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Convince Me To NOT Give Up On HTPC

post #1 of 14
10/21/07 at 8:31am
Thread Starter 
Well, here I am two years after building my HTPC. I originally spent just over $2,000 to put it together based on these specs:

ASUS A8N-SLI Premium motherboard
AMD Athlon 64 3500+ CPU
XFX GeForce 7800GT Video Card
Hauppauge PVR-500 dual tuner card
X-Mystique soundcard
(2) 250 GB HDDs
1GB RAM

I've since upgraded to:
GigabyteGA-965P-DS3 Motherboard
Intel Core 2 Duo E6400 CPU
Added Hauppauge HVR-1600 Digital/Analog Tuner
2 GB RAM
Built a separate media server with (4) 500GB drives in RAID 5 (1.5TB usable space) and the recycled components from the original HTPC parts.

I've gotta say, the experience hasn't been nearly as good as I think it should be. Having the ability to record 4 shows is fantastic, but other than that, I just don't know that it's been worth it. For all of the tweaking it takes, software instability...it's more trouble than it's worth. My TV source is cable, because who wants 4 converter boxes to tune channels from satellite? And the cable feed I have is analog as it is, so the quality is sub-par.

Why shouldn't I just ditch the HTPC and go with a dual tuner PVR box from Comcast, or Dish, or DirectTV? Or 2 for that matter; one in the home theater room and one in the living room. I'll still be able to record 4 shows, and I'll be able to record more HD than just the OTA channels. It would be nice if Hauppauge supported QAM with MCE, but they don't. I can always just run a digital cable from my file server to my receiver (Denon AVR-3802) to listen to music. What functionality do I lose? It may cost me a little more to lease the receivers and pay for the PVR service, but I've gotta believe it would be easier for my wife to use, and many less headaches for me.

I want to say the PQ is better for DVDs, but I can't say it's that much better to justify installing different software players and tweaking all through the night. Besides, with the HD-DVD & Blu Ray prices dropping, why not just buy a stand-alone player that will upconvert a standard DVD to 1080 anyway? Having all of my DVD's ripped to the file server is nice, but it takes MyMovies 5 minutes sometimes just to load to the main screen! And sometime, it doesn't even play the disc; instead I have to go back to the MCE main screen and manually launch it through "Play DVD".

So what are my options? Is it the front end (MCE 2005) that's driving me nuts? Will swithcing to something like SageTV be the solution? Their new extenders look pretty promising, and I'd like to be able to watch my recorded content anywhere in the house. But I don't know that I want to invest any more $$$ to something that, for me so far, has been more of a problem than a convenience. Do I give up altogether? I like computers, and gadgets, and tweaking to an extent. But when my wife's had a hard day, and all we want to do is relax and watch a video, it's hard to have the interface have to crash on us. Just adds fuel to the fire.

Sorry for the random rant. I WANT HTPC to be successful. Help me not give up!

Chris
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post #2 of 14
10/21/07 at 8:44am
Throw in the towel already. HTPCs are supposed to be fun. It doesn't sound like you are having fun. DirecTv's HD dual tuner DVR boxes are $200 each if you ask for a deal. Then use your HTPC for everything else like music, photos, games, archived video, Netlix streams, Blu Ray / HD DVD combo drive, etc, etc.
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post #3 of 14
10/21/07 at 9:29am
If the media companies keep adding more PC features to their DVRs, you'll have a HTPC by the HDTV and not even realize it

DirecTV's HR20 has ethernet/internet jack, and already can play Music and Videos from any other source on your home network. They are working on videos. If they add internet access and a wireless keyboard then there won't be any difference between the HTPC you were getting frustrated with and the DirecTV DVRS. If you are more interested in gaming on that big HDTV, the Xbox comes pretty close to being the HTPC with media sharing and also lets you play HD-DVDs.

So like it or not there will be a PC in most peoples home theaters or living rooms. The bleeding edgers are doing it literally with a PC. The rest of the world will have the PC sneak in as some other media device.
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post #4 of 14
10/21/07 at 9:35am
If your source is analog cable then you could simply go with a couple of standalone Tivos for your recording chores. Forget about the DVRs offered by your cableco because they're crap. DVD playback via a standalone player is definitely less expensive and easier. However, if you have any intentions of upgrading to HDTV then that's another matter entirely. If you're not thinking about then you should be. Once you make the switch you'll be kicking yourself for not taking the plunge sooner.

DVD playback on a HTPC using ffdshow will outclass any standalone DVD player, regardless of the cost. I tried it and now my $2100 flagship Marantz universal disc player is back in the box it came in. My HTPC has five ATSC USB tuners for receiving my HD locals via OTA antenna. I use BeyondTV4 with WinXP Pro for recording. I never considered using MCE because it had too many limitations for what I wanted my HTPC to do. I'm leary of any new OS introduced by Microsoft until they're released at least one or more service packs to fix the bugs their beta trials didn't reveal, which is why I won't be switching to Vista anytime soon. I also have an X-Box 360 HD-DVD drive and a Pioneer BD reader for ripping HD discs for playback using PowerDVD Ultra. The LG combo drive for a PC is out and can be had for less than $300.

I'm on Verizon FIOS so I use two S3 Tivos with cablecards for recording scrambled QAM content from the rest of the FIOS channels I subscribe to. I never saw the attraction or desire to record in-the-clear QAM channels since all of them on FIOS are analog anyway. I suspect most cable systems are similar in that respect. Most digital content, especially HD channels, are going to be encrypted so you need an alternate means to record and view them. You'd need to check to see if there's any QAM channels you can get without a set-top box. If there are then you should consider an ATSC tuner with QAM capability. Otherwise, there are less expensive choices available to do the job.

HTPCs do have a steep learning curve to get them the way you want. One of the biggest headaches is imposed by the video card manufacturers because they can't seem to design a decent set of drivers for their products that don't cause more problems than they solve.
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post #5 of 14
10/21/07 at 10:07am
I'm sort of in the same boat. For what I spent building a PVR (2 PVR150's and IR stuff) I could have had a D* HR20 DVR and be recording HD from D* instead of a SD feed of the HD channels from my H20. Granted there's more flexibility with a PVR but since D* added all the new HD channels I'm getting real itchy to get a HD DVR. I thought by now that someone would come out with either HDMI or component capture cards but how long can a guy wait?

I was with Dish Network for 8 years but switched to D* when then started providing HD locals for the Tampa area. OTA is not a real option as I can only get CBS from Tampa with my CM4228 and amp. Once in awhile I can pull in ABC but it's spotty. When I first signed up for D* the HR20 DVR was not available so I got an H20 which gave me my HD locals plus a SD D11 and hooked them up to BeyondTV. I'll still keep my HTPC but it will only be used for distributing music, playing DVD's and home automation. I've been using a PVR since I bought my first ATI All in Wonder card so it's hard to give up but
I WANT MY HD!
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post #6 of 14
10/21/07 at 10:15am
I have been doing the "media network" thing for many years .. probably first dabbled in it in the late 90s. I've had an HTPC in my living room for over 5 years.

I recently decided to ditch the PVR aspects of the HTPC and replace it with a Motorola dual tuner hd pvr box (I have no choice where I live here in Canada.. if I did I would probably have bought a TiVo).

I've tried Sage, Beyond TV, MediaPortal, MyHTPC aka Meedio and MCE 2005 and Vista MCE. None of them can overcome the hassles related to trying to make an HD PVR work within an HTPC. So the HTPC is now used for music, photos, DVD playback and network DVD playback (some in divx format and some in DVD ripped format).

I also bought a Harmony remote (the cheap XBox 360 one). That makes things a lot simpler and works much better than the ATI Remote Wonder / Girder / IR Blaster solution I was using.

Personally that's a good choice for me. While HTPC is a bit of a hobby for me, I just can't justify the time and hassles, nor can I justify that time and hassles resulting in a reduced visual and audio experience (mostly referring to hassles trying to make and HD PVR).

If you already have an HTPC you might consider that "hybrid" approach. With the "activity" based Harmony Remotes it makes "watch tv" and "watch dvd" single button presses. And you get the flexibility of an HTPC for things like DVD, network movie, BR and HD DVD playback which, as said elsewhere in this thread, can be set up to be far superior to other solutions.

For my HTPC I am currently experimenting with Vista (not on the living room machine, one my personal machine). I am looking at Vista because I think it will have the highest chance of a decent integrated HD / BR DVD playback solution (like the Arcsoft stuff discussed on these forums).

Having said that, I may ditch the HTPC all together and go with an XBox 360 (I'm a gamer as well) and then toss in a PS3 as the BR player. However neither offer good network DVD playback, so I'm kinda waiting on the Fall 2007 update to the XBox which is rumored to include XVid support (tho I am not holding my breath).

I'm kinda in the same conundrum as you.. and .. as you can tell... I still haven't quite figured out what I want to do.
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post #7 of 14
10/21/07 at 11:51am
Quote:
Originally Posted by savaytse66 View Post

Why shouldn't I just ditch the HTPC and go with a dual tuner PVR box from Comcast, or Dish, or DirectTV?

You should. Not only will your quality be dramatically better, it will be much cheaper and more convenient.
Quote:
Originally Posted by savaytse66 View Post

Besides, with the HD-DVD & Blu Ray prices dropping, why not just buy a stand-alone player that will upconvert a standard DVD to 1080 anyway?

Yep, that's what you should do. An HTPC is simply not worth it for HD playback.

The only reason I still have an HTPC system is that (1) it doubles as a regular system, and I want to save space, and (2) I do video editing work on it that necessitates the flexibility of a PC.

But for modern day HDTV reception and HD-DVD/Blu-ray playback, HTPCs are simply an expensive hassle with little or no advantage over standalone equipment.
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post #8 of 14
10/21/07 at 12:13pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by savaytse66 View Post

Why shouldn't I just ditch the HTPC and go with a dual tuner PVR box from Comcast, or Dish, or DirectTV? Or 2 for that matter; one in the home theater room and one in the living room. I'll still be able to record 4 shows, and I'll be able to record more HD than just the OTA channels.

I can't say why you shouldn't, all I can say is why I don't. Networking... That's the biggie. Sure you could record 4 shows at the same time with the above setup, but once you record them they're stuck on the box you recorded them on. What if you want to watch one of your recordings in the other location? SOL.

Oh, and with Dish Network and an R5000 modded box or two, you can record anything you subscribe to, HD or SD, no quality loss.

Quote:


It would be nice if Hauppauge supported QAM with MCE, but they don't.

MCE doesn't support QAM unless it's via an OCUR, there's very little Hauppauge can do about that.

Quote:


So what are my options? Is it the front end (MCE 2005) that's driving me nuts? Will swithcing to something like SageTV be the solution?

You can always try and find out.

Quote:


Their new extenders look pretty promising, and I'd like to be able to watch my recorded content anywhere in the house. But I don't know that I want to invest any more $$$ to something that, for me so far, has been more of a problem than a convenience. Do I give up altogether? I like computers, and gadgets, and tweaking to an extent. But when my wife's had a hard day, and all we want to do is relax and watch a video, it's hard to have the interface have to crash on us. Just adds fuel to the fire.

I don't know what to tell you. I don't tweak unless I want to. I run Sage and unless I'm monkeying with it, it's perfectly stable. It crashes less than my satellite box.
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post #9 of 14
10/21/07 at 4:25pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by eggman51 View Post

I've tried Sage, Beyond TV, MediaPortal, MyHTPC aka Meedio and MCE 2005 and Vista MCE. None of them can overcome the hassles related to trying to make an HD PVR work within an HTPC. So the HTPC is now used for music, photos, DVD playback and network DVD playback (some in divx format and some in DVD ripped format).

I'm not sure what hassles you've had to overcome but my HTPC has worked fine as a PVR for OTA HD recordings from day one. I haven't had any issues using BeyondTV for my HD PVR functions. It was a snap to install and setup was quick and easy. I will admit to having some playback problems with the "jaggies" but changing to a different playback codec cured that problem in short order. My setup is a bit more complex than most in that I have up to six ATSC tuners whereas most people only have one or two for PVR functions. Having a PVR for OTA HD recording is the primary reason I built my HTPC and it's been great for that purpose. I don't see any difference in the picture quality between my HTPC OTA HD local channel recordings and those made with my S3 Tivo via my FIOS network. If you've ever experienced FIOS you know how good the picture can be.

I'm a long time Tivo enthusiast so I'm pretty critical of any other type of PVR, and I've tried quite a few. Believe me, if I wasn't satisfied with the PVR functions that BeyondTV provided I'd drop it in a heartbeat and try something else. PVR software is a personal preference so I won't try to sell anyone on BTV being the best available. Truth is, I haven't tried any other PVR programs simply because BTV4 does what I want it to do and does it well. I set it up to record all new episodes of a show and let it do its thing. So far, it hasn't skipped a beat in the year or so that I've been using it.

Most of the growing pains I've encountered have had to do with HD disc playback and not PVR functionality. Obviously, not everyone has the same hardware and software configurations so each HTPC will have its own set of unique challenges when it comes to tweaking them for proper operation. HTPCs are for true hobbyists that don't mind taking the high road. If you're looking for a turnkey solution then stick with a commercially available DVR like a Tivo.
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post #10 of 14
10/21/07 at 5:31pm
I would say get satellite and add a couple more boxes and cards to your HTPC, maybe get an X-Meridian and spend time with all the mods in the XM thread.. Then get HD-DVD and BR and a good game that you'll play with an 8800 GTS for graphics. That should keep you busy for a while.

You can get media center to configure as many cards as you want.. There is a secret though. And you have to be somewhat confident with modding the registry.
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post #11 of 14
10/21/07 at 5:37pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by captain_video View Post

I'm not sure what hassles you've had to overcome but my HTPC has worked fine as a PVR for OTA HD recordings from day one.

Where I live I get 2 OTA HD channels versus about 30+ from the Cable Box (which I can't record from). I can start climbing on my roof and setting up antennas and such... I might pick up another 4 or 5 channels... but I'm not that enthusiastic and don't have that kind of time.

HD via CableCard is a bust, probably will be for a couple of years and I'm hostage to the support by my available service providers (not optimistic).

Additionally I'm not aware of any capture cards (SD or HD) that allow you to capture 5.1 audio. I put up with that for quite a while, but it always bugged me that watching Soprano's (or anything broadcast with 5.1 audio) at a mate's place was a better experience than at my own.

I've used BTV since their earliest versions. It's a good PVR, but falls pretty sadly short as a media center, so requires installation configuration and teaching the family a different application for other general media purposes.

Building a 1080p capable HD & BD HTPC, assuming you start from scratch, is a hefty investment of time and money. Not saying I'm ditching the HTPC concept all together, but imo the grief with HD recording, the lack of truly excellent hardware and software solutions for *all* of the HTPC solution and the cost tradeoffs have seen me ditch the PVR aspects for now and evaluating whether to keep one or not for other aspects such as photos, music and network video playback. I have over 1tb of films ripped and still several hundred DVDs in my collection to go, so the latter is very important to me.

ymmv.. just posting here because I've recently gone through the same thought process as the OP and landed on a decision to ditch the PVR and evaluate alternatives for other aspects of a media network intended for 1 foot and 10 foot interactions.

egg
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post #12 of 14
10/21/07 at 5:44pm
I too used to use my HTPC for everything...now it serves 3 purposes:

1. World of Warcraft on the big screen.
2. FLAC music file player (I have over 60GB of it).
3. MPEG2 HD file player (.ts, .wmv, .mkv, h264, etc.)
4. DVD upscaler using FFDShow

It's fan noise is loud in my HT room (even though it's in a cabinet 12' away from me with closed doors), so I only turn it on when I am doing one of the above things, and it's never on when I'm watching satellite HDTV.

I soon play on picking up a bluray and hddvd standalone or dual format player, and once I do I will use the HTPC even less.

But do I ever think it will completely go away? Not likely....mainly because I like to play World of Warcraft on my 106" FP screen too much
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post #13 of 14
10/21/07 at 6:46pm
I've only recently built my HTPC, and I hate to jinx myself, but everything has gone smooth as silk. I use it for everything except HD-DVD/Blu Ray playback (using Vista Media Center). I use an HDHomeRun to get clear QAM from TWC and get about 40 channels, including a couple of non-OTA HD stations. As I said, everything has gone very well. FWIW, here's my equipment:

Antec LifeStyle Solo ATX Quiet ATX Mini-Tower Case
AMD Athlon 64 X2 4800+ 2.5 GHz
Gigabyte GA-M57SLI-S4 Motherboard
ASUS EN8600GT SILENT/HDCP/256M Video Card
CORSAIR XMS 2GB RAM
Western Digital Caviar SATA 500GB x 2 Hard Drive
HDHomeRun
Vista Home Premium with Media Center
XBox 360 Wireless Receiver with 2 wireless controllers

All of it is pretty vanilla equipment, and I'm running all of it with a standard setup (no extra codecs, no 3rd party software except antivirus, games, etc.) To be honest, I was surprised everything worked the first time, esp. after reading all of the horror stories on this forum. As a novice, my guiding principle when planning and executing the build was KISS-- the less complicated, the fewer components, the more likely it would be to work (and it has so far). For instance, no special codecs means that all of my ripped DVDs are uncompressed VOBs straight off the disk with no reauthoring, transcoding, etc. Yes it eats more HD space but it WORKS with no extra effort on my part.

As far as choosing an HTPC over a Tivo, yes I spent more and it's slightly less useful for TV (no CableCard), but it is much more capable for other media, and I haven't paid for anything more than broadcast basic cable in 2 years and I'm not about to start now. Also, I certainly didn't like the idea of paying $15/month for the Tivo service.

I have found it to be a very flexible system and am slowly increasing the complexity by using add-ons like Webguide and the remote desktop hack. It's still working flawlessly, and I'm looking forward to things like Crysis (uber-game set to be released next month) to further improve the experience.

In short, my HTPC is exactly what I was looking for and I would never consider going back or trading it for a Tivo.

-R
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post #14 of 14
10/21/07 at 8:33pm
Fidelity wise, custom resolutions at custom refresh rates with digital bass management (is this ready yet?). The home built HTPC has never really been about convenience. It was about fidelity and all the features you want to put in. Now adays the fidelity has caught up and now it's only about the features you want. So it sounds like for you the jig is up. Ditch the HTPC and get components and spend the rest of your time enjoying your media.
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