Triad Owner's Thread - Page 162

There's always the possibility you can overpower the speaker if you push it too hard.

According to the Triad specs, the Siliver In-Walls LCR are rated for 4 ohms. And according to the Emotiva specs, the XPA-5 can deliver 300W at 4 ohms (200W at 8 ohms).

So you will need to be careful with how loud you turn up the volume. Not sure what preprocessor you have but maybe you can configure it with a limiter.
Edited by curtisG - 3/6/13 at 1:01pm

Your question is the most commonly asked question I've fielded since my early days in this business in the 1970s. The answer isn't simple, there are no guarantees, and you have to use common sense. I've dealt with customers' blown speakers for many years, and it happens with low-powered receivers as well as with big power amps. Speakers are blown when the owner is doing an animated demonstration (showing off), in a party situation, or maybe just while "seeing what this baby will do." You can't get greedy with playback level, and you have to pay attention to the warning signs, which are very subtle. If peaks sound even slightly compressed, turn it down a bit. If the speakers start to sound a bit harsh and sloppy, turn it down. Distortion has to reach around 10% to be really noticeable, and that's too late many times. And it only takes one mistake to damage drivers. Also, extended listening at fairly high levels can damage drivers because the voicecoils can't dissipate heat fast enough.

Amplifier clipping produces a jagged waveform which produces heat in the voicecoils and crossovers. Heat is what blows speakers. The delicate voicecoil wires act like fuses, and they burn. Overpowering a speaker will also generate heat and blow drivers. One of the biggest causes of blown speakers is dealers and/or consumers "under-spec'ing" amps and speakers. You may be on a budget, but you want your system to play louder than it can play...which is physically impossible. Upgrade front speakers, subwoofers, and amplifiers when you can, and you are unlikely to encounter catastrophic failures, which always happen when you have a roomful of guests. It's embarrassing, as you don the "Shroud of Shame."

As a car enthusiast, I've seen people make the same mistakes with turbo or supercharged engines. There's a level at which you are not damaging the engine, but most aftermarket enthusiasts go beyond that level and grenade their motors. They run a few degrees too much ignition timing advance to get a few more horsepower, or they turn the boost up from a safe level to a dangerous level to get 20-30 more horsepower. Both of these moves tend to cause detonation or pre-ignition, which is instant death to a boosted engine, unless you run 100 octane race fuel on the street. (I used to.) It's the same with speakers. "It sounded so good at a high volume that I just thought I'd turn it up a bit louder!"

I've also seen industry giants (no names mentioned here) who have destroyed speakers while testing or calibrating a system, either with pink noise at reference level (ouch) or a frequency sweep at high level. If you want to blow a tweeter, do a HF frequency sweep at high volume. Guh-hed.

If a speaker blows, 99% of the time it's user error. Even recently, a very nice customer told me they thought they had a weak tweeter and that's why it blew. Of course, it was a center channel tweeter; the one that takes the most abuse in a system. Once in a great while an amplifier passes DC and blows a speaker, but that won't happen in a system with LCRs where the front speakers (and surrounds) are high-passed. DC (0 Hz) will not make it to an LCR used with a crossover. The bottom line is, if a speaker blows, it's almost always because someone pushed the envelope a bit too far.

While in retail, I had a wealthy customer bring in a pair of speakers. I could smell the burnt carbon (resistors) before he put them on the counter. He was a bit miffed that these expensive satellites had stopped working, and under "reasonable" circumstances. I asked the fellow what he was doing when they blew, and he told me he had them outside while he was doing yardwork. I asked him what kind of yardwork, and he replied "I was 100' from the house, cutting small trees with a chainsaw."

Of course, I have NEVER blown a speaker. Or a car engine.

I am the "very nice customer" and am in the process of upgrading my speakers. I also have the Silver LCRs and my Amps (originally and Outlaw 770 and now a Savoy G3) are rated at 300 WPC and 400WPC into 4 Ohms, respectively.

Admittedly, I like to play things loud - louder than the Silvers will maintain in my room. After popping the center LCR's tweeter and getting it replaced (Triad is awesome about that kind of stuff), I raised the crossover on all my speakers and lowered the center 2db but I still notice the speakers getting harsh and hard to listen to in scenes where they are really getting hit hard.

I am going to move up to Gold LCRs, based on Paul's recommendation...should handle the extra power and will give me a bit more volume. I also won't feel like I am abusing the crap out of them when I watch a movie.

Shan

You may have been the "very nice customer" in this case, but I get a few examples like this a week. And yes, you have been very nice. You won't regret moving up to Gold LCRs. I still consider them the greatest value in the Triad line, despite costing $2,150-$2,250 each.

Ya, I am looking forward to hearing the difference. And for public record, I still think Triad should put you back on the payroll.

Shan

Regarding my amp question with the silvers, I'm not one to drive my speakers crazy loud. At the time I put my system in a couple months from now, my first will be 3 and my second will be a month old. It'll be a while before my system sees much volume anyway.

I'm just looking for a well matched set up that can play reasonably loud eventually but has headroom, clarity, detail, and doesn't overdrive an amp or speaker to get it.

I'm concerned that an Emotiva UPA-700 at 100 watt into 4 ohm will be too little capability with the silvers. Could use multiple UPA-200 amps I guess at 200 watt at 4 ohms. Maybe I should consider another amp brand, but I'm drawn to the Emo product line for some of the same reasons I decided to use Triad.

If you don't turn it up to abusive levels, you will have no problem. You could have a 1,000 watt per channel amplifier, but if you're only using a max of 50 watts, the speaker won't know the difference. I like Emotiva, and don't be concerned with the amp having too much power. The volume control determines how much you use.

I will be installing my "new" 7.1 speakers next week. The LCR are Silver in wall. The surrounds are Bronze In Wall surrounds which will be ceiling mounted. The rear channels are in ceiling Gold Omnis. How far apart should the rear cahnnels be placed? The room is appros 16x18. The smaller dimensions are the Front and Back walls.

I'm sure people much more expert will speak up but I think you need to know where your seating is located to correctly locate the rears. The sides are supposed to be 90-110 degrees (though I'm sure there are other options and it depends on height and ...) and the rears at something like 135-150 degrees. Those are angles between the line from listener to fronts and the line from listener to sides or rears. Since it depends on where the listener is, you need to specify that in order to choose speaker locations.

See, for example, the diagram on this http://www.audioholics.com/tweaks/speaker-setup-guidelines/home-theater-speaker-layout-an-essential-guide.


Since I am going through a similar set of choices (current plan: silver LCRs up front, silver surrounds and in-ceiling silver omni SE as rears), may I ask why you chose bronze surrounds and gold omni's as rears to go with the silver LCRs up front?

Good luck!

Adam

Your answer on rear surround spacing was excellent, and I have nothing to add.

Bronze, Silver, and Gold can and should be mixed, when appropriate. A Gold Omni is actually now called a Silver Sat, and it works great as a direct-radiating rear channel speaker. I have them in my theater with Gold Monitors up front, and Silver Surrounds. The room size/shape and the listening position determines the surrounds more than anything else.

Whats the going rate currently on Triad Bronze LCR's? And would these be sufficient for non audiophile ears in a semi- small living room setup for front center and right, 8 ft from sitting area to TV and only about 12 feet wide wall space for equipment. The room is open on two sides to kitchen and rest of first floor. I see a number of folks opt to go a little better for their LCR speakers and go with silver over bronze. Is it really worth considering silver over bronze and whats the price difference? Use is probably 50/50 movies and music in our house. Will need to pair whatever we use with in ceiling surrounds either 5.1 or 6.1, with those being as a necessity mounted in line or very nearly so with the seating area.

U.S. pricing is $500 each for an InRoom Bronze LCR, $600 each for InWall Bronze/4 LCRs, and $700 for an InCeiling Bronze/8 LCR. Prices include custom paint or custom paint matching of InWall and InCeiling grilles or InRoom cabinets. From 8' out, they'll play to healthy levels (along with a sub, of course.) An InRoom Silver LCR is $800, and the two InWall versions are each $900. The speakers aren't much different in sound, but the Silver has around 4 dB more output, which is considerable, and they have a bit more punch. They're also larger. A pair of Bronze Surrounds over the seating area will do a nice job. Although Silver LCRs and Surrounds are a step up, a Bronze system will work very well in your room. A single InCeiling SIlver/8 Sat behind you will handle the rear, or do a pair. Bronze Surrounds are $500 each, Silver Surrounds are $700 each, and the InCeiling Silver/6 Sat is $500. Very reasonable for quality American-made speakers.

Thanks for the quick response. Next question, probably for those that actually have been or are triad dealers, is there any way to tell the age of a particular set of speakers by the MPN? I'm hesitant to shop for used speakers somewhere like Ebay but am considering it.

Some used Triad speakers are twenty years old, and there have been as many as seven versions of some models (Silver LCR, for example.) Some of the drivers are no longer available, having been discontinued by the vendor. Serial numbers won't help much, but if you can post a picture, I can (maybe) help. Some models have essentially been the same for a decade, with maybe a single crossover tweak, like the Platinum LCR and Gold Monitor. Also, used Triad speakers have no warranty. The new warranty is 10 years. Buy used Triad at a good price or pass on it, like any other speaker.

Thanks Paul, sorta what I figured. I know the rears/surrounds will more than likely be new because I'll contract to have them installed when the home is being built. I was hoping to snag a deal on the fronts if I could tho, specially with the bill of the whole house being a factor But if I'm looking at 20 year old speakers with a significantly different sound and outdated hardware I'll scrap the idea.

A front view if it helps any:

Those look fairly recent. Those may be the Peerless woofers. If so, that was a decent series of Bronze LCRs.

Thanks again for the help, now to decide whether to roll the dice on used speakers. I'll probably be back asking more closer to the speaker install.

Not sure but i think my InRoom Platinum DSP 1000 watt rack amp may be faulty.
It was working fine yesterday while watching a movie then today i turned my system on and no sub output.
Checked all connections - all good.
Checkes settings on rack amp - all good.
decided to go into pre amp setup and check speaker config and settings- all good, so i done a tone test.
all speakers were fine except the sub - just a very very faint rumble then nothing.
checked everything again - all good until the tone test - again just a very very faint rumble and again after just a few seconds nothing - total silence.

Any ideas guys?

I also own a InRoom platinum powersub with a 1000 watt rack amp.
I hooked this powersub up to my system with no change of settings and it worked fine - movies and test tone - no probs.
my question is can i swap out the rack amps from both subs (powersub rack amp to run the dsp sub and the dsp rack amp to run the powersub) to see if it is actually the sub or the rack amp?
Edited by Ian13 - 3/11/13 at 4:58am

Did i see somewhere recently mentioned on this thread that the 1000 watt rack amp was prone to chronic shorting or something to that description?
What is the possible cause of this chronic shorting?
How can i tell if mine has shorted out?
Edited by Ian13 - 3/11/13 at 4:48am

Try the PowerSub amp to see if the sub plays. I would call Brent at Triad and ask about the possibly defective RackAmp 1000. I can think of a few possibilities, but I don't want to speculate. You may have to send it in. BTW, I know of no "shorting" problems with this amp.

I once had a client who asked me to send his "Ebayed" On-Wall Bronze surrounds to Triad for repair. Because he was a good client I did it for him. Triad replaced the drivers and they sounded great, but the cabinets were a mess and they certainly didn't look "new." We also had to order new grills to replace the old ones. I have no idea why my client didn't just ask for a refund after he received them from the Ebay seller.

When it comes to online auctions, I guess it's buyer beware.

Good story. Quite often, used speakers are a bad value, regardless of brand.

I tried as you have suggested and the sub plays fine with the other rack amp.
so its definitely the rack amp that is faulty.
Any guess what it might be?

Sorry Paul, maybe i have missed something in the above two quotes but it reads like they are saying the opposite.

Oh, the unintentional hilarity. By "shortages" I meant supply shortages...not being able to get enough. As far as electrical shortages...none.

Sorry for the vague use of the word "shortages," but I'm glad we figured it out.

And technically, when there is an electrical short, it isn't a "shortage." It's a short. And today I am wearing "shorts," not "shortages."
Edited by Paul Scarpelli - 3/11/13 at 3:18pm

Ah now i get it, thanks for the clarification.
Amazing how one word can have multiple meanings depending on who is reading it and for what purpose they are reading it for.

cheers Paul.

TMI...

... but I do like the new avatar.

Craig

An unusually candid expression of man love ...