/4" west and east if that helps explain it better.


I can't for the life of me figure out why or how this happened. Am I missing something here? The only thing I can think of is perhaps the pilot hole I drilled was a little crooked? I remember when I was drilling it, ensuring it was as straight as my eyeball could see.

How is everyone creating thick baffles here?

Any help/insight would be greatly appreciated.

Here are some pics that help explain it better:





My circle jig
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post #66 of 192
11/4/07 at 5:28pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mynym View Post

I can't for the life of me figure out why or how this happened. Am I missing something here?

Mynym, what happened was that when you drilled through the two pieces together, the drill bit was not perfectly plumb [90 degrees all four directions - N,S,E,W]. The bit being slightly off as it came thru, placed your center off by 1/8". You just need to cut a new one for the back side.

Warmon -
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post #67 of 192
11/4/07 at 6:00pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Warmon View Post

Mynym, what happened was that when you drilled through the two pieces together, the drill bit was not perfectly plumb [90 degrees all four directions - N,S,E,W]. The bit being slightly off as it came thru, placed your center off by 1/8". You just need to cut a new one for the back side.

Warmon -

Hmm. How do I get the screw in perfectly at 90 degrees? Do they make 1.5" straight bits? That may make life easier, 1 pass.

Also, what do you mean by: "cut a new one for the back side"?
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post #68 of 192
11/4/07 at 6:05pm
The same thing has happened to me in the past. I now predrill a tiny pilot hole in the MDF first and use a finishing nail to hold the router jig. I also bought a router bit that is 2 inches long so I can cut through both pieces from the same side. I haven't had a problem since.
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post #69 of 192
11/4/07 at 6:28pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mynym View Post

I can't for the life of me figure out why or how this happened. Am I missing something here? The only thing I can think of is perhaps the pilot hole I drilled was a little crooked? I remember when I was drilling it, ensuring it was as straight as my eyeball could see.

How is everyone creating thick baffles here?

I sincerely doubt the pilot hole was drilled so crooked as to produce the result you got. Here is my theory: you cut the first hole with no problems because the inner part of the circle that holds the pivot point was still glued to the other panel (which was still fully in tact). When you flipped the baffle over and cut the 2nd circle, the pivot point did not stay "anchored" in place as you cut the circle. The inner part of the circle will start to move around as you take away material, especially toward the end of the circle cut.

This happened to me a few times. I did two things to mitigate the problem. First, I clamped a junk piece of MDF to my work piece and drilled the pilot hole all the way down into the junk piece. I stuck the 1/8" pivot pin I was using all the way through the work piece into the junk piece, so the inner circle would stay located on the underlying "junk" piece. The second thing I did was to make the circle cut roughly half a circle at a time, leaving a 1/4" of material on opposite sides of the circle to keep the inner "disc" part stable. Then I very carefully remove the last little bits to complete the circle.

The baffle I made is two layers (of 3/4" MDF) thick but I cut one circle significantly smaller than the other. The smaller circle (about 16 5/8") is where the driver ubwoofer bolts up to. The larger circle was made big enough to accommodate the outer/overal diameter of the driver (18.4" if I recall). I cut the two holes independently of each other and then glued the two boards together carefully. Luckily, I wasn't too far off in my measurements and they lined up pretty well.
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post #70 of 192
11/4/07 at 6:57pm
Looking at this again, I see you're using a screw for the pivot pin. That's half the problem right there. Uklit is right, you need to be using a nail...preferably a roofing nail. When I did mine, I used X & Y axis and did both separately. I cut just over half way thru and then cut the inside out with the jig saw. Then flip it over and use a flush trim bit on the router.

Warmon -
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post #71 of 192
11/4/07 at 7:14pm
Yes, and you might be further ahead in the long run to simply purchase a circle jig. I made about a half dozen similiar errors before I broke down and bought a real jig. I just wish I had done that soooo much sooner and saved myself a lot of hassles and wasted wood.

Of course, what you are doing will work fine when you work out the kinks. It just leaves the possibility of an error at any time. If you plan on doing any more projects...
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post #72 of 192
11/4/07 at 7:23pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by btp View Post

I sincerely doubt the pilot hole was drilled so crooked as to produce the result you got. Here is my theory: you cut the first hole with no problems because the inner part of the circle that holds the pivot point was still glued to the other panel (which was still fully in tact). When you flipped the baffle over and cut the 2nd circle, the pivot point did not stay "anchored" in place as you cut the circle. The inner part of the circle will start to move around as you take away material, especially toward the end of the circle cut.

This happened to me a few times. I did two things to mitigate the problem. First, I clamped a junk piece of MDF to my work piece and drilled the pilot hole all the way down into the junk piece. I stuck the 1/8" pivot pin I was using all the way through the work piece into the junk piece, so the inner circle would stay located on the underlying "junk" piece. The second thing I did was to make the circle cut roughly half a circle at a time, leaving a 1/4" of material on opposite sides of the circle to keep the inner "disc" part stable. Then I very carefully remove the last little bits to complete the circle.

The baffle I made is two layers (of 3/4" MDF) thick but I cut one circle significantly smaller than the other. The smaller circle (about 16 5/8") is where the driver ubwoofer bolts up to. The larger circle was made big enough to accommodate the outer/overal diameter of the driver (18.4" if I recall). I cut the two holes independently of each other and then glued the two boards together carefully. Luckily, I wasn't too far off in my measurements and they lined up pretty well.


A light just went on in my head. I believe this is my problem. I didn't even think of it but you are absolutely right.

ARRGGG..

I'm now contemplating using a single piece of MDF for my baffle instead of a double. Think this would cause a problem? Or should I really be using a double baffle?

Also, regarding my usage of a screw vs a nail. I can see how a screw could cause some minor movement too as you rotate.

Thanks guys for your insight.
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post #73 of 192
11/4/07 at 7:25pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jpmst3 View Post

Yes, and you might be further ahead in the long run to simply purchase a circle jig. I made about a half dozen similiar errors before I broke down and bought a real jig. I just wish I had done that soooo much sooner and saved myself a lot of hassles and wasted wood.

Of course, what you are doing will work fine when you work out the kinks. It just leaves the possibility of an error at any time. If you plan on doing any more projects...

Point taken. Do you know if the Jasper 200 jig comes with a pin or do you have to use a nail?

Also, I have heard the Jasper 200 jigs only support 1/4" router bits. All of my bits are 1/2" Is there an offset calculation that you can use that supports 1/2" bits?
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post #74 of 192
11/4/07 at 7:34pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Uklit View Post

The same thing has happened to me in the past. I now predrill a tiny pilot hole in the MDF first and use a finishing nail to hold the router jig. I also bought a router bit that is 2 inches long so I can cut through both pieces from the same side. I haven't had a problem since.

Where did you end up finding a router bit that is 2 inches long? Longest I could find was 1.5" but the diameter was 1/2" diameter:

http://www.mlcswoodworking.com/shops.../bt_strai.html
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post #75 of 192
11/4/07 at 7:38pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mynym View Post

Point taken. Do you know if the Jasper 200 jig comes with a pin or do you have to use a nail?

Also, I have heard the Jasper 200 jigs only support 1/4" router bits. All of my bits are 1/2" Is there an offset calculation that you can use that supports 1/2" bits?

I don't remember if it came with a pin. I just used a pin I had lying around, I think a shelf pin. The holes are calibrated for a 1/4" bit. But, you can measure and just pick the appropriate hole.
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post #76 of 192
11/4/07 at 7:39pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mynym View Post

Point taken. Do you know if the Jasper 200 jig comes with a pin or do you have to use a nail?

Also, I have heard the Jasper 200 jigs only support 1/4" router bits. All of my bits are 1/2" Is there an offset calculation that you can use that supports 1/2" bits?

I have the small and large Jasper jigs (that Parts Express sells) and they both use a 1/8" thick steel dowel pin. I'd guess the pin is about 1.5" long. You can use a 1/2" cutting bit if you want but it will pulverize twice the amount of MDF material and make twice the amount of dust. That to me is the biggest reason not to use the 1/2" thick cutting bit!

That said... the Jasper 200 and 400 jigs will accommodate it just fine. Just don't bother with the little plastic "calibration disc" which has a 1/4" hole in the center and therefore won't work to center the jig with the bit. The jig circle diameters assume a 1/4" bit. If you use a 1/2" bit, your radius increases by 1/4" so I think your circles will be 1/2" larger in diameter. But I'd definitely do a sample cut and measure it to be sure.
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post #77 of 192
11/4/07 at 7:41pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mynym View Post

Where did you end up finding a router bit that is 2 inches long? Longest I could find was 1.5" but the diameter was 1/2" diameter:

http://www.mlcswoodworking.com/shops.../bt_strai.html

If you sink the pin through both panels/layers you can adjust the router bit so it is extends down further so you can cut through both panels
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post #78 of 192
11/4/07 at 7:46pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mynym View Post

A light just went on in my head. I believe this is my problem. I didn't even think of it but you are absolutely right.

ARRGGG..

We've all had those moments. This is what's called a learning experience.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mynym View Post

I'm now contemplating using a single piece of MDF for my baffle instead of a double. Think this would cause a problem? Or should I really be using a double baffle?

As you may have seen, I didn't make the entire front baffle double thickness. I just made a baffle reinforcement panel that the driver actually bolts to. This adds some strength and recesses the driver by 3/4".

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...7#post12014957

Seemed like the best compromise. It all ties into the bracing too, so the box is pretty strong in that area around the driver.
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post #79 of 192
11/4/07 at 8:37pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mynym View Post

Where did you end up finding a router bit that is 2 inches long? Longest I could find was 1.5" but the diameter was 1/2" diameter:

http://www.mlcswoodworking.com/shops.../bt_strai.html

Here is 1/2 inch diameter by 2 inches long

http://routerbitworld.com/Freud_12_1...d%2012-128.htm

and here is 1/2 inch diameter by 2 1/2 inches long

http://routerbitworld.com/Freud_12_1...d%2012-130.htm
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post #80 of 192
11/10/07 at 8:20am
Thread Starter 
So I am going to mount the driver on a double thick 3/4" baffle.

I see many folks are using these:


http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showd...number=260-776

along with the hurricain nuts to secure the driver to the baffle.

My only concern with these bolts is will they be long enough?

The description states:

Kit includes eight 1-1/2" thread length cap screws with 10-32 threads and eight self piercing spiked "T" nuts. Works well with up to 1" cabinet thickness.



From the picture the thread length appears to be 80% of the length of the bolt + an additional non-threaded part. I am wondering if these will work with a double 3/4" thickness baffle?

Does anyone have these and can confirm ?

I also ended up buying a 1.5" cutting surface x 1/2" straight router bit from MLS Woodworking on sale for $8.95 including shipping. It bought it Tuesday and arrived Friday. Pretty fast shipping.
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post #81 of 192
11/10/07 at 8:36am
I have a set of those screws. I don't think they will reach through two layers of 3/4" and the thickness of the driver's mounting flange. Just the MDF part eats up the 1.5" of screw. Since the T-nut gets pressed into the wood, you get a little bit of length back, but I imagine that would be largely offset by the thickness of the driver's mounting flange. In this case, you MIGHT be able to get the screw threaded into the nut, but no way it would be able to thread all the way in and have the strength and holding power it should.

There are lots places online and probably some local hardware/fastener specialty shops you can get longer screws if you really want to put it through two pieces of MDF. 10-32 cap screws are fairly standard/common.

Also, I was advised to use the "Hurricane" style T-nuts. Seems like they are easier on the MDF than the ones pictured. I drill a hole using a .26" bit (.01 over the recommended 1/4") and pushed them right into the MDF. No problems other than it being a real b!tch to get the screws threaded into the T-nuts. The threads are small and they seem kind of finicky, for lack of a better word.
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post #82 of 192
11/10/07 at 8:53am
Thread Starter 
Thanks for the heads up.

I remember seeing some of these machine bolts at my Local HD. I wasn't sure if the head on them was large enough so the head wouldn't slip through the holes in the cast frame on the driver.

Off hand do you know what the diameter of the head on these bolts is?

Thanks for all your help.
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post #83 of 192
11/10/07 at 8:58am
I have used the same bolts and they have gone through two sheets of 3/4" plywood and stuck out the end of the nut about 1/4" when torqued down. I did use the "pro" version of the nuts, I think the steel is just a little stronger. They are darker in color, I believe from PE. I did have a little trouble with the threads getting crossed when the holes were not perfectly aligned with the shiny nuts.
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post #84 of 192
11/10/07 at 9:03am
Hmmmm... just to be sure, I'll go measure them with the caliper and post a picture. "Be back in a bit."
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post #85 of 192
11/10/07 at 9:13am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jpmst3 View Post

I have used the same bolts and they have gone through two sheets of 3/4" plywood and stuck out the end of the nut about 1/4" when torqued down. I did use the "pro" version of the nuts, I think the steel is just a little stronger. They are darker in color, I believe from PE. I did have a little trouble with the threads getting crossed when the holes were not perfectly aligned with the shiny nuts.

Interesting, where did you get the pro version of the hurricane nuts? All I could find on PE were the standard:

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showd...umber=081-1082
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post #86 of 192
11/10/07 at 9:13am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by btp View Post

Hmmmm... just to be sure, I'll go measure them with the caliper and post a picture. "Be back in a bit."


btp, you really are an asset to DIY scene. I really really appreciate your help.

Thanks
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post #87 of 192
11/10/07 at 10:00am
OK, the screw's shaft length is 1.480", which includes the threaded part and the smooth part. The screw head is 0.193" tall and 0.309" in diameter (around the "grippy" part). The seating surface of the screw head is .295" in diameter.

This 10-32 screw would NOT reach through the driver flange (RL-P18, which appears to use the same basket as the IXL) and two pieces of MDF and still be able to thread into the hurricane nut. Below are some pictures to illustrate.

It will thread in this way:


But you can see it doesn't thread completely through the t-nut:


Just to clarify... pictured above are the following items I purchased from Parts Express less than a month ago:

260-776 Cast Frame #10-32 Speaker Mounting Kit
081-1082 #10-32 Hurricane Nuts 50 Pcs.
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post #88 of 192
11/10/07 at 11:05am
Thread Starter 
WOW I am speechless!

Thank you so much for your very illustrative and verbose information.

Looks like I'm headed out to the hardware shop to find some custom bolts.

Thanks btp
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post #89 of 192
11/10/07 at 1:01pm
No problem! Glad I can help. As you can see, it is a "close but no cigar" situation as far as putting the screw through the driver flange and two pieces of 3/4" MDF. A 10-32 screw with a 2 inch long shaft would be plenty. Even a 1 3/4" length would work.
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post #90 of 192
11/10/07 at 2:45pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mynym View Post

Interesting, where did you get the pro version of the hurricane nuts? All I could find on PE were the standard:

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showd...umber=081-1082

Sorry, I think they are termed deluxe. Here is the PE....
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