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Pioneer Elite DV-58AV - Page 3

post #61 of 1053
1/16/08 at 8:32am
Quote:
Originally Posted by KramerTC View Post

I've had the 59avi for a couple of years. No direct experience with the 79 you just bought but the consensus was (and still is) that the 79 was better than the 59 in analog audio output quality. The video? This is where it gets interesting...everybody that bought the 79 was gushing about this player and then Secrets (www.hometheaterhifi.com) did a review and found a flaw in the video processing. Bam! 180 degree turn-around in people's perception of this player. If you want to see what I'm talking about find the review at Secrets then go find the posts in the 79 owners thread around the time the review was published. Look at the before and after. Bunch of sheep!

There are no direct comparisons between the 58 and the 79 because the 58 is so new. But you can check the Denon 2930 owner's thread and get an idea of the capabilities of the DACs since that player uses the same chip for internal audio. There's a lot more that contributes to the quality of the sound output but at least you have a starting point over there for reference.


The Denon 2930ci use the 1791 chip which is the POC chip (in relative terms, http://www.usa.denon.com/ProductDetails/3262.asp), the 58 uses the 1796, second from the top (1792), the 79 uses the 1738 chip superceded by the 1796 which is superior, the 1738 is about 6 years old. The 79 should sell for less than the 58 on the street. Besides being heavier and having a slightly better output stage it is inferior to the 58 in every other way. The 79 does have iLink for digital output of DVD-Audio and SACD (DSD) to older iLink receivers (they are all going bye bye now). The 58 has HDMI 1.2 so it can output the same over HDMI to the new HDMI 1.3 receivers and controllers that support the formats (not all do, especially DSD).
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post #62 of 1053
1/16/08 at 8:46am
BTW the 1791 is the same chip the Pioneer Elite 94 receiver uses. Pioneer is a little behind its competitors on this stuff, Onkyo/Integra uses the 1796 in the 805/7.8 and up receivers and controllers. It isn't unusual for these manufacturers to introduce an audio DAC in a DVD player before releasing it in a receiver or controller.
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post #63 of 1053
1/16/08 at 10:14am
Quote:
Originally Posted by swestbom View Post

The Denon 2930ci use the 1791 chip which is the POC chip (in relative terms), the 58 uses the 1796, second from the top (1792), the 79 uses the 1738 chip superceded by the 1796 which is superior, the 1738 is about 6 years old. The 79 should sell for less than the 58 on the street. Besides being heavier and having a slightly better output stage it is inferior to the 58 in every other way. The 79 does have iLink for digital output of DVD-Audio and SACD (DSD) to older iLink receivers (they are all going bye bye now). The 58 has HDMI 1.2 so it can output the same over HDMI to the new HDMI 1.3 receivers and controllers that support the formats (not all do, especially DSD).

Is the DV-AV48 using the same chip (ie 1796)

Regards
Neil
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post #64 of 1053
1/16/08 at 11:48am
Quote:
Originally Posted by neild1 View Post

Is the DV-AV48 using the same chip (ie 1796)

Regards
Neil

Yes, but the rest of it is way below it, look up a few post for signal to noise specs for the 48 and 58
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post #65 of 1053
1/16/08 at 7:03pm
Any reports on B & M availability and street price?
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post #66 of 1053
1/17/08 at 6:59am
Quote:
Originally Posted by KramerTC View Post

Any reports on B & M availability and street price?

You are so advanced that I have no idea what you are talking about "B & M"? Gray market pricing is lower $400s. Authorized dealer, who knows, probably a bit more because of the 2 year warranty, I like going to custom installers without a store front for the best deals, sort of like a clandestine drug deal, they meet you somewhere, you pick up the goods and give them the money. Basically they have almost no overhead.
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post #67 of 1053
1/17/08 at 8:23am
Quote:
Originally Posted by swestbom View Post

Yes, but the rest of it is way below it, look up a few post for signal to noise specs for the 48 and 58

I was in the process of upgrading my DV48 to a DV58, after realizing the DAC is similar in both units I can't see how one could be superior to another one if connected by HDMI. Aren't we talking about 1 and 0's traveling through digital cables and subsequently decoded by a processor, I can't understand how a signal to noise spec affect the quality of the sound and video or quality of the unit.

Regards
Neil
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post #68 of 1053
1/17/08 at 8:56am
Quote:
Originally Posted by neild1 View Post

I was in the process of upgrading my DV48 to a DV58, after realizing the DAC is similar in both units I can't see how one could be superior to another one if connected by HDMI. Aren't we talking about 1 and 0's traveling through digital cables and subsequently decoded by a processor, I can't understand how a signal to noise spec affect the quality of the sound and video or quality of the unit.

Regards
Neil

I already commented on that back a page. For HDMI audio you are right, no difference (assuming no jitter issues, which is probably a safe bet given buffering and clocking in the player). The problem is the quality of the DAC circuitry in most receivers is way below that in the player, but they do give you all the DSP bells and whistles that raise the noise floor up to 10 db and decrease the dynamic range.

This player only makes sense from the audio standpoint over the 48 if you are going to use the analog outputs for SACD or DVD-Audio. It still might be worth it for the video scaling and de-interlacing if you plan on letting the DVD player do it (scaler/de-interlacing is better in the 58).
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post #69 of 1053
1/17/08 at 2:09pm
Who makes these numbers you are referring to such as 1796? Are these Faroudja chips or Pioneer chips? Also, is the consensus that the 58 is better than the 48 for video? Would either one of these player be better than the Pioneer 95 bluray player?
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post #70 of 1053
1/17/08 at 2:18pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by AndyGood View Post

Who makes these numbers you are referring to such as 1796? Are these Faroudja chips or Pioneer chips? Also, is the consensus that the 58 is better than the 48 for video? Would either one of these player be better than the Pioneer 95 bluray player?

Sorry, these are described on previous posts. No consumer electronics manufacturers do their own chips. These are Texas Instruments Burr-Brown audio DACs In order of goodness PCM-1792, PCM-1796, PCM-1791 (the Elite 94 receiver uses these). Check them out by googling them. In the obsolete chip category the last gen dv-79AVI uses the PCM-1738 which is between the 1791 and 1796 in quality.

The video dacs in the 58 spec out better than those on the 48. But if you let your receiver or TV do de-interlacing and scaling this is irrelevant.
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post #71 of 1053
1/17/08 at 4:41pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by swestbom View Post

You are so advanced that I have no idea what you are talking about "B & M"? Gray market pricing is lower $400s. Authorized dealer, who knows, probably a bit more because of the 2 year warranty, I like going to custom installers without a store front for the best deals, sort of like a clandestine drug deal, they meet you somewhere, you pick up the goods and give them the money. Basically they have almost no overhead.

Brick and Mortar. Tone it down some, will ya?
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post #72 of 1053
1/17/08 at 5:13pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by swestbom View Post

Sorry, these are described on previous posts. No consumer electronics manufacturers do their own chips. These are Texas Instruments Burr-Brown audio DACs In order of goodness PCM-1792, PCM-1796, PCM-1791 (the Elite 94 receiver uses these). Check them out by googling them. In the obsolete chip category the last gen dv-79AVI uses the PCM-1738 which is between the 1791 and 1796 in quality.

The video dacs in the 58 spec out better than those on the 48. But if you let your receiver or TV do de-interlacing and scaling this is irrelevant.

Thanks, video is what I am concerned with and I will have the player doing the scaling. If the specs you are referring to are 12/108 vs. 14/148 (or something like that), I am not convinced that this alone is a meaningful specification which will distinguish one from the other. Are there other specs video-wise that you see that causes you to say one should be better than the other?

Also, I have the Pioneer 95 bluray player and am looking for an SD player to compliment it, the 95 has "great specs" but is not a great player for SD, I am wondering on the SD side of things if these newer players will have different implementations of video specs and whether anyone has compelling information that would indicate that the 58 is better than the 95 or the 48 for that matter.
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post #73 of 1053
1/18/08 at 11:06am
Quote:
Originally Posted by AndyGood View Post

Thanks, video is what I am concerned with and I will have the player doing the scaling. If the specs you are referring to are 12/108 vs. 14/148 (or something like that), I am not convinced that this alone is a meaningful specification which will distinguish one from the other. Are there other specs video-wise that you see that causes you to say one should be better than the other?

Also, I have the Pioneer 95 bluray player and am looking for an SD player to compliment it, the 95 has "great specs" but is not a great player for SD, I am wondering on the SD side of things if these newer players will have different implementations of video specs and whether anyone has compelling information that would indicate that the 58 is better than the 95 or the 48 for that matter.

Why not the Oppo 981 it has received rave reviews for video if that is your primary concern. If you also want DSD over HDMI the 980 is good but the video isn't quite as good as the 981.
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post #74 of 1053
1/19/08 at 10:56am
Quote:
Originally Posted by swestbom View Post

Why not the Oppo 981 it has received rave reviews for video if that is your primary concern. If you also want DSD over HDMI the 980 is good but the video isn't quite as good as the 981.

I'd like to stick with Pioneer for the shallow aesthetic reasons, if I was going to go Oppo I'd probably get the new one coming out.

The lack of response pretty much confirms my opinion that nobody has any worthwhile information about the 58's video quality at this point. The best we got so far is the parroting of some meaningless specs and some assumptions, I guess we will have to wait for a first hand review.
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post #75 of 1053
1/19/08 at 4:00pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by AndyGood View Post

I'd like to stick with Pioneer for the shallow aesthetic reasons, if I was going to go Oppo I'd probably get the new one coming out.

The lack of response pretty much confirms my opinion that nobody has any worthwhile information about the 58's video quality at this point. The best we got so far is the parroting of some meaningless specs and some assumptions, I guess we will have to wait for a first hand review.

More speculation, they will again have video performance that is flawed in some way that shows up on the tests done by Secrets, they rarely get it right except for the 59. Another fact Oppo will probably outperform it in every measurable way on video for half the price.

The analog audio outputs historically give the best bang for the buck out there and will probably continue to.

Lastly, you and I will probably get it despite its measurably inferior video for esthetic reasons, a good user interface (good audio for me) and the fact that you will never be able to see the difference in video performance except in a test case, and the build quality will be better than the Oppo.
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post #76 of 1053
1/19/08 at 5:18pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by swestbom View Post

More speculation, they will again have video performance that is flawed in some way that shows up on the tests done by Secrets, they rarely get it right except for the 59. Another fact Oppo will probably outperform it in every measurable way on video for half the price.

The analog audio outputs historically give the best bang for the buck out there and will probably continue to.

Lastly, you and I will probably get it despite its measurably inferior video for esthetic reasons, a good user interface (good audio for me) and the fact that you will never be able to see the difference in video performance except in a test case, and the build quality will be better than the Oppo.

You hit the nail on the head, I couldn't have said it better.
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post #77 of 1053
1/19/08 at 5:41pm
But I do like the ability to skip those moronic copyright warnings and switch regions and watch PAL disks from Europe on the Oppo but not enough to make a difference.
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post #78 of 1053
1/22/08 at 6:51pm
Does this unit support 480i over HDMI like the other Pioneer's? Would make for a great transport for DVD, SACD, and DVD-A. Otherwise, looks like the Oppo is for me. I'm waiting on a 2.0 BD player from Pioneer.
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post #79 of 1053
1/23/08 at 7:36pm
http://www.service.pioneer-eur.com/p...odelnr=DV-LX50
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post #80 of 1053
1/26/08 at 10:52am
With all the current issues with the DVD-Audio and SA-CD playback of the Oppo 980H how is this player looking now?

I want to start by using the analog outputs and then move to bitstreaming when I update my pre-amp. Does this player have issues like sampling rate truncation and missing channels or channel level screw ups over HDMI?
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post #81 of 1053
1/28/08 at 8:11pm
Any review anywhere for this new model? I would like to see what the video portion can do!
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post #82 of 1053
1/29/08 at 4:16am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chett View Post

Any review anywhere for this new model? I would like to see what the video portion can do!

A close proxy if you ignore the stuff about PAL, which isn't in ours, and we use 110 not 220 volts and an extra output (RGB an analog red, green blue connector that is superior to RCA based component outputs but inferior to the digital HDMI connector). Other than that it really is pretty much the DV-58AV.

http://www.trustedreviews.com/home-c...-DVD-Player/p1

I did manage to get Pioneer to email me a pdf manual from the Canadian site (Thank you Pioneer of Canada). But there is still none on their site. The email address is: poccs@pioneer-usa.com
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post #83 of 1053
2/2/08 at 9:50am
Quote:
Originally Posted by swestbom View Post

http://www.service.pioneer-eur.com/p...odelnr=DV-LX50

Too bad that, according to the manual, the distance settings for speakers have no effect on SACD playback. In this day and age?
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post #84 of 1053
2/2/08 at 10:40am
Quote:
Originally Posted by allsop4now View Post

Too bad that, according to the manual, the distance settings for speakers have no effect on SACD playback. In this day and age?

If you find that then you are no longer using DSD. Stick to DVDs if you want that stuff, it kills SACDs. Distance requires DSP which requires PCM (no body has ever done that to DSD). Move the speakers or live with it otherwise you give up DSD's sonic advantages. The rear channels are usually just reflected sound anyway.
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post #85 of 1053
2/2/08 at 4:36pm
swestbom,

Have you had any luck with this player locally? None of the Elite dealers have it in my area and none plan to stock it. One told me too many models already in their inventory and they are having a hard time selling high-end std DVD players with Blu-Ray on the horizon.
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post #86 of 1053
2/2/08 at 6:35pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by swestbom View Post

If you find that then you are no longer using DSD. Stick to DVDs if you want that stuff, it kills SACDs. Distance requires DSP which requires PCM (no body has ever done that to DSD). Move the speakers or live with it otherwise you give up DSD's sonic advantages. The rear channels are usually just reflected sound anyway.

It kills SA-CD to have a calibrated multi-channel playback system? Yeah, sure
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post #87 of 1053
2/3/08 at 5:53am
Quote:
Originally Posted by allsop4now View Post

It kills SA-CD to have a calibrated multi-channel playback system? Yeah, sure


Yes indeedie, DSP and conversion to PCM does kill it. 10 dbs of signal to noise, PCM's brittleness in the upper end. No thanks.

Kill isn't quite the word, defeats the point of a high def format and gives you DD quality sound, yes.
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post #88 of 1053
2/3/08 at 5:56am
Quote:
Originally Posted by KramerTC View Post

swestbom,

Have you had any luck with this player locally? None of the Elite dealers have it in my area and none plan to stock it. One told me too many models already in their inventory and they are having a hard time selling high-end std DVD players with Blu-Ray on the horizon.

The chains don't carry it but the Pioneer site allows you to search for who carries specific models now.
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post #89 of 1053
2/3/08 at 7:16am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ric Schultz View Post

The Pioneer DV-58AV has some of the best audio out of its analog outs I have even heard in a stock player......quite something. No stock Denon (I have a 2930 here now), Oppo or other Pioneer (I have a Pioneer DV79AVI here now) is as good. Someone on Audio Asylum stated it had better video and audio then a Marantz 8400 (last generation $1500 universal with discrete analog output stage). I have been using it to watch videos on my Pioneer Plasma (4270) and the picture is good. I will be comparing it to my Oppo 980 on video sometime this week. I think the video on the Oppo will be at least as good, if not better (we shall see).......audio.....no comparison....the Pioneer is killer.

Hey Ric...how's does the DV-58AV's video compare with the Oppo 980?

Seriously, any more info on the video chipset in the DV-58AV?
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post #90 of 1053
2/3/08 at 8:49am
Quote:
Originally Posted by swestbom View Post

Yes indeedie, DSP and conversion to PCM does kill it. 10 dbs of signal to noise, PCM's brittleness in the upper end. No thanks.

Kill isn't quite the word, defeats the point of a high def format and gives you DD quality sound, yes.

"Kill", I think is far from it, really. Nor does any conversion automatically defeat the point (what point(s), btw?) of a high-resolution audio format.

Reviewers like Kal Rubinson seems quite satisfied with DSP processing of SACD over HDMI.
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