Triad Owner's Thread - Page 159

Thanks Paul. I'm happy to help your economy whenever I can!

Jason

Paul,

One last question - In a non-dedicated HT that has hard surfaces all around (hardwood, walls, table tennis, foosball, forehead) would I really be taking a big hit in sound quality if I drop down to the in ceiling bronze sealed rounds? Basically my budget will allow for 2 in wall Bronze/4 surrounds for 5.1 or 4 in ceiling bronze sealed rounds for 7.1.


Thanks,
Jason

Hey Paul - So my room is 14' by 31' x 8' ceiling. (Back of room is wet bar area)

First row seating is 15' from the screen. Would I be better off with the Silver LCRs or the Silver Monitors for the front?

It sounds like you are saying that the Silver Monitors sound better AND play a little bit louder than the Silver LCRs? (But any louder would require Gold LCRs?)

Thinking of doing 3 Silver Monitors for the front and Silver Surrounds for the sides and rear (Rear may be in ceiling due to the back wall being too far back)

Thanks,
Jim

Looking to do whole home audio with sonos connect amps. Would these provide enough power for in ceiling bronze?

This is music only.

Thank you.

Not sure if anyone has replied to you specifically. I have a similar layout, and went with a similar setup. I have the Bronze/8 in-ceiling LCRs, Bronze/4 in-wall surrounds (in the ceiling), a Velodyne in-wall sub. Speakers are driven by the Anthem MRX-300. For a living room set-up and all of the compromises that entails, I'm very happy with the sound. It won't get close to reference, but was not designed to do so, in a room where aesthetics were paramount. We listen from around -35 to -12 and it sounds great. If anything it is mostly lacking at the low-end with the anemic sub. Room correction was important, and I'm happy with what ARC had to offer. Dialogue intelligibility is great. It's weird, but you almost forget that they are in-ceiling speakers as long as you sit on the couch. Once you move out of the sweet spot, or even tilt your head, you realize sound is coming from above though.

My reference for comparison is our dedicated basement theater with JTR 888-HTs up front and S-HTs for surrounds, with 2 Submersives. That system stays clean at ridiculously loud levels, but or course the room layout and speaker placement were optimized. But for a living room where you want everything hidden while maintaining excellent quality sound, Triad is pretty much peerless.

Does anyone know what the price of the Platinum LCR's are?

$7,500 each.

thankyou

Yes, no problem.

BobL - thank you

You probably don't need dipoles in a live room, and four direct-radiating surrounds may give you more even coverage with some directional cues. For the money, I am leaning toward four InCeiling Bronze SealedRounds.

I'm having trouble getting my head around something that is kind of making me hesitate on a possible upgrade with my Triad LCR speakers and was wandering if you guys could help explain it to me?
Please keep in mind that i don't really compute all the tech talk side of things, hence i am asking the following questions.

I currently own and have set up in my home theatre ( L=22' 11" x W=18' 1" x H=8' 7" ) the InRoom Silver Monitors as my LCR channels and am seriously considering upgrading to the Platinum LCR's, but i'm confused about a certain matter and don't want to make a wrong decision that ends up wasting money.

My first question is to do with the setup of the speakers. Remember i don't really understand this so i will try to explain as best i can.
If you set it up so that your speakers are recognised as small (which i would regard my Silver Monitors as) so as the bass goes to the subwoofers ( x2 Platinum DSP's) then if i upgraded to the Platinum LCR's and set them to small ( i would regard them as large) so that the bass goes to the subwoofers, then is there any real benefit to upgrading to the Plats? I suppose what i am saying is that why go the larger speakers if the subs are going to do all the work anyway for the lows and i read somewhere that the Silver Monitor tweeters are essentially the same as the Plats except for the dispersion lens, midrange not sure about, so where is the advantage of the Plats?

Would i be hearing any upgrade in sound quality?

If i got the Plats and set them to large then is it not passing the bass to the 2 Platinum DSP subwoofers and then under utilising the subs?

Have i got this all wrong?

Is the upgrade to the Plats going to be a noticeable difference from the Silver Monitors in my size room?

I'm gathering how loud you listen to your system may play a part in this upgrade, yes or no?

cheers

Ian

Commendably, you're actually asking a very astute question. The answer is fairly complex.

When you design an LCR for maximum sensitivity, you give up bass extension. A high-sensitivity, 98 dB pro 15" woofer usually starts rolling off at 80 Hz or so, whereas a 15" consumer driver that's flat to 30 Hz can be as low as 86 dB, making it useless for high-output applications. I don't know of a full-range speaker that plays flat to 20 Hz without EQ that has sensitivity above 90 dB. Also, LCRs are rarely placed in a room position to produce optimum bass. Platinums have tremendous capability down to around 60 Hz, and any serious system has a subwoofer, anyway. Or two. Or four. The Platinum LCR was designed for use with a subwoofer, and to be used as "small," which doesn't refer to size, but rather to crossover choice. It's not a sign of weakness, but, rather, high sensitivity with tons and tons of headroom. I recommend an 80 Hz crossover frequency, as I would with almost any LCR. (I often recommend 100 Hz or 120 Hz with Silver Monitors due to power handling limitations below 150 Hz.)

That said, Platinum LCRs with Platinum DSP Subs sound better than Silver Monitors at low levels, much better at moderate levels, and shockingly better at high levels. Actually, Silver Monitors won't play to high levels, as great as they sound at low levels. I have had Silver Monitors, Gold Monitors, Gold LCRs, and Platinum LCRs in my room (11.5' x 8' x 19') and because of the somewhat limited dynamics, I have to rank Silver Monitors last...as great as they are. Even at moderate levels, Platinum LCRs sound more effortless even than the very robust Gold LCRs. They have the ability to comfortably handle anything you throw at them, and they never sound strained in the slightest. I believe the Platinum LCRs sound so good in the real world in part to their high sensitivity and power handling. There is an immediacy to the sound, and they don't sound like speakers. You hear the program material, only. They are many levels above the Silver Monitor despite sharing two 5.25" drivers. I recommend Silver Monitors for home theater applications in smaller venues, where the volume won't quite be at reference, and with subwoofers and using a 100 Hz crossover.)

I read an online review years ago where someone compared big, expensive speakers, and he slammed the Platinums because they "need" a subwoofer. Yes, they do, and by design. Who on Earth would do a home theater with $22,500 worth of LCRs and NOT use a subwoofer?? The reviewer didn't get it. I could have gutted him like a trout, but he would have looked so bad, I chose to take the high road and ignore the thread.

Additional reasons for not running Platinums "large" with a subwoofer include limiting the power handling of the Platinums by trying to pump 20 Hz at 400 watts through the two Scan-Speak 10" drivers. They weren't designed for that. Another reason is running subs that are flat to 20 Hz in tandem with LCRs that are flat to 60 Hz will reduce the amount of total bass below 60 Hz.

To answer your basic question which is "are Platinums better at normal levels," the answer is a definitive "yes." And as you edge the volume up a bit, the difference becomes quite dramatic.

Wow, just checked out the Platinum LCRs.
Nice and 94db sensitivity?
Crap that's like an old KlipschHorn.

I bet they are dynamic.
Says the power handling is 500 watts? Really?
Seriously if you really cranked'em with an amp that powerful you'd be deaf
but at least you wouldn't hear your foundation crumbling.

Just to jump into this discussion regarding the Plats, Paul is 100% correct (but of course he is)

Anyway, I've owned the plats for about 3 years now and they are by far, my favorite speaker for home theater. Nothing else I've owned has come close. Especially at or near reference level. An incredibly powerful and dynamic speaker. As Paul stated, effortless. For home theater, high sensitivity, massive dynamics, clarity and slam are they key ingredients. You get all of that and more from the Platinums.

Unfortunately, since my daughter was born, I have not been able to play them in my theater too loudly since her bedroom is directly above the theater. For a moment, I had considered selling them off and moving to the Gold Monitors. However, the more I thought about it and while spending time listened to them at lower levels, there's just something special about the Plats. I told myself I would be stupid to give these up. In the end, I just couldn't do it.

So to answer your question, you need to look at the Platinum as the largest bookshelf speaker in the world. That's the best way I can describe it. They produce a massive amount of output and gut wrenching slam but will not go much lower than 60- 80hz and that's by design (as Paul stated). Pair these with some nice subs and they will blow your socks off (literally).

If you have the means, you will enjoy this speaker for a long time.

Hi Ian,

Paul gave you a great answer. To reinforce what Paul said, I have Platinums for my mains and Silver Monitors for the Side and Wide surrounds. The Silver Monitors are great "small" speakers with excellent sound quality at lower levels. In my system they work great as surrounds, with an excellent timbre match to the Plat's. But they need to be used within the wheelhouse of their output and extension. I have mine crossed at 100 Hz. 100 Hz is probably the lowest crossover that should be used with the Silver Monitors, and they could likely benefit from even higher crossovers. However, you start to run into subwoofer localization issues with higher crossovers. IMO, the optimal solution would be to add mid-woofers in between the 5.25" mids and the subwoofers.

Enter the Platinums...

The Platinum LCR's are in a whole different league in terms of output. Take your Silver Monitors and keep all the sound quality, but up the output by a factor of 10 and you have the Platinums. The Platinums use the same mid and tweet drivers as the Silver Monitors. However, the Plat's add dual 10" mid-woofers that allow the mid's to be crossed over higher and get them into their more useful range. The 5.25" midwoofers work much better when crossed over higher, and their use with the Platinum's 10" woofers allows this to happen. Triad doesn't publish the crossover frequencies between the 10" woofers and the 5.25" mids, but I would guess it's in the 500 to 800 Hz range. This allows the Scan-Speak midrange drivers to work well within their own optimal wheelhouse.

As Paul explained, the Plat woofers are also allowed to work within their own wheelhouse by setting them to Small and using crossovers on them. I use 100 Hz crossovers with my Platinums. The key to allowing this is to get a subwoofer system that is the equal of the Plat's in terms of output. I have 4 subs. If you upgrade to Plat's, you may find that your subs are the "weakest link" in your system. (Don't get me wrong... I'm sure your dual Platinum subs are awesome, and they would be more than enough with any other, more "mortal" speaker systems. However, to keep up with the capabilities of the Plat LCR's, you might need more subwoofage.

Bottom line, an upgrade form Silver Monitors to Platinum LCR's would be an unfathomably huge upgrade. You would lose NOTHING in terms of sound quality and you would gain massive amounts of output capability. Even if you don't use all the output capability of the Plat's, the improvement in sound quality at just moderate levels will be easily noticeable. The Plat;s will just be loafing along at levels that would be taxing to most other speakers.

If your budget allows this upgrade, I can enthusiastically endorse it.

Craig

The last two characterizations of the Platinum LCR are spot on. I have Gold Monitors in my smallish theater now, after having Platinums, and I miss the endless dynamics and ease. One correction, though; the Platinums use a different tweeter than the popular Seas that Triad uses in the Gold MiniMonitor, Silver MiniMonitor, and Silver Monitor. Similar, better, but not the same.

Thanks heaps Paul, Tony & Craig for your detailed explanations - much appreciated.

So now can you guys give me a run down of the crossovers, output, headroom and frequency response of the female mind so that i can now convince the wife that we MUST UPGRADE to the Plats!

Cheers

Ian

Also guys what Pre/Pro and Power Amps or AVR are you using with the Platinums?

I ask this for if i upgrade to the Plats maybe i might need to upgrade my Pre/Pro and or power Amps to make sure that i am getting the best out of them.

cheers

Ian

Female crossovers??? Not touchin' that one!

Female headroom??? Once you get married there ain't none.

Output and frequency response??? See above.

Get yer Plat's 'cause ya ain't gittin nuthin else!

j/k of course. Good luck convincing the wife.

Craig

Hi Paul - so my room is 14' Wide, 31' Long, with an 8' ceiling. First row will be about 13-14' from the screen.

I have 3 Silver Monitors, a Silver Sub, and 2 Silver surrounds on their way. Are these a good fit for this room size? (Hope so as they are already on their way )

And if so - If I set the Monitors to 100 - will the Silver be able to cover the "Gap" or should I be looking for a different Sub(s)?

Thanks,
Jim

Not Paul, but I own Silver Monitors. In a room that size, at your seating distance, I would not expect to be able to hit full Reference Level with that system. That said, RL is VERY loud and most people don't need full RL. If you are satisfied with -12 to -10, you should be just fine. Your next upgrade should be a 2nd sub. Place it appropriately and you can cross over even higher than 100 Hz, which will give the Silver Monitors a little more headroom.

Craig

Thanks Craig - So what Subs are you using with your Monitors?

Are you happy with this setup or are you planning to upgrade? If so - what route are you planning to go?

Jim

Craig's response is on target, as expected. My guess is you'll be about 3 dB below reference at the money seat, which is still pretty loud. That's assuming you're using an amp that delivers at least 200 watts into 4 ohms. Using a typical 125 watt per channel receiver with Silver Monitors would be a sin. I concur with adding an additional sub, for 3-5 dB more bass, and smoothed-out room modes. And, looking at your room dimensions, if you happen to sit 15.5' back from the front wall, you will have a paucity of bassage. There is no bass in the dead center of a room. 13' back from the wall should be good. If your speakers are out 2' from the wall and you're 13.5' back from there...no bass. And no way to get any bass. I would make sure the first row is around 13' from the screen WALL.

That's a very accurate speaker system that will still play moderately loud. It's a superb system.

Hey Triad users (and hopefully Paul),

I am setting up a new room soon and am trying to sort out my speaker situation. The room is 16*19 feet with the screen on the shorter wall and one wide row of seating about 13-14 feet back. I am considering a big screen, between 150-160'' diagonal 16:9 to have that floor to ceiling IMAX effect. I originally was going to use my existing Linn 5140/5120 LCR's which are quite nice sounding speakers IMO, but with this large of a screen and only a 95 inch ceiling to work with, proper placement of my center channel will be impossible. Therefore, I'm considering going the AT screen route and going with the Triad Inwall gold/6 LCR's. I assume these would have enough power for a room this size? Any idea how the inwall golds would compare to my Linn's?

The issue that I am really struggling with though is what four surrounds to go with. I have the Sherwood R-972 and would like to utilize the Trinnov correction which complicates things a bit. I would assume I would want to use direct radiating speakers for both the side and rear surrounds. One issue I have is that there is a large window on the back wall which will prevent onwall or inwall speaker for the back surrounds limiting me most likely to ceiling speakers. The Trinnov mic can be picky so I want to make sure that all surrounds could be aimed at the primary listening position. So my thoughts so far have been to:

-Use 4 InCeiling mini 8 LCR's, with two on the far sides aimed in and two in the back aimed forward OR:
-Use 4 InCeiling Bronze 8 satellites, OR:
-Use 2 of either of the above and Use the sealed rounds for the back surrounds.

How flexible is the tweeter tilt in the rounds? Would I have issues aiming it correctly if they were 4-5 feet back from listening position? Cost of course is a consideration and I would rather put most of the money into my LCR's. Subs are taken care of and power is not an issue as I have an ADA amp with 6 channels of 400 watts/4 ohm speakers.

Thanks in advance for any help. This seems to be one of the more friendly and helpful boards in the speaker section so I'm looking forward to any thoughts/advice.
Can someone PM me the MSRP list so I know what ball park I'm dealing with?

Matt

Thanks Paul.

What would you all recommend for the second sub? (and 3rd and 4th )

One more Silver sub would set you up great. I usually don't like mixing different brands/models of subs. Long story...

Those Linn speakers are really great for 2-channel at a moderate level, but Gold LCRs; at double the power handling and at least 2 dB more sensitivity; will be more dynamic, they'll never sound strained, and they'll stay smooth and uncompressed beyond ridiculous playback levels. Your own suggestion of using four InCeiling Mini/8 LCRs is a good one. Forget about Triad's or anyone else's round ceiling speakers. The rest of your stuff is too good. Your ADA amplifier is a beast. We love ADA at Triad, and one of the best demos ever was at the CEDIA New Technology demo a few years ago where they used Gold LCRs with big ADA electronics. It was jaw-dropping.

Please talk to a video expert before you do a screen that big if you're going to sit closer than 20', which you probably are. The left and right will be out of your direct vision, and you'll give up brightness, detail, contrast, and black level. You probably want a better, smaller picture. Ten feet back from a 13' screen is way too close. To test what I'm saying, go to a theater and sit in the front row. Then move to the center of the theater. If you still prefer the overwhelming and blurrier big picture, then ignore my advice. There is no right or wrong; there is only what you prefer.

Oh, and e-mail me at pscarpelli@triadspeakers.com and I'll e-mail a >PDF of the current catalog.

Thanks.

Which ADA amp is pushing 400 watts x6?