Triad Owner's Thread - Page 104

My initial impressions were based strictly on multi-channel content, (SACD's, DVD-A's and BluRay Hi-Rez codec's.) I have since spent some time listening to 2-channel content. The benefit of the wides is less noticeable, and the 3D hologram is much less effective on 2-channel material than it is on MC content. When you think about it, this makes sense. It takes a lot of processing to extract 9 channels from 2. Also, when you don't have "side surround" info, it's harder to "make" sounds in between the fronts and sides. (Obviously, that's an over-simplification of what's going on, but I think the point is clear.)

Having said that, IMO, Audyssey DSX applied to 2-channel content is still "better" than plain "stereo." I don't doubt that 2-channel purists will disagree, and that's fine. But for me, the sound is more spacious, more immersive and sounds "bigger" with DSX than without. It's a more "front-centric" soundstage than the 3D hologram of MC content, but it's bigger than just the L/R speakers.

That impression may change as I listen more, bit for now, I will continue to use DSX for 2-channel content.

Did I say "I love these Platinums!?!"

Craig

Can't say you didn't give it a second chance!

IMO, visually, your scattered subwoofer distribution isn't that bad at all. It would take a new timer more than a minutes to find the Waldos in your room. Acoustically its excellent, even when you get very close to one of them.

Maybe another sub is in your near future

I'm thinking of Triad Bronze in-walls (LCR and surround), but compared to other floor standing speakers (or even bookshelves), these speakers have no lower end output (below 80hz). I know a subwoofer can help, but it bothers me because the Subwoofer will need constant volume adjustment, because its going all the way up to 80 (or even 100hz). I have the same issue with my car speakers which have similar crossover settings.

Why are the crossovers set so high, even for the in-rooms?

Both Dolby and THX set the suggested crossover point at 80 Hz, because below that point, bass is essentially non-directional. LCRs are designed to be down 3 dB at 80 Hz; it's not a sign of weakness. There's a tradeoff between bass extension and sensitivity, and an LCR opts for more sensitivity. Who cares about extension when every good system has a subwoofer? A subwoofer isn't there to "help," it's there as the low end of a biamplified system. It's task is to reproduce low frequencies. If you look at pro woofers with high sensitivity, you'll see lots of expensive 15" drivers that are down 3 dB at 40 Hz or even higher. Some have a resonant frequency of 70 Hz!

And a subwoofer shouldn't need constant volume adjustments if it's being driven off the sub-out of a receiver or preamp. Volume of the sub and LCRs goes up in tandem. The only situation where this would not be the case (that I can think of) is if you're using the tape monitor out to drive the subwoofer, because it's fixed-level.

Even our InRoom Platinum LCR is down 3 dB at 70 Hz, despite weighing 130 lbs. and being huge. We could have made it flat to 20 Hz, but that would have dropped the sensitivity 4-5 dB, and everyone still would have used their Platinums with subwoofers.

Hi Paul,
As the titled stated, i am debating between a passive LCR soundbar vs in-ceiling LCR speakers and Triad is at the top of the list. My main thread is here w/room layout and such:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1341405

I see that the LCR3.0 is ~1200, i don't know the price of the sealedround, but which will sound better in a 5.1 setup? The rear surrounds will be in-ceiling (if the main L/C/R cost is above budget, I can live with a 'lesser' brand for surrounds) and the sub will be one of the popular ones on the forum, something ~$500. Thanks!

For a variety of reasons, I'd do the OnWall Mini LCR 3.0, which is $1,200 until July 1st, when it becomes $1,300. (I explained this recently in this thread.) The three separate speakers in the OnWall Mini LCR 3.0 are of far better quality than you'll find in almost all soundbars, plus the sound will be coming from the television, which is desirable. I have great confidence in the performance of this speaker, and I think it's one of our best problem-solvers. Remember, you can color match the speaker to the wall or the TV at no additional cost. We can customize the width to match your TV, but that adds another $350. It spreads the left and right speakers out farther, so it's not just a cosmetic improvement, but it's not what I would call a "necessary" option.

Thanks for asking!

Hey, all, I've had a flurry of e-mail, PMs, posts, and questions recently, and I hope I've responded to all of you. Some of you were looking for dealers. I hope I'm caught up. If I missed something, it wasn't intentional, and please ask me again, either here or in a PM. You can also contact me at pscarpelli@triadspeakers.com.

As a reminder, don't forget that some of our prices go up July 1. If you know what you're buying, try to get it on order soon so you avoid the increase. Most of our products did not go up in price, and the ones that were reduced last year are still at the reduced price.

I hate to sound like a salesman. It makes me feel so dirty...

Sure glad I didn't PM you telling my wife was in Park City all of last week...............

Park City is a world away from St. George. It's a five hour drive from my house. I'm a lot closer to Las Vegas.

Hey Paul. I have a quick question for you and for any other 'experts' that want to chime in. For a 7.1 set-up (3 Gold LCRs, 3 Gold subs, 2 Gold surrounds, 2 silver rears), would you recommend using the Dolby Pro Logic IIx config where all seven speakers are utilized even with 5.1 BDs or just use the rears for 7.1 BDs?

For that scenario, I'd use Dolby EX to derive rear channels, but PLIIx works fine. BTW, it's really, really hard to discern the difference between PLII and DD, despite what people might think. The separation isn't as deep as with discrete channels, but beyond around 12 dB, on program material, it's hard to tell. Jim Fosgate is da Man.

There's actually a much bigger difference between Dolby Pro Logic and Dolby Pro Logic II (both analog, derived, active-matrix surround modes) than there is between Dolby Pro Logic II and Dolby Digital. Standard Pro Logic has (had) a single, mono rear channel, rear channel frequency response was comparable to AM radio (nothing past 7 kHz), and the control voltages of the steering logic were so slow (to avoid audio artifacts) that localization was almost non-existent. PLII and PLIIx have lightning-fast attack and release times, and full-range derived stereo side and back channels. It was an honor working for Jim Fosgate for three years back two decades ago.

My AV8003 offers both (EX and PLIIx). Why do you advocate the EX over the PLIIx? I'm fairly new to both.

EX is analog processing tacked onto Dolby Digital. You have five digital, discrete channels, and two derived analog rears. PLIIx is 100% analog, and it consists of processing (not decoding) of two stereo channels into seven channels. You probably won't hear a big difference, but surround effects are more "pinpoint" in DD.

For DVDs, I believe Dolby EX is one rear channel extracted from the matrixed signal put into the two surround channels during mixdown, while DTS-ES on DVDs can be one rear channel matrixed (and extracted in the same manner) or discrete cleverly named 6.1 Matrix or 6.1 Discrete respectively.

Technically correct. Just like old Dolby Pro Logic, where the two surround speakers are one channel, EX is one rear channel. I was not clear.

IIRC, that is exactly the technology right down to the decoder. Back when it debuted, some people hauled out their DPL units and used that as a workaround until they purchased a new receiver/processor. And to your point, that included using - if their kit had it - THX Decorrelation to create two rear channels from that single channel of content.

Jeff

I'm still a bit confused. If the EX is indeed one rear channel, how does it result in the surround effects being more "pinpoint". Someone pointed me to a thread discussion on it but do you have any technical articles on it that are written in layman's terms?

The Dolby site is a good place for that.

You usually use two speakers for the single back channel. Because the same information is going to both, they will image directly between each other. Decorrelation shifted the phase slightly so the surround field was spread out, because the two back channels were carrying slightly different information.

Visited a 1.1 million dollar home today which was part of a local "Tour of Homes" exhibit for local builders. I was especially interested in this specific home due to having a dedicated theater.

Absolutely beautiful home and the dedicated theater sure looked the part but upon further inspection I was horrified as I talked to the CI representative!! Yes, another AV nightmare .............

I was immediately turned off when the guy asked me what speakers I was planning to use and I replied, "Triad Speakers". His response was, "Never heard of them." For crying out loud!! This guy works as a CI and lives no further than 60 miles from the Triad factory!!!!!! From that point on I was in attack mode.........like a pit bull..........but in a "civil" way.

I asked several questions:

Why are there three large holes in the shared wall with the adjacent gym room? His response: so we can have access to the speakers in the theater room.

Why is the center speaker 2 feet above the screen tilted towards the feet of the first row. His response: Can't put the center channel below because that is where the sub woofer is located......hard to mount an eighty pound speaker that high.

Why did you use in-ceiling speakers instead of on-walls? His response: In-ceiling speakers will give the exact same listening results.......besides, makes for a cleaner look.
While I do disagree with part of the statement, with 7 ft of usable space on each side of the two rows of four......and with 13 foot ceilings....I do believe there is compromise with the sound when using 7 inch round multi-purpose speakers.....especially for a state of the art theater room.


Where are the room treatments? His response: No need for them.......the dipole design of the speakers need reflections......don't want to mess with the speaker design.
I find that comment interesting as Definitive Tech speakers stuffed in a hole is blasphemy!

Why are you using a JVC RS40 with a throw of more than 20 ft on a 150" screen? His response: JVC makes an exceptional projector and as you can see........puts out a beautiful picture.
I love JVC projectors, but on the proper sized screen! WAY TOO DIM AND NOT SHARP AT ALL!!

Where are all the sub woofers? His response: We only used one.....and it's behind the cabinet in the center of the room........best location for bass.

I must say, a 23ft long X 22ft wide X 13ft high room is not ideal for a dedicated theater room, but boy did it sure look perrrrrrrrty! All that beautiful walnut...............all for not!

As I left the room, closed the door behind me I could still hear the rumbling of the single subwoofer and Def Tech speakers being played at a modest 70 dbs .............oh, btw........the gym was rocking!

Moral of the story, once again I have no faith in local CI's..........how can a beautiful room be horribly executed for it's one and only duty? Glad I'm planning on using DE's expertise!

I've stopped going to the local Parade of Homes here in St. George for this reason. Most of the "theaters" consist of five round ceiling speakers aiming straight down with a small sub stashed in a corner, and a 50" LCD above a fireplace. Even worse are the fancy theaters with everything done wrong, like the one you cite. I experienced a nice looking theater a few years ago that had a 16:9 screen, showing "Top Gun" in "stretch" mode so there were big bars on the top and the bottom of the picture, and the image was distorted. I asked the installer if he could switch to the proper aspect ratio. He looked at me like I'm a moron, and then told me he didn't know what that term meant. He saw nothing wrong with the picture. The audio was equally horrible, with a large cylindrical sub (brand name not important) turned up around 15 dB too loud as it put out obnoxious, one-note, 70 Hz bass. The other folks in the room were blown away by this awful room.

If you look at systems in the AV magazines, and even trade mags like CE Pro, nearly all dedicated theaters are done wrong, with the wrong projector, speakers placed incorrectly, no acoustical treatment, speakers and subs not appropriate for the room, etc. It drives me bats. But...they all have $20,000 worth of automation!

I have to say that MOST Triad dealers know what they're doing, though. Over the past few years, it's been very rare for me to question what a Triad dealer specs for a system. And if there's something I don't like, it usually has more to do with budget or a spousal issue.

that's almost as nutty as saying "it's really, really hard to discern the difference between PLII and DD"

Have you done a blind test? Because I have, and it's not as clear-cut as you'd think.

I was in a Parade home a couple years ago. The theater was in a big room above a 3 car garage. Nice room and very nicely decorated. The riser was in the back right corner, well over 20 ft. from the screen, (about an 80" fixed frame.) The other seating was offset to the left side and against the wall. I asked the installer why he didn't put any seats in the sweet spot. He replied, "When I finish with a room, every spot is the sweet spot."

He was using the exact speakers I owned at the time, (Atlantic Technology 8200e's.) In that room, they didn't sound anything like my speakers... and I couldn't find the sweet spot, much less sit in it.

Craig

Paul......

I don't doubt that, but I've had issues in my area. I don't have "sucker" stamped on my forehead and have heard plenty from retailers that prove otherwise. Thanks to AVS, I'm semi-prepared for a battle of wits!

BTW, one of the best Triad dealers I've come across is in Seattle.......a four hour drive!

When I get my land/flood plain/city planning issue settled........at least I will be an informed consumer!

My wife and I just finished building our home, which was in the annual home parade in our area. This site was a lifesaver for us. In the end, nobody could wrap their heads around the design philosphy of the dedicated theater room, including my CI guy. He's great with all of the automation and nice looking rooms, but I wanted to go all out with soundproofing and a high-performance AV room without all the fancy trim. In the end we agreed that for that room, I'd walk the framers, drywallers, electricians, and HVAC guys through everything. And I got to choose my speakers, subs, screen, PJ, and electronics. Believe me, this was brave new world territory. In the end, I'm ecstatic with how it all turned out. The CI did a wonderful job tying the theater into the home control system as well. It was a big hit with parade attendees as well, as many people haven't seen a room executed like that, nor have they heard a clean high SPL system.

Paul, I wanted to thank you again for your guidance earlier this year, though you probably don't remember. I ended up with a nice Triad Bronze in-ceiling 5.0 system in our family room (CI put a Velo in-wall sub), and a Micro LCR 3.0 in our bedroom. Once we move in in a couple of weeks I'll post some pics.

Good to see you are happy and soon able to move in............... I know with out a doubt your room would be a smash hit in my area too! I was supposed to start my own construction last November.........hopefully, this November comes to fruition. Battling county/city officials is not fun! Your very own Mid-West is to blame.......changed 100/500 year flood plain maps even here in the Pacific Northwest!!!

Fight On!

I'm glad you had a good experience with your installer. There are quite a few very good ones. We'd love to see pictures.

If you are inclined, (and if I'm allowed to make the suggestion here), friend us on Facebook. Feel free to post great thoughts, comments, kudos, complaints, crock pot recipes, whatever...

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Triad...s/110475381735

Hi Paul,

I'm new to the forum. I'm in the final stages of planning my home theater and would like your advice. Here are the details.

A dedicated totally light controlled room 22 ft long, 12ft 3in wide with a 110 inch screen on one of the 12ft 3in walls.

3 in wall Bronze LCRs
4 in wall Bronze Surrounds
2 In room Bronze DSP subs
Integra DTR 30.0 Reciever
JVC X7 Projector

Do you think the Integra 30.3 reciever is powereful enough to get the best out of the Triad Bronze speakers or should I go with the Integra 50.3 reciever.