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bummed on SACD and my a/v reciever

post #1 of 23
10/18/07 at 9:57am
Thread Starter 
I bought the Onkyo TX-SR505 as a ht receiver, being that I am new to this arena. So far I am happy with it, it does well. Well I thought I would check into SACD, DTS, DVDa music. I found that most preferred the Oppo dvd as a universal dvd player. So I just purchased one earlier this week. I was looking online for SACD sales and here in the forum for recommendations then I ran across a thread saying that SACD requires HDMI to play. My reciever has HDMI, but it HDMI-Pass Through. I just realized, with research, what that means and now I am sad . I can't do it with this set up.

Well I do not have budget to get the next model up which is the 605 so I am wondering is there any alternative to get SACD signal to my current receiver?

I guess I will look into DTS music and DVD-A.
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post #2 of 23
10/18/07 at 10:19am
Unless I'm missing something, can't you use the multichannel analog connections between the player and the receiver?
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post #3 of 23
10/18/07 at 11:21am
Thread Starter 
What I have read is that only HDMI will carry SACD audio. I would LOVE to be wrong on that.

I do have inputs and outputs for 7.1 audio. Would I get the true SACD experience with that or would it be a downgrade washed out version?
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post #4 of 23
10/18/07 at 11:31am
That's flat wrong. I just bought a Denon DVD-1930ci and it will do DVD-A over HDMI but won't pass any SACD audio over HDMI. You have to use the 5.1 analog connection to get SACD audio in any way.
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post #5 of 23
10/18/07 at 11:32am
Quote:
Originally Posted by gregf70 View Post

What I have read is that only HDMI will carry SACD audio. I would LOVE to be wrong on that.

I do have inputs and outputs for 7.1 audio. Would I get the true SACD experience with that or would it be a downgrade washed out version?

It will work fine but you should use the speaker bass-management, distance, level settings in the player for SACD so that you can use the DIRECT setting on the AVR.
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post #6 of 23
10/18/07 at 11:33am
Greg,

Your Oppo player will output full resolution SACD and DVD-A from its multi-channel analogue outputs. Just connect those outputs to the respective inputs on your receiver.

One more thing you'll have to do, as Kal mentioned, is go into your Oppo's set-up menu and dial in the settings for bass management and time alignment for each channel. In fact, you can simply copy the channel delays and speaker size (Large/Small) settings from your receiver.

Sanjay
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post #7 of 23
10/18/07 at 11:34am
they must have been talking about the Playstation 3- it doesn't have multichannel analog outs, so for it HDMI is the only way.
Every other SACD player i've ever seen has multichannel analog outs, and SACD's will output over that just as well as over HDMI . . . . sometimes receiver's won't do bass management on the multichannel analog in, though . . . .
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post #8 of 23
10/18/07 at 11:34am
wow, we hit this one hard within 2 minutes!
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post #9 of 23
10/18/07 at 11:56am
Thread Starter 
Oh Thank you, that makes me happy now. I had just searched the forums for this information and I guess I did step into PS3 threads. I figured it was the same in all cases.

Thank you so much for correcting me on that.

Ima Happy man now!
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post #10 of 23
10/18/07 at 11:57am
Quote:
Originally Posted by elvisizer View Post

they must have been talking about the Playstation 3- it doesn't have multichannel analog outs, so for it HDMI is the only way.
Every other SACD player i've ever seen has multichannel analog outs, and SACD's will output over that just as well as over HDMI . . . . sometimes receiver's won't do bass management on the multichannel analog in, though . . . .

Some do.
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post #11 of 23
10/18/07 at 12:35pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by gixx1000 View Post

That's flat wrong. I just bought a Denon DVD-1930ci and it will do DVD-A over HDMI but won't pass any SACD audio over HDMI. You have to use the 5.1 analog connection to get SACD audio in any way.


Incorrect. SACD can pass as decoded PCM over HDMI 1.1, which the Oppo 970 and 980 support, or DSD over HDMI 1.2 which the Oppo 980 supports.
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post #12 of 23
10/18/07 at 1:05pm
Not incorrect. As I stated, my 1930ci can't pass any SACD audio over HDMI, DSD or PCM. So, I have to use analog ports. I didn't mean for it to sound like the Oppo can't do it.
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post #13 of 23
10/18/07 at 1:50pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by gixx1000 View Post

Not incorrect. As I stated, my 1930ci can't pass any SACD audio over HDMI, DSD or PCM. So, I have to use analog ports. I didn't mean for it to sound like the Oppo can't do it.


The OP stated he read that HDMI can carry SACD. You stated that is "flat out wrong". How is that supposed to be interpreted?

Denon wants you to use their proprietary DENON Link connection so they "break" the ability to use multichannel audio over HDMI. As a standard though, HDMI does support PCM and DSD.
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post #14 of 23
10/18/07 at 1:50pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by gixx1000 View Post

That's flat wrong. I just bought a Denon DVD-1930ci and it will do DVD-A over HDMI but won't pass any SACD audio over HDMI. You have to use the 5.1 analog connection to get SACD audio in any way.

Your Denon player has an early version of HDMI that will not handle SACD. Newer versions can.
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post #15 of 23
10/18/07 at 1:54pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by gixx1000 View Post

That's flat wrong. I just bought a Denon DVD-1930ci and it will do DVD-A over HDMI but won't pass any SACD audio over HDMI. You have to use the 5.1 analog connection to get SACD audio in any way.


The OPPO converts the SACD to mutichannel pcm for output over HDMI 1.1. With an HDMI 1.2 receiver you can send the DSD over the HDMI for decoding in the receiver assuming the receiver is capable of that.
i just set up an OPPO 980 last night. It seems to work well. It doesn't sound quite as good as my Denon 2200 did but that is becasue it is sending lower resolution pcm to my Denon since it has HDMI 1.1.
I just wanted to replace my last component that was using analog outputs. Now all my components use HDMI for audio and video.
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post #16 of 23
10/18/07 at 1:59pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by aaronwt View Post

i just set up an OPPO 980 last night. It seems to work well. It doesn't sound quite as good as my Denon 2200 did but that is becasue it is sending lower resolution pcm to my Denon since it has HDMI 1.1.

Why is it sending lower resolution PCM? You should be sending full-bandwidth PCM (or DSD) from the 980H.
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post #17 of 23
10/18/07 at 2:05pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

Why is it sending lower resolution PCM? You should be sending full-bandwidth PCM (or DSD) from the 980H.

It only showed up as 88khz pcm on my Denon not sure why I didn't have time to trouble shoot it since I was dealing with my VP50pro issues from my HDTiVOs and HD STB.
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post #18 of 23
10/18/07 at 2:15pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by littlesaint View Post

The OP stated he read that HDMI can carry SACD. You stated that is "flat out wrong". How is that supposed to be interpreted?

Denon wants you to use their proprietary DENON Link connection so they "break" the ability to use multichannel audio over HDMI. As a standard though, HDMI does support PCM and DSD.

Sorry if my post was worded poorly, but the OP's statement that I was calling flat wrong was this one:
Quote:


What I have read is that only HDMI will carry SACD audio.
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post #19 of 23
10/18/07 at 2:35pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by aaronwt View Post

It only showed up as 88khz pcm on my Denon not sure why

Because SACD has a sampling rate of 2.8224 MHz, which is 64 times the CD sampling rate of 44.1 kHz. When DSD is converted to PCM, it is usually in some multiple of 44.1 (e.g., your Denon outputs at 88.2, the PS3 outputs at 88.2 and 176.4).

Besides, I wouldn't call 88.2 kHz "lower resolution PCM". It's high enough to go beyond our human hearing but not so high (192 kHz) that you can't process the signal (bass management, time alignment, surround processing, room correction, etc).

Sanjay
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post #20 of 23
10/18/07 at 2:48pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

Because SACD has a sampling rate of 2.8224 MHz, which is 64 times the CD sampling rate of 44.1 kHz. When DSD is converted to PCM, it is usually in some multiple of 44.1 (e.g., your Denon outputs at 88.2, the PS3 outputs at 88.2 and 176.4).

Besides, I wouldn't call 88.2 kHz "lower resolution PCM". It's high enough to go beyond our human hearing but not so high (192 kHz) that you can't process the signal (bass management, time alignment, surround processing, room correction, etc).

Sanjay

Amen.
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post #21 of 23
10/18/07 at 5:30pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

Because SACD has a sampling rate of 2.8224 MHz, which is 64 times the CD sampling rate of 44.1 kHz. When DSD is converted to PCM, it is usually in some multiple of 44.1 (e.g., your Denon outputs at 88.2, the PS3 outputs at 88.2 and 176.4).

Besides, I wouldn't call 88.2 kHz "lower resolution PCM". It's high enough to go beyond our human hearing but not so high (192 kHz) that you can't process the signal (bass management, time alignment, surround processing, room correction, etc).

Sanjay

I can get 176.4 from my PS3 but the OPPO will only send 88.2Khz. And in the setup the LPCM out is grayed out at 48khz for some reason.
I can play the 96khz pcm track on the DVD-A discs I have but the high rez MLP tracks only show up as 48khz and I have no way to increase this in the setup menu. Why is it grayed out? Does anyone know.
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post #22 of 23
10/19/07 at 9:45am
Quote:
Originally Posted by aaronwt View Post

I can get 176.4 from my PS3 but the OPPO will only send 88.2Khz. And in the setup the LPCM out is grayed out at 48khz for some reason.

Use the 88.2kHz setting on your PS3. Outputting at 176.4kHz won't give you any audible improvement, but will prevent you from using basic functions like bass management.

Is the LPCM at 48kHz grayed out for SACD sourcesor for all sources? The former is understandable; the latter would be strange, considering how much consumer media is sampled at 48kHz.

Sanjay
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post #23 of 23
11/1/07 at 3:55pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by aaronwt View Post

I can get 176.4 from my PS3 but the OPPO will only send 88.2Khz. And in the setup the LPCM out is grayed out at 48khz for some reason.
I can play the 96khz pcm track on the DVD-A discs I have but the high rez MLP tracks only show up as 48khz and I have no way to increase this in the setup menu. Why is it grayed out? Does anyone know.

My first post!

Oppo manual says that some of the menu items are context sensitive .i.e. some items may be grayed out because of other related settings being turned off. I wasn't able to figure out what setting is causing LPCM to be grayed out. But I did figure out how to "un-gray" it. I just set everything back to factory defaults. LPCM will not be grayed out in the factory default setting. Maybe you can try changing the setting this way.
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