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Triad Owner's Thread - Page 134

post #3991 of 5143
3/25/12 at 7:41am
Quote:
Originally Posted by pcarey View Post

Looks fantastic - I'm about 4 weeks behind you and can't wait to test the audio. I'm sure you thought about this but when I did my last movie room I didn't paint over the silver washers on the front wall and I could occassionally see one of them through the AT screen. I'm sure no one else ever noticed but it annoyed me! Just thought I would mention it!!

Did you have the black backing behind the screen as well?
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post #3992 of 5143
3/25/12 at 7:50am
Quote:
Originally Posted by adidino View Post

I had planned on that but the material has a black backing which should hide hide everything behind the screen. No need to paint those. I am going to test it anyway and see if they show once the screen is in.

Boy Tony, you are fast to respond!!

Just for your information.........you don't want to upset DE! You know how "annal retentive" the guy is concerning home theater issues!

I remember Joelc's build and there was a small, insignificant gap between his baffle wall and Triad Gold Monitors.............I remember DE's comment clearly, "Joel you better get gaffors tape and seal those edges or you'll be watching reflections!" Like a good soldier ............Joelc snapped to attention and began taping the edges!

Just letting you know.............
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post #3993 of 5143
3/25/12 at 8:08am
Quote:
Originally Posted by doublewing11 View Post

Boy Tony, you are fast to respond!!

Just for your information.........you don't want to upset DE! You know how "annal retentive" the guy is concerning home theater issues!

I remember Joelc's build and there was a small, insignificant gap between his baffle wall and Triad Gold Monitors.............I remember DE's comment clearly, "Joel you better get gaffors tape and seal those edges or you'll be watching reflections!" Like a good soldier ............Joelc snapped to attention and began taping the edges!

Just letting you know.............

I recall that thread but a baffle wall is a bit different. The speakers need to be flush along the baffle and sealed. False wall is a different design and likely not as effective as a baffle wall but since this will only be in place in this room for a year or two, it's not worth leveraging DE and creating a baffle. When I move the gear into a permanent room, that's another story.

Since everything is open, maybe I should just paint them to be safe. Will only take a few minutes. Why take the risk I suppose.
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post #3994 of 5143
3/25/12 at 8:31am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Scarpelli View Post

Looks great, Tony. I would even make the statement that if anyone does a front projector and uses a fixed screen with a horizontal center channel speaker, they have made a huge mistake.

Wow! I guess I made a "huge mistake" then:





Oh, wait... before I bought these speakers, you said the horizontal CC would be just fine.

Craig
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post #3995 of 5143
3/25/12 at 8:33am
Tony,

What differences are you hearing with the switch from the horizontal CC to a 3rd, vertical LCR?

Craig
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post #3996 of 5143
3/25/12 at 8:45am
Quote:
Originally Posted by adidino View Post

I recall that thread but a baffle wall is a bit different. The speakers need to be flush along the baffle and sealed. False wall is a different design and likely not as effective as a baffle wall but since this will only be in place in this room for a year or two, it's not worth leveraging DE and creating a baffle. When I move the gear into a permanent room, that's another story.

Since everything is open, maybe I should just paint them to be safe. Will only take a few minutes. Why take the risk I suppose.

While you are correct concerning how a baffle wall is different from a facade wall............I believe DE was more concerned by reflections......ie. seeing the miniscule seam as a reflection through the screen. That was my take....

Off to church........
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post #3997 of 5143
3/25/12 at 8:51am
Quote:
Originally Posted by doublewing11 View Post

While you are correct concerning how a baffle wall is different from a facade wall............I believe DE was more concerned by reflections......ie. seeing the miniscule seam as a reflection through the screen. That was my take....

Off to church........

I'm going to paint it anyway. No reason to take the risk I suppose.
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post #3998 of 5143
3/25/12 at 9:02am
Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post

Tony,

What differences are you hearing with the switch from the horizontal CC to a 3rd, vertical LCR?

Craig

Hey Craig. My situation is different than yours as my center was below the screen. Since yours is up high and aligned with the main tweeters, maybe it won't make a difference other than maybe the two 10 inch driver alignment of the center vs the mains but I defer to Paul on that one.

For me, the difference was huge. Dialog was extremely natural and spot on, dead center. Panning across all speakers was far beyond anything I've heard in my room before.
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post #3999 of 5143
3/25/12 at 11:00am
Quote:
Originally Posted by adidino View Post

Hey Craig. My situation is different than yours as my center was below the screen. Since yours is up high and aligned with the main tweeters, maybe it won't make a difference other than maybe the two 10 inch driver alignment of the center vs the mains but I defer to Paul on that one.

For me, the difference was huge. Dialog was extremely natural and spot on, dead center. Panning across all speakers was far beyond anything I've heard in my room before.

Thanks Tony. When I switched to a CC behind an AT screen, I too noted the huge improvement you've discovered. The dialogue "locked" with the on-screen image so much better. Also pans were much more solid and consistent.

I generally sit in the "sweet spot", where the on-axis response of the horizontal CC is very similar to the LCR's:

LCR:


CC:


When I sit off axis of the CC, I do notice some of the off-axis response anomalies you can see above. The imaging suffers, (as it always does off-axis), and there is some comb filtering effect. However, these are small problems, and no one else but me has ever noticed them, or commented on them. In fact, having the CC's tweeter/mids mounted at the exact same height as the LCR's tweeter/mids provides such a good timbre-match and solid soundstage that I have no desire to switch the CC out for a 3rd LCR.

Craig
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post #4000 of 5143
3/25/12 at 6:22pm
Paul, or someone...

Can you shed some light on the Triad marketing specs on the speakers?

The InRoom Silver LCR shows discrepancies between the product web page and the brochure.

The sensitivity on the web page is 89dB (1w/1m) (which I hear is supposed to be anechoic) and on the brochure is 91dB (2.83v/1m). Shouldn't the 1 watt measurement be lower? And shouldn't this be 3dB lower?

Likewise, the InRoom Gold LCR has the sensitivity discrepancy, as well as the power handling being 250w and 300w.

The Platinum has the same sensitivity problem. I didn't check other speakers.

Lastly, is that "maximum power rating" supposed to be RMS watts, "program power" (i.e. typical material with more crest factor), or peak short term power handling?

Thanks in advance!
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post #4001 of 5143
3/26/12 at 6:00am
So many specs that change, so many places they end up. I can see how this happens. I will post the correct specs for you later today.
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post #4002 of 5143
3/26/12 at 6:40am
Sensitivity and impedance specs are stated as averages. A speaker that claims to be 91 dB may be 86 dB at some frequencies and 94 dB at others. Resistance may be 28 ohms at one frequency and 3 ohms at another. (That would probably be called a "4 ohm speaker.") Very few speakers are pure resistive loads, and none have ruler-flat on-axis frequency response...although some claim it.

Power handling is different, and even more vague. I worked on this one before I retired from Triad, and I suggested they instead use "recommended amplifier power." The reason is, a speaker that can handle a 1,000-watt, 2 ms burst at 1 kHz may only be able to handle 40 watts continuous at 30 Hz. Instantaneous power handling is easier because of the short duration and limited heat buildup. And almost all speakers handle more power (gobs more) at midband frequencies of the individual drivers than they do at frequency extremes. Also, the complexity of the waveform is more challenging. Even more frustrating is the fact that by driving a low-powered amplifier into hard clipping, you can blow up almost any tweeter with distortion. If you really try...

If it were up to me, for example, my power recommendation for a Platinum LCR would be "150-500 watts, unclipped, and don't be an abusive imbecile."
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post #4003 of 5143
3/26/12 at 8:16am
If you are abusive with Platinum's ... not a problem. You can either (1) blow the HF drivers or(2) blow your hearing. Number two is the more likely result.
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post #4004 of 5143
3/26/12 at 9:15am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Erskine View Post

If you are abusive with Platinum's ... not a problem. You can either (1) blow the HF drivers or(2) blow your hearing. Number two is the more likely result.



The first drivers to blow in Platinums seem to be the two 10" Scan-Speak drivers, and always because people erroneously set these 150 lb. behemoths to "large." They MUST be set to "small."

Because of the considerable amount of horn gain from the dispersion control lens, the tweeter is padded down the lower it goes in it's operating range, and it's really hard to blow during program material. Tony Grimani has figured out how to blow a Platinum tweeter by making a pink noise mistake in calibration, though... Oopsie. I think the dispersion control lens in the Platinum LCR is of more value by adding another 12 dB or so of headroom below 4 kHz than any other reason.
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post #4005 of 5143
3/26/12 at 12:21pm
Decided to go with In-Wall Gold Monitors behind an AT screen.
(Stewart micro-perf)

Question about vertical positioning of the speakers behind the screen. I can either mount them with the tweeters about ear level (all seats same elevation), or I can raise the speakers higher to center them vertically behind the screen. Which is the best option?

Thanks All!!!


-Digs
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post #4006 of 5143
3/26/12 at 12:24pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by DigsMovies View Post

Decided to go with In-Wall Gold Monitors behind an AT screen.
(Stewart micro-perf)

Question about vertical positioning of the speakers behind the screen. I can either mount them with the tweeters about ear level (all seats same elevation), or I can raise the speakers higher to center them vertically behind the screen. Which is the best option?

Thanks All!!!


-Digs

Tweeters at ear level would be my recommendation.
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post #4007 of 5143
3/26/12 at 12:26pm
Two rows of seats or one?

Much better to be above ear level and aimed into the seating position (or between the first/second row). Becomes more important the closer you are to the speakers.
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post #4008 of 5143
3/26/12 at 12:53pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Erskine View Post

Two rows of seats or one?

Much better to be above ear level and aimed into the seating position (or between the first/second row). Becomes more important the closer you are to the speakers.

One row of seats. A large sectional. Money seat about 12-13 feet from screen. Would you still go above ear level with one row of seats, or stay at ear level?
Appreciate your thoughts!

-Digs
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post #4009 of 5143
3/26/12 at 1:55pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post

Thanks Tony. When I switched to a CC behind an AT screen, I too noted the huge improvement you've discovered. The dialogue "locked" with the on-screen image so much better.

Does it really make that much of a difference?

May I ask the height of your CC before and after?

My CC is currently just below ear level, with the screen above it, and I've never had an issue with sound placement in comparison to the image.
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post #4010 of 5143
3/26/12 at 2:26pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mjf_uk View Post

Does it really make that much of a difference?

May I ask the height of your CC before and after?

My CC is currently just below ear level, with the screen above it, and I've never had an issue with sound placement in comparison to the image.

In a previous system, I had a Klipsch RC-7 CC mounted below the screen. I had a higher screen to accommodate the CC below it. I found myself slouching down in my seat to try to get the sonic image to appear higher. Unlike you, I could always locate the sound from the CC as below the screen. I started with an 18" CC stand and eventually had a custom 22" stand built to get the CC to *just* below the screen. Even at that, I could still locate the CC below the screen, especially on dialogue, where the voices didn't seem to come from the actors mouth's. When I went to an AT screen with 3 identical LCR's behind the screen, the sonic image "lock" with the on-screen image improved dramatically. (This was also in another previous system with Atlantic Technology speakers. You can see a picture of that system here: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...4#post17043554 )

I now have my seating on a riser and the tweeters of all 3 front speakers are at the same height, 44", which is exactly my seated ear height. In my current system, only the CC is behind the screen.

So to answer your question, yes, I personally find a huge advantage to an AT screen with the CC behind the screen and all 3 tweeters at ear height. It makes for a much more solid and cohesive front sound stage.

Craig
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post #4011 of 5143
3/26/12 at 2:30pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by DigsMovies View Post

One row of seats. A large sectional. Money seat about 12-13 feet from screen. Would you still go above ear level with one row of seats, or stay at ear level?
Appreciate your thoughts!

-Digs

I prefer "eye height" to be about 1/3 screen height. Since eye height and ear height are about the same, I try to get the tweeters to 1/3 screen height, (for one row of seats.) It works well for me.

Craig

PS. I would reconsider the Micro-Perf screen. The woven screens offer a better acoustic transparency with less combing and less HF drop off. The Micro-Perf will require some EQ to compensate for the HF roll off. The woven screens do not.
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post #4012 of 5143
3/26/12 at 5:26pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post

I prefer "eye height" to be about 1/3 screen height. Since eye height and ear height are about the same, I try to get the tweeters to 1/3 screen height, (for one row of seats.) It works well for me.

Craig

PS. I would reconsider the Micro-Perf screen. The woven screens offer a better acoustic transparency with less combing and less HF drop off. The Micro-Perf will require some EQ to compensate for the HF roll off. The woven screens do not.

Thanks Craig! It will actually be an easier install to have the speakers at ear height rather than mid-screen. Going higher requires cutting fire-breaks. Like you, I am very sensitive to the vertical location of the dialog. Center speakers above or below the screen consistently bother me. This was my main reason for locating the speakers behind the screen.

I wish I had the room for a weave rather than a perf. My set-up is in my living/media room, so some compromises have to be made.
I'm going with a Firehawk. At least I have a nice long throw for my new (soon to be) Sony 1000
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post #4013 of 5143
3/26/12 at 6:02pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by DigsMovies View Post

I wish I had the room for a weave rather than a perf.

A woven screen requires *less* space between it and the speaker(s). The SeymourAV XD material only requires about one inch of space:

Quote:


You can place the speakers up to approximately one inch from the screen surface, as long as you don't have ports with high velocity airflow. The deeper the bass that the speakers behind the screen are reproducing, the more you space you should give between them and the screen. You can place a subwoofer behind the screen as long as it is spaced at least 6 inches away and no ports are directed at the screen.

http://seymourav.com/screens.asp

With a perforated screen, the speakers need to be 12" behind the screen:

Quote:


The speakers behind the screen need to be a minimum of 12
inches away from the rear surface for the best performance.

http://www.stewartfilmscreen.com/res...esidential.pdf
(Page 16)

If space is a consideration, a woven screen will be a better option.

Craig
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post #4014 of 5143
3/26/12 at 8:57pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post

A woven screen requires *less* space between it and the speaker(s)....
If space is a consideration, a woven screen will be a better option.

Craig

LOL yeah.....

That's why I italicized the word "room"

What I meant by "the room" was a room with a bit of ambient light, light colored walls, etc.... Feel free to b1@tch slap me for my lack of clarity

We really didn't want a dedicated bat cave. (yes- it was an option) It's nice to hang out next to the fireplace, just a short stumble from the kitchen and wine cellar

I would have loved to use a weave. Not only better audio, but placement close to the speakers as well (this would have really helped me). Not to mention visibility of the perf. (O.K. I mentioned it ) A screen like the Firehawk just made sense in my application, and it's the only screen of it's type that is available in a AT version- something I really wanted. With the right throw distance, and right seating distance and angle, most of the issues can be eliminated. It's a good trade-off for me, and one I'm happy to make to get a massive 2.40 screen in my media room. Not a cheap option with perf and auto masking, but what the heck......

If anyone has any other thoughts regarding vertical placement of the speakers at ear height vs. placing them higher toward the middle of the screen- I would love to hear about it! I have an electrician coming by tomorrow to re-route an embarrassing number of electrical power wires.
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post #4015 of 5143
3/27/12 at 12:12pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ack_bk View Post

Tweeters at ear level would be my recommendation.

Thanks. That looks like the plan now, unless somebody wants to talk me out of it!
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post #4016 of 5143
3/27/12 at 2:22pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Scarpelli View Post

Sensitivity and impedance specs are stated as averages. A speaker that claims to be 91 dB may be 86 dB at some frequencies and 94 dB at others. Resistance may be 28 ohms at one frequency and 3 ohms at another. (That would probably be called a "4 ohm speaker.") Very few speakers are pure resistive loads, and none have ruler-flat on-axis frequency response...although some claim it.

Power handling is different, and even more vague. I worked on this one before I retired from Triad, and I suggested they instead use "recommended amplifier power." The reason is, a speaker that can handle a 1,000-watt, 2 ms burst at 1 kHz may only be able to handle 40 watts continuous at 30 Hz. Instantaneous power handling is easier because of the short duration and limited heat buildup. And almost all speakers handle more power (gobs more) at midband frequencies of the individual drivers than they do at frequency extremes. Also, the complexity of the waveform is more challenging. Even more frustrating is the fact that by driving a low-powered amplifier into hard clipping, you can blow up almost any tweeter with distortion. If you really try...

If it were up to me, for example, my power recommendation for a Platinum LCR would be "150-500 watts, unclipped, and don't be an abusive imbecile."

It's nice to know how a speaker has been rated or measured. I think it'd only help to say:
94.5dB/2.83v/1m (91.5dB/1w/1m) anechoic
100Hz-10kHz

And give distortion measurements from pink noise, directivity, etc.

And for power:
250w RMS*
500w Program / Max Recommended Amp (unclipped)
...
*50Hz - 5khz pink noise one hour
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post #4017 of 5143
3/27/12 at 2:24pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Erskine View Post

So many specs that change, so many places they end up. I can see how this happens. I will post the correct specs for you later today.

I called Triad and they helpfully said...

Triad says they're going through a website re-do, and should launch shortly.

The PDFs are more trustworthy than the web page product data. However the power ratings are changed even from what's in the PDFs, due to some updated drivers. Sensitivity is anechoic.

Platinum
94.5dB 2.83v 1m
100-400w recommended amp (can handle > 1000w peaks)

Gold
92db 2.83v 1m
100-400w recommended amp

Silver
91 2.83v 1m
50-200w recommended amp
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post #4018 of 5143
3/27/12 at 4:40pm
Yes. They said they'd get that to me once they had verified all of them against current stuff.
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post #4019 of 5143
3/27/12 at 11:35pm
Does triad offer sales on certain days of the year? Very interested in making a bronze series purchase to enter the world of triad.
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post #4020 of 5143
4/1/12 at 6:38am
What are some of the Platinum owners using for surrounds? monopole, dipole? Which model?
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