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Have firmware updates helped or hurt the consumer?

post #1 of 36
10/14/07 at 5:03pm
Thread Starter 
Is there any reason why we need firmware updates for our equipment to work properly? For years disc players and receivers have been manufactured without this and work perfectly right out of the box. Its really hard to grasp that a 500.00 blu-ray player is full of bugs and a 25.00 dvd player works perfectly. Hdmi handshake issues are one thing, an expensive poorly built player is something else.
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post #2 of 36
10/14/07 at 5:26pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by kemiza View Post

Is there any reason why we need firmware updates for our equipment to work properly? For years disc players and receivers have been manufactured without this and work perfectly right out of the box. Its really hard to grasp that a 500.00 blu-ray player is full of bugs and a 25.00 dvd player works perfectly. Hdmi handshake issues are one thing, an expensive poorly built player is something else.

No, actually there is no comparison. The very early years of DVD were riddled with severe bugs compared to what we're having today -- whether it's Blu-ray or HD DVD.

In 1997 and 1998, most of the 1st gen DVD players were manufactured with a incomplete DVD Spec, and when more interactive discs started coming out, they were often unplayable on those machines.

Worse yet, for a number of years, most of the DVD players were never meant to be upgradeable by disc, which meant that you were forced to drop your player at a support center and wait a few weeks.

When The Matrix first come out, at least 15 leading DVD players weren't able to play it properly -- or at all. It was a big story back then, considering that the Internet wasn't as widespread as it is now.

What we're seeing now doesn't begin to compare with the suffering that the early adopters of DVD had to endure.
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post #3 of 36
10/14/07 at 6:17pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Azumi View Post

No, actually there is no comparison. The very early years of DVD were riddled with severe bugs compared to what we're having today -- whether it's Blu-ray or HD DVD.

In 1997 and 1998, most of the 1st gen DVD players were manufactured with a incomplete DVD Spec, and when more interactive discs started coming out, they were often unplayable on those machines.

Worse yet, for a number of years, most of the DVD players were never meant to be upgradeable by disc, which meant that you were forced to drop your player at a support center and wait a few weeks.

When The Matrix first come out, at least 15 leading DVD players weren't able to play it properly -- or at all. It was a big story back then, considering that the Internet wasn't as widespread as it is now.

What we're seeing now doesn't begin to compare with the suffering that the early adopters of DVD had to endure.

I also remember dvd being buggy. When dvd came out there was nothing to compare it too. It was clearly better than vhs tapes. Blu-ray & Hddvd are competing against each other and dvd. Alot of consumers are pretty content with upconversion players on their hdtv. Once again they(Blu-ray & Hddvd) are competing against inexpensive hardware & software.
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post #4 of 36
10/14/07 at 7:12pm
I would have to say the majority of the time helped...
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post #5 of 36
10/14/07 at 7:18pm
Thread Starter 
Couldn't they make a player that performs correctly without it?
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post #6 of 36
10/14/07 at 8:33pm
IMO, for the most part they have helped.
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post #7 of 36
10/14/07 at 9:34pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by kemiza View Post

Couldn't they make a player that performs correctly without it?

No. At one time our home theater systems were not mini computers but now they are. And updating FW is part of computers. Has been from the early days even if it is better now and less frequent. Now you just have regular driver updates. But we are stuck with them I feel until a computer can be built that does not need any updates, and I for one donot see that ever happening.
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post #8 of 36
10/14/07 at 9:51pm
We're all beta testers nowadays!
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post #9 of 36
10/14/07 at 10:33pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by WaldorfSalad View Post

We're all beta testers nowadays!

Especially if you are a early adopter... With the ever changing software we have firmwares become a must in most cases..
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post #10 of 36
10/14/07 at 10:41pm
Of course firmware has helped.

Despite the inconvenience for some, could you imagine where we'd be without the updates??
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post #11 of 36
10/14/07 at 11:09pm
If it wasn't so "easy" to have end-users update the firmware to fix issues on-the-fly out in the field the manufacturers would need to take more time getting the product right before shipping it! For example, Samsung who have released the 1000, 1200 and 1400 in the space of about a year or so yet each new release seems to contain the same issues and shortcomings that never seem to get fixed. Same with the 1st, 2nd & 3rd gen. Toshiba HD-DVD players, particularly the ongoing lack of pause-resume, etc. And so on with TVs, DVD players & recorders, DVRs, etc, etc.
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post #12 of 36
10/14/07 at 11:36pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by RWetmore View Post

IMO, for the most part they have helped.

+1
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post #13 of 36
10/15/07 at 5:22am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Azumi View Post

What we're seeing now doesn't begin to compare with the suffering that the early adopters of DVD had to endure.

I have to disagree. I was an early adopter (March 1997) and had no problems at all playing hundreds and hundreds of DVD's on my Sony 7000. The only huge bug-a-boo was lack of support for DTS (reason I eventually replaced it). The machine still works perfectly today - and has never glitched or had a single firmware upgrade.
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post #14 of 36
10/15/07 at 5:38am
firmware updates are one thing that will make more consumers bald in the future. I remember going to do an install for someone who had a Samsung BDP1000. I asked the wife how much she liked it. She said the picture was amazing. Offhandedly she remarked that one or two blu-ray's would not work that they had bought. I was able to pick one of them out. Sure enough it was the Descent. They had tried 3 different copies and finally the people at best buy gave them a full refund. I popped in my firmware disc that I had in my computer case. All of the sudden a blu-ray that never worked before worked. She was absolutely amazed. I explained to her how to get update discs sent to her. They would have given up on Blu-Ray all together once the new BD+ stuff really starts coming out. Because they would not have known how to fix the problem. That actually is the worst part of all of this. Certain players needing a firmware update to play BD+ could be a serious serious killer to Blu-Ray. The same could be said of certain HD-DVD's as well. I think King-Kong was one that needed new firmware to play. I wonder how many people that own a G1 could never get that one to work. Firmware is absolutely awful. Sorry, I happen to be a dedicated A/V guy so for me, firmware is great. For everyone that is a member of the forum, firmware is great. For the regular old consumer that buys stuff that they just want to work, it seriously sucks.
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post #15 of 36
10/15/07 at 5:39am
In terms of the PS3, the firmware updates have helped alot! Features have been added that were not there at release, such as DVD upconversion.

I think as a norm, most firmware updates usually just fix bugs, or give some improvements.

PS3 is the exception!
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post #16 of 36
10/15/07 at 8:28am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Ballentine View Post

I have to disagree. I was an early adopter (March 1997) and had no problems at all playing hundreds and hundreds of DVD's on my Sony 7000. The only huge bug-a-boo was lack of support for DTS (reason I eventually replaced it). The machine still works perfectly today - and has never glitched or had a single firmware upgrade.

My thoughts exactly...
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post #17 of 36
10/15/07 at 8:33am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmlevy View Post

firmware updates are one thing that will make more consumers bald in the future. I remember going to do an install for someone who had a Samsung BDP1000. I asked the wife how much she liked it. She said the picture was amazing. Offhandedly she remarked that one or two blu-ray's would not work that they had bought. I was able to pick one of them out. Sure enough it was the Descent. They had tried 3 different copies and finally the people at best buy gave them a full refund. I popped in my firmware disc that I had in my computer case. All of the sudden a blu-ray that never worked before worked. She was absolutely amazed. I explained to her how to get update discs sent to her. They would have given up on Blu-Ray all together once the new BD+ stuff really starts coming out. Because they would not have known how to fix the problem. That actually is the worst part of all of this. Certain players needing a firmware update to play BD+ could be a serious serious killer to Blu-Ray. The same could be said of certain HD-DVD's as well. I think King-Kong was one that needed new firmware to play. I wonder how many people that own a G1 could never get that one to work. Firmware is absolutely awful. Sorry, I happen to be a dedicated A/V guy so for me, firmware is great. For everyone that is a member of the forum, firmware is great. For the regular old consumer that buys stuff that they just want to work, it seriously sucks.

Exactly, blu-ray & hddvd their trying to reach the "regular old consumer". Neither format will be mainstream if the regular old consumer doesn't buy it. Kinda like SACD/DVD Audio
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post #18 of 36
10/15/07 at 8:36am
It's definitely a double-edged capability, and you can't have one side without the other ...

The ability to update firmware definitely leads to shipping software with known problems or potential problems that haven't been fully uncovered - because they can always be fixed later. Not that they necessarily will be, but any "recall" class problems will almost certainly be addressed.

The ability to fix software later allows consumer electronics designs to be more ambitious than ever before. We get a much wider range of features, and within limits, the manufacturer may even choose to add new capabilities over time to respond to market conditions.
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post #19 of 36
10/15/07 at 9:50am
Thread Starter 
Mainstream consumers want simple, simple, simple. Anytime you make something complex it will be embraced by the high end crowd first and everyone else will ignore it completely or until the prices go down. Let's not even talk about how you have to cross your fingers on whether a movie will be released on the player/format that you own.
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post #20 of 36
10/15/07 at 10:33am
its better to have firmware updates because it helps the consumer by letting them know that if something does not work because of a player issue that the firmware will help fix it. This is no difference from when your HDTV needs a firmware update to add features.
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post #21 of 36
10/15/07 at 11:29am
Thread Starter 
Does anybody want a product that works out the gate anymore?
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post #22 of 36
10/15/07 at 11:42am
I'm OK with firmware needed to fix things, but if we need firmware everytime there's a new BD+ encryption key, updating firmware will get old, really fast.
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post #23 of 36
10/15/07 at 5:27pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmlevy View Post

firmware updates are one thing that will make more consumers bald in the future. I remember going to do an install for someone who had a Samsung BDP1000. I asked the wife how much she liked it. She said the picture was amazing. Offhandedly she remarked that one or two blu-ray's would not work that they had bought. I was able to pick one of them out. Sure enough it was the Descent. They had tried 3 different copies and finally the people at best buy gave them a full refund. I popped in my firmware disc that I had in my computer case. All of the sudden a blu-ray that never worked before worked. She was absolutely amazed. I explained to her how to get update discs sent to her. They would have given up on Blu-Ray all together once the new BD+ stuff really starts coming out. Because they would not have known how to fix the problem. That actually is the worst part of all of this. Certain players needing a firmware update to play BD+ could be a serious serious killer to Blu-Ray. The same could be said of certain HD-DVD's as well. I think King-Kong was one that needed new firmware to play. I wonder how many people that own a G1 could never get that one to work. Firmware is absolutely awful. Sorry, I happen to be a dedicated A/V guy so for me, firmware is great. For everyone that is a member of the forum, firmware is great. For the regular old consumer that buys stuff that they just want to work, it seriously sucks.

Exactly and in much the same way that most PC users don't know about the plethora of Windows updates that are available each and every month. Firmware updates are not for the uneducated masses!
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post #24 of 36
10/15/07 at 11:55pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by WaldorfSalad View Post

Exactly and in much the same way that most PC users don't know about the plethora of Windows updates that are available each and every month. Firmware updates are not for the uneducated masses!

Thats why we have threads like this to educate the masses. There's a big difference between firmware updates to improve the performance of a player and firmware updates to fix a poorly built player. No one wants to pay money for something that doesn't work the first day you get it home! And then hope they release a FW update to fix it.
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post #25 of 36
10/16/07 at 6:22am
If a firmware update keeps my gear from becoming obsolete before I'm ready to replace it, then I'm all for it. Frankly, aside from the minor inconvenience of actually having to perform an update, I don't see why anyone would complain; this capability should be built into every major CE device sold. It is highly unrealistic to expect state of the art consumer electronics to perform flawlessly from day one...and I've been on this Forum long enough to know that there hasn't been a single major product released that did not work AT ALL on the first day you got it home. Granted, there's been several products that had issues that required firmware updates to resolve, but to imply that manufacturers have intentionally sold products that do little more than turn on once you got them home is most definitely exaggeration.
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post #26 of 36
10/16/07 at 7:41am
I dont think firmware is a problem. We are clearly seeing that our home entertainment systems are becoming networked devices. So while this sounds like some far flung evolution, it isnt...its happening now. Plenty of casual consumers have broadband connections and people have been connecting their networks to PCs and even video game consoles for years. The PS3 is a good example of how consumer level electonics are making this transition. The PS3 notifies you of an update and it almost happens automatically. So while firmware upgrades may still be abit of a pain with stand alone players, recievers, and televisions; once all these devices plug into our networks, firmware upgrades will merely be a matter of logging on.
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post #27 of 36
10/16/07 at 9:37am
true. The PS3 is convenient in that way. Most of the other Blu-Ray players lack network ports, though. Your average Joe is not going to burn a firmware ISO to a CD. Not gonna happen. I do like it on my XA2 though. I have to check for updates, but at least I can update it via the internet.
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post #28 of 36
10/16/07 at 9:44am
Quote:
Originally Posted by kemiza View Post

Thats why we have threads like this to educate the masses. There's a big difference between firmware updates to improve the performance of a player and firmware updates to fix a poorly built player. No one wants to pay money for something that doesn't work the first day you get it home! And then hope they release a FW update to fix it.

The masses don't read threads like this.
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post #29 of 36
10/16/07 at 11:55am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rudy1 View Post

If a firmware update keeps my gear from becoming obsolete before I'm ready to replace it, then I'm all for it. Frankly, aside from the minor inconvenience of actually having to perform an update, I don't see why anyone would complain; this capability should be built into every major CE device sold. It is highly unrealistic to expect state of the art consumer electronics to perform flawlessly from day one...and I've been on this Forum long enough to know that there hasn't been a single major product released that did not work AT ALL on the first day you got it home. Granted, there's been several products that had issues that required firmware updates to resolve, but to imply that manufacturers have intentionally sold products that do little more than turn on once you got them home is most definitely exaggeration.

+1!
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post #30 of 36
10/16/07 at 11:57am
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Ballentine View Post

I have to disagree. I was an early adopter (March 1997) and had no problems at all playing hundreds and hundreds of DVD's on my Sony 7000. The only huge bug-a-boo was lack of support for DTS (reason I eventually replaced it). The machine still works perfectly today - and has never glitched or had a single firmware upgrade.

Betcha the folks at Secrets of Home Theater would disagree with you concerning problems with early DVD players.
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