Triad Owner's Thread - Page 89

Hey, thanks for asking.

Paul,

Do you recommend any of the Triad in-wall subs or a combination of the in-wall subs to pair up with my in-wall gold LCR's?

I would prefer to use in-walls to conceal their identity however I am not totally against a gold dsp sub or two.

I see where Triad now offers the mounting box for the in-room sub amplifier...but was wondering if Triad will ever offer the rack mount amp again for the in-room gold subs??

Thanks
Larry

The only InWall DSP Sub we offer that I'd recommend with Gold LCRs is the InWall Silver/15 DSP Sub, which is 15" deep, and is installed either in a ceiling, a dormer, or from an adjacent utility room. Ceiling seems to work best, but you need access to the crawl or attic. I'd use at least two for Gold LCRs. The other alternative is to do four InWall Bronze/6 (or Bronze/4) DSP Subs, which gives you four 10" drivers and 1,400 watts.

We're probably six months out for a new BASH 1,200 watt RackAmp1200, but I can't promise. I know that the boards are done and being tested, but it'll be a while before we see finished product. In the meantime, I am very happy with my two Gold DSP Subs with the onboard 1,000 watt amps. The BoxAmp is a neat short-term solution, and it fits nicely in a rack on a shelf.

My HT has the Triad Classic Gold Inroom LCRs, with center behind an AT Stewart screen (~20" screen to front wall). I am using Silver Inwall/4 surrounds for side and rear channels. I am driving all speakers with a Marantz SR8500 receiver (rated for 125x7ch). My sub is a Seaton Sound Submersive HP, EQ'ed using the DSP-30 by Mark, himself, when it had the non-HP amp. Even at that time, Mark said I was lacking mid-bass, and the Triads were a limiting factor. After 4 1/2 years, I am starting to agree with him that it is time to do something, especially when listening at volumes in the -10db to -20db range on the volume control. I now have the HP amp upgrade, so the sub has even more headroom. Sometimes, I swear, the dialog is getting a little lost in the more intense action sequences. I am not running the sub hot, but may try upping the center channel another 1db.

I don't really want to give up my Triads, unless I go Seaton Sound, so looking at affordable options without plunking down big money. I was thinking of adding an external amp, such as a used Sunfire 200x5, but am not sure how this would help with midbass.

Can I just replace my center channel with the new 3-way Gold Center or a Gold Monitor (Platinum would be sweet, but out of my budget)? Would this be good "bang-for-buck"? Or would mixing the LCR horns with the newer design be bad for dispersion?

Thanks.

If you have the system calibrated and equalized properly, and you listen at -10 to -20, your midbass should be fine. By "midbass" I assume you mean 80 Hz to 150 Hz, where Classic Gold LCRs do well. You might change your crossover slope (highpass) to a steeper slope, (if you can); maybe even 36 dB/octave. With six 6.5" Seas drivers up front, the 80 Hz+ range should be fine. Your front speakers are 90 dB sensitivity, and they can handle at least 150 watts, and more on peaks.

If you have an AT screen you shouldn't use a horizontal center channel. The whole reason for an AT screen is so you can use a vertical center that's the same height as your left and right.

A separate amp will make a difference, but I don't know if I understand what you're perceiving as a midbass problem. An Emotiva amp will give you more punch and authority, though. Are you using equalization above the sub's output? Is the room treated? Have you tried running the SubMersive up to 100 Hz? If Mark set it up, I wouldn't mess with it, but you might try letting it handle some of the midbass.

Any recommendations for specific Triad speakers for the following new room I'm building?

About 21' x 13' with just under 9' ceiling. Have a 104" wide screen (cinemascope aspect ratio).

I have no real preference of onwall versus inroom, etc. Just want a setup that will fill the room nicely without necessarily being overkill.

Thanks!
Jason

I'll need more information, (electronics, listening habits, seating, etc.), but it looks as if your left and right speakers will be outside your screen. Correct? The best bang for the buck is the Gold LCR, provided you have electronics that will handle 4 ohms or lower. (I'd rather see you use the Emotiva separates than a comparably-priced receiver because of the low impedance capability with Gold LCRs.) You could go InWall or InRoom, or even do an InWall and mount it on the wall for center behind the screen.

Because of the tightness of the room, you probably want dipole surrounds, and the Silver Surrounds will work great in your room. A single Gold DSP Sub will handle the room just fine. I'm using two in a room a bit smaller than that, but I am certifiably crazy.

Correct, L and R will be outside the screen. I don't think an AT screen is in the cards this time. I'm looking at doing a 7.1 setup, mostly for movies (some music). Two rows of seating - roughly at 14 and 18 ft back.

Electronics is still very much up in the air...I haven't bought any AVRs or separates yet -- just have my video sources (BluRay, HTPC, etc.). What specific model(s) would you recommend from Emotiva?

I do actually already have a nice sub from a previous setup that I'm contemplating using if it would pair up well with Triads for all other channels...SVS PB12 Plus/2.

Definitely have been leaning towards Silver Surrounds for the back 4 channels, just wondering whether the fronts would be better served by LCRs or even any other Triad product?

Thanks Paul!

Look at the Emotiva site, but they have a special on a 300-watt x 3 (into 4 ohms) Class AB amp right now. Use that with a receiver to drive your four rear channels, or buy their processor. Receivers are usually weak-sauce in the output stages, but the front ends are just fine.

If you don't go with an AT screen, you can do a Gold Center under your screen, but 2nd row listening won't be very good. Do an AT screen if at all possible. It's a big deal.

Paul,

For normal movie viewing with the above ^^ scenario, what kind of power do the rear 4 silver surrounds require? Would separates really help or would a normal AVR push them.

Surround speakers, either because they're dipoles or smaller with less drivers than typical fronts, usually are around 3 dB less sensitive. Typically, they handle one-third to one-half the power that fronts handle. (These are generalizations...) And surround channels carry less information, and at a lower level. All variables considered, in most systems, surround channels need about half as much power as the fronts. For example, I'm running 375 watts into each of my front speakers, and 125 watts times four into my surrounds. Even though the fronts are around 6 dB more sensitive, I have great balance.

In my opinion, if a manufacturer made a 7-channel home theater amp for decent systems, it would deliver 350 watts x3 for the fronts and 150 watts x4 for the surrounds. YMMV, though.

To answer your question, our front speakers *like* separate amps, but the power in most of today's receivers is more than sufficient for normal applications with Triad surround speakers.

I don't usually endorse specific products, but for those of you with receivers on a budget, and with Triad Silver or Gold LCRs or Silver or Gold Monitors, the Emotiva XPA-3 for $699 would be a great add-on to light up your front speakers.

^^^as usual, thanks for the detailed response...!

Even though I have a center and 2 LCRs, the horns on all speakers are in the same horizontal plane (about 4'-6" above the floor). If this is the case, would another vertical LCR for the center really be any different?

I will ask Mark where he placed the XO and if it should be extended upwards.

Geordon

If the tweeters are at the same height, the horizontal center is fine. The vertically-aligned midrange and tweeter mitigate most of the problems with a horizontal center. Good move putting the tweeters at the same height!

Paul - could you please clarify your past statement for me. I am seriously considering purchasing three InRoom Gold Monitors to be used as my LCR, with MiniMonitors for surrounds. I was planning on having the L&R mounted vertically, while the Centre was going to be horizontal (due to existing cabinetry) and on a different plane (lower) than the L&R. Will this cause me issues with the Centre channel tweeter being on a different plane??

Mike

I've used a Gold Monitor on it's side for center, and while it worked great, it's better vertical behind an AT screen. I'm not saying the system will not work with a horizontal center; it will work fine, but three vertical speakers at the same height is always best. As long as the center Gold Monitor isn't close to the floor with the tweeter a few feet lower than the left and right tweeters, you'll be good. The Gold Monitor tweeter, because of the phase plug, has wider dispersion than most dome tweeters, too. You'll be fine. And I'd sooner use a Gold Monitor on it's side for center than 98% of the center channel speakers out there.

Tks Paul. I'm sold .....

In the past you've said that the Gold LCR is about 75% of the Gold Monitor for music and 90% for movies. I assume that was in reference to using them as L & R speakers (i.e., Gold LCR in vertical vs. Gold Monitor in vertical)

If you absolutely need the center to be horizontal, is the Gold center (which is designed to be used horizontally) even closer in performance to the Gold Monitor (which isn't designed to be used horizontally) for movies and multi-channel music?

It seems that if one can do 3 vertical speakers than the monitors are better than the LCR, but if one is forced to have a horizontal center, just wondering how much better it is to have the monitors rather than the LCR.

That's a pretty good assessment, actually. I prefer the Gold Monitors to the Gold LCRs, even with the center laid on it's side, but not by as wide a margin.

If you're doing a direct-view TV, then you're stuck with a horizontal center. If you're doing projection, unless you have mitigating circumstances, an AT screen and three identical, vertically-aligned front speakers is still the best answer. It's not so much which speaker you place horizontally under a fixed screen. It's the fact that you had to place "A" speaker horizontally under a screen. Even movie theaters place speakers behind the screen, and they've been doing it for decades.

I can vouch for that platinum sub being a beast. Physically it is very imposing.
Paul have you got ground plane measurements like this below for the plat?

http://www.hometheatershack.com/foru...e-results.html

I am suprised that the platinum sub does not get much talk on the subwoofer forum, as it is really well priced and has good output.

Will the plat sub change to a 1200 watt internal and rack amp option this year?

I have requested more detailed specs from our engineering department. I'm sure they have them, but I don't know in what form. As I stated earlier, max SPL on a Platinum DSP SUb is 122 dB, 1 meter ground plane. I cannot vouch for our measuring technique being the same. Because of the larger diameter driver (18" vs. 13"), the Platinum may have more headroom/ output below 40 Hz, but I can't substantiate that just yet. One thing I know is our subs have excellent bandwidth linearity, and they're not just one-note thumpers. Response is flat and extended. Many subs (not the f113) go for max output at one frequency; usually in the 60 Hz range; and they wimp out below 30 Hz. We've always gone for extension at the expense of max output, but the current Gold and Platinum DSP Subs do both. The enclosures are bigger than the last Triad subs, the drivers have more excursion, we need less EQ (more headroom), and the amps are bigger. We're pumpin' more wattage into your cottage.

Because we've had so many amplifier supply issues over the past three years, we have not been as aggressive as we could have been with promoting our subs, mainly our Gold and Platinum DSP Subs. I, too, think they're a ridiculous value. Two 1,000-watt Platinum DSP Subs with 18" drivers retail for about the same as the very sophisticated (and very good) JL Audio f113. For the money, we are clearly a superior value, unless you have little space and only room for one sub, in which case, they have a real winner.

It is safe to say that later this year we'll have both 1,200 watt RackAmps and 1,200 watt PlateAmps for both the Gold and Platinum DSP Subs. I talked about this a few posts north of here. I'll keep everyone updated. When these amps become real, we will be sending subs out for review, kicking names and taking ass.

I guess I would step up and allow Triad to send a Plat maybe even two Plats to demo and test out for them...!

I wouldn't even charge em.

;D

I'll, um, put you on the short list.

I'm perplexed.........too old to wrap my mind around that one....

From the specs noted on the Triad website, the Plat's start rolling off -3 dBs at 20 hz..........how low, and I mean REAL low can the Plat's go.........

What kind of performer are the Plat's in the low teens? Not too many subs without the addition of PR can reach depths that low. Of course available content is lacking too.................

I think Doublewing makes a nice point. The JL f113 is a great sub, but against a seaton submersive it will give up output in the low teens. With some content available in the low teens, how low can a plat go with usable output?
How does it compare to a submersive? At $2,500 it compares very closely in price to a submersive.

I would love to hear more of Addino's thoughts has he has a fathom and a platinum!!!

That is correct. I've had the pleasure of comparing a pair of Fathoms vs a pair Platinums subs. I enjoyed the fathoms a great deal while I owned them but they are not at the level of the plats when it comes to home theater. The plats dig deeper, are louder and at no time did they bottom out. I've been able to bottom out my JL a few times when listening to Cloverfield at reference levels. Other JL owner's shared a similar experience with them. We referred to it as "perculating" as you can hear the driver limiter kick in on certain scenes.

As for the Plats, no matter what I threw at it, the Plats handled it without breaking a sweat. My audio calibrator, Jeff Meier (UMR) did an awesome job this past weekend eq'ing my system (for the second time) because I added a Triad silver sub in the back of the room (I know, I'm sick).

He tested his work with the emerging tripod scene from War of the Worlds. The scene shook my chair and the room to the point where I felt I needed to hang on to my seat. I felt like I was on an roller-coaster ride! BTW-my theater sits is on a cement slab! - Just to give you an idea of the amount of air these subs are moving.

I will say however that I did prefer the JL's over the Plats for music. The JL's a slightly more rhythmic quality compared to the plat subs but I do not listen to music enough to sacrifice the home theater performance I am getting from the DSP Plats. To me, it was a small trade off for awesome home theater performance.

Sorry, with the flurry of activity, and my advanced age, I missed this question. The answer is a decent AV receiver will be sufficient to drive four Silver Surrounds. This would especially be true if you were using a separate outboard amp to drive the three front speakers, which would make it easier on the receiver.

We roll the Platinum off below 20 Hz to enhance headroom, and because nothing is audible below 20 Hz. It becomes a pissing match to extend bass to 8 Hz as one sub company used to claim. However, with room gain, you can often get bass down to the lower teens with our Silver, Gold, or Platinum Subs. One reviewer got flat response to 14 Hz with our older Gold PowerSub, presumably due to room gain.

We use a subsonic filter because you can only get into trouble below 15 Hz. Without the filter, a Platinum DSP Sub would have single-digit response, but, as you correctly point out, there is no program material down there...only stuff that doesn't belong there.

Paul how does a silver monitor compare to gold lcr and gold monitor for music and movies?

I'm elated that you like your Platinums, knowing how good the JL Audio Fathom f113 is. But I bet with some experimenting with the low pass slope, I could get the Platinum subs to sound as good (subjectively) on music, too. I've found that when we run our subs 3 dB hot (which almost everyone does, including me), frequencies just above the low pass frequency (80 Hz-160 Hz) aren't attenuated enough, and they appear as boom, fullness, bloom, or a warm quality, making the sub sound almost tubby. I usually remedy this by setting the sub to a steep slope (36 dB), rather than the usual 12 dB or 24 dB, which isn't enough of a brick wall filter.

Another thing to point out is the f113 was $3,700 in 2009 (I don't have a current price), and the Platinum DSP Sub is currently $2,500.

FTW.