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Sony VPL-VW60 Tweakers Thread - Page 8

post #211 of 1578
Quote:
Originally Posted by OmarF View Post

No. The Gain/Bias, Color/Hue controls in the main menu were more than adequate to get a fine picture. I'm not a pro calibrator and don't have any testing equipment, so other than doing the gamma tweak there's no point for me to use the service menu.

Very good point. When ever I make adjustments in the service menu I am using a $10,000 Sencore color analyzer. I would not even think about making adjustments in the service menu without one.
post #212 of 1578
When centering the projector square with the screen and for adjusting the convergence, should one use the test patterns that come with the VPL-W60 or use a test disk like AVIA or DVD essentials?

With some of the better DVD players you have the option for color correction at the source, is this recommended or should you leave the DVD player at default setting and adjust your image using the VPL-VW60 controls?

If you want to calibrate gray scale which mode does one have the digital iris in?
Will the gray scale stay constant as the auto-iris does its thing during movie play?
post #213 of 1578
Quote:
Originally Posted by reio-ta View Post

Where are the gain and bias controls in the main menu? Gain and bias aren't in the VPL-VW60 manual.

I think they are under the custom color temperature menus.
post #214 of 1578
I wonder if adjusting the gamma might improve the detail under Auto 2. Are you loosing detail in the shadows, midtones, or highlights?

Quote:
Originally Posted by OmarF View Post

Regarding:

1) Auto 2 with contrast 80% vs. Manual at 37% with contrast 99%...Manual is still the winner for me. Auto 2 is a bit darker but I loose detail, which is my preference. Of course I have weak eyes so it might just be me. Try both for yourself and let me know!

2) Panasonic 30k vs. Sony S2000ES....Panasonic all the way. It outstrips every player I've seen. In my eyes, Panasonic 30k and Toshiba A35 are the way to go. Can't miss.

Omar
post #215 of 1578
Quote:


What would be better is if I could come over to a nice HT setup of a person who already owns one,

We need to know where you live. I would do this.

scott
post #216 of 1578
ROAD TRIP!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Back in the Daze
post #217 of 1578
Count me in!
post #218 of 1578
I had the opportunity to calibrate one of these a few days ago. The final performance was exceptional. Here are the precalibration and post calibration results.

 

Initial Tristim.pdf 5.9296875k . file

 

Final Tristim.pdf 5.92578125k . file

 

Summary Report.pdf 29.6611328125k . file
post #219 of 1578
Quote:
Originally Posted by umr View Post

I had the opportunity to calibrate one of these a few days ago. The final performance was exceptional. Here are the precalibration and post calibration results.

Is the d65 calibrated 4,654:1 iris off at max throw?
What lumen output did you measure?
post #220 of 1578
Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonHoyaFan View Post

Is the d65 calibrated 4,654:1 iris off at max throw?
What lumen output did you measure?

The actual on/off contrast ratio was more like 7000:1. My main goal was not to review the unit, but to get it to perform optimally. The instrument that generated that report does not measure below about 1 lux so its minimum level was off. I do not know the other information exactly. I was not told the exact screen size or what type of screen it was. I would guess it was about a 110" and I believe I measured 140 lux at the screen which would be about 470 lumens. This was not at maximum throw for that unit.
post #221 of 1578
Quote:
Originally Posted by umr View Post

I had the opportunity to calibrate one of these a few days ago. The final performance was exceptional. Here are the precalibration and post calibration results.

Hi Jeff-

Thanks for the great report. This has to be encouraging. Everyone that I know that has had their units calibrated by you have been extremely satisfied, as should this fellow with the VW-60. Keep up the grea work !
post #222 of 1578
Quote:
Originally Posted by WOLVERNOLE View Post

Hi Jeff-

Thanks for the great report. This has to be encouraging. Everyone that I know that has had their units calibrated by you have been extremely satisfied, as should this fellow with the VW-60. Keep up the grea work !

I was stunned at the final results. This unit looked fabulous post calibration. This system included a Radiance XD which added greatly to improving gray scale tracking and overall color accuracy.
post #223 of 1578
Quote:
Originally Posted by umr View Post

The actual on/off contrast ratio was more like 7000:1. My main goal was not to review the unit, but to get it to perform optimally.

I have seen calibration # all over the place, so I am very interested in optimal numbers from an experienced, respected calibrator such as your self. Hopefully I can get you to come and work your magic on mine when it comes in.

I am still not clear which iris mode, off/on/auto, was used for the on/off measurement?
post #224 of 1578
Quote:
Originally Posted by umr View Post

I had the opportunity to calibrate one of these a few days ago. The final performance was exceptional. Here are the precalibration and post calibration results.

Jeff, thanks for the information. Any chance you have any before and after screen shots? Data is too technical.
post #225 of 1578
Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonHoyaFan View Post

I have seen calibration # all over the place, so I am very interested in optimal numbers from an experienced, respected calibrator such as your self. Hopefully I can get you to come and work your magic on mine when it comes in.

I am still not clear which iris mode, off/on/auto, was used for the on/off measurement?

Auto 1
post #226 of 1578
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mit07 View Post

Jeff, thanks for the information. Any chance you have any before and after screen shots? Data is too technical.

I can understand the difficulty here. The data does not show everything at play. I do not have screen shots and they are pretty worthless because your screen is not likely to be correct and the camera will struggle with the dynamic range. I can just tell you the results were some of the best I have seen. I saw zero artifacts from the display. The blacks were deep and color performance near black and in bright sceens was fabulous. Image contrast was also excellent. This unit paired with the Radiance XD when properly setup would satisfy most people.
post #227 of 1578
I am the owner of the VW-60 Jeff worked on and thought I would add my comments.

The VW-60 is a really good projector on its own. I had a VW-50 for a little over a year prior to the VW-60. The 60 is brighter and better converged with a much darker black level and a noticeably higher contrast ratio than the 50. It is definitely worth the upgrade from the 50 in my book. You do need to have grayscale done for you on these units to truly see what they are capable of.

About the time I switched to the VW-60, I bought a Lumagen Radiance. The primary gamut adjustment capability along with the 11 point parametric grayscale adjustments within the Radiance were used to futher adjust the picture. As you can see in posting #227, the color gamut adjustment made a big difference in the color accuracy of the primaries and secondaries. It is important to note that Jeff adjusted the wide color space within the VW-60. From Greg Rogers review of the VW-60, the narrow color space is close to accurate when showing SD or Rec 601 colors. Narrow is, however, undersaturated in all primaries when displaying Rec 709 or HD colors. Since the Radiance can only work on oversaturated primaries, it made the decision to work on the wide color space easy. I was very pleased that we got the results we did considering that the wide color space starts out a lot further off. We were left with a green primary that is somewhat oversaturated but not off in hue. The remaining primaries and secondaries ended up spot on.

Measurements are fine but I know I had some trepedation when we went to view real program material after doing the color gamut adjustments. Measurements can sometimes not tell the entire truth, but not this time. The improvement to color accuracy was stunning. Jeff's Photo Research PR-670 had nailied the colors right the first time.

Jeff used the parametric 11 point grayscale capability of the Radiance to further improve performance. VW-60s (and 50s) will track a very accurate grayscale once properly adjusted from around ten to twenty IRE up to 100 IRE. From around 10 to twenty IRE down, however, the picture starts becoming increasingly blue. Jeff set an IRE point of 5 and 10 within the Lumagen and looking at test patterns, visually adjusted the grayscale at those points to make them track accurately (instuments don't give reliable results that low). This had multiple benefits. I now see the same colors in the very darkest scenes as the very brightest scenes. There is color detail in low light scenes I had not observed before. Black detail and black level are enhanced as well.

I am really happy with the results. Jeff did a great job and his instuments in general and the Photo Research 670 in particular were vital in getting the results we did. Jeff can do a great job on anyones VW-60. If you can add a Radiance as well, the VW-60 can become phenomenal.
post #228 of 1578
Wow UMR, great work! The others (in various threads) who are saying the WV60 lacks in perfromance obviously have not spent time with one...
post #229 of 1578
Quote:
Originally Posted by joerod View Post

Wow UMR, great work! The others (in various threads) who are saying the WV60 lacks in perfromance obviously have not spent time with one...

Or seen it setup optimally.
post #230 of 1578
Exactly. Good word. Optimally...
post #231 of 1578
Quote:
Originally Posted by mwiebelhaus View Post

...

I am really happy with the results. Jeff did a great job and his instuments in general and the Photo Research 670 in particular were vital in getting the results we did. Jeff can do a great job on anyones VW-60. If you can add a Radiance as well, the VW-60 can become phenomenal.

Thanks Mark. It is fun to see a product that can perform so well.
post #232 of 1578
Quote:
Originally Posted by mwiebelhaus View Post

I am the owner of the VW-60 Jeff worked on and thought I would add my comments.

Thanks for your report. I've added it to the front projection section of the owner's list of calibration reports that is linked at the bottom of my post.

Did UMR (Jeff) work on your audio?
post #233 of 1578
Jeff, were you able to find a "blue" mode on the VW60?
post #234 of 1578
Quote:
Originally Posted by A/Vspec View Post

Jeff, were you able to find a "blue" mode on the VW60?

What is that?
post #235 of 1578
reito-ta,

I cannot say at this point. This is the only VW60 I have worked on at this point. I also do not know what instrument you are using to know if your measurements mean much.

That red on Color 1 if real would not look good to me. That was about the value of red on the VW60 with normal color space and it was very orange.
post #236 of 1578
Quote:
Originally Posted by reio-ta View Post

Thanks. I don't know what he used. You'll have to ask zeroendless, he did the measurements. Zero's measurements seem to be very similar to csundbom's measurements and off with by the same amount pretty much with regards to red too, but he lacks x,y coordinate labels on his graph, so I can't be too sure. here:

Color1



Cinema2



These are the two posts:

Zero's

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...80&postcount=5

csundbom's

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...20&postcount=7

Those measurements appear to be made with low end instruments. I would not place much value in their absolute accuracy. What you are seeing when you change color space could be the result of many factors it is hard to say without measuring and looking at your specific unit what is really going on. Those results also appear to be radically different to me which is not surprising considering the sources.

It is really impossible for me to help you since I have not worked on that Panasonic unit.
post #237 of 1578
Quote:
Originally Posted by reio-ta View Post

Ah ok, I was just wondering. Right now I'm trying to decide between the VPL-VW60 and PT-AE2000u. Everything on the Black Pearl I love a lot more than the PT-AE2000u. What worries me about the Black Pearl is if the color is still crap in REC709 Wide mode, like the VPL-VW50 Pearl was. I found the Pearl to be horrid for flesh tones, even on a "calibrated" unit. Even on an ISF calibrated unit, sure it was better than not being calibrated, but the color still looked horrid. My uncalibrated Samsung CRT HDTV, color wise, looked leagues better compared to a calibrated Sony VW50 Pearl. The VW50 with greens and flesh tones looked orange to darkish brown/red! Not real one bit.

You have a PM because this is off topic.
post #238 of 1578
Quote:
Originally Posted by reio-ta View Post

What worries me about the Black Pearl is if the color is still crap in REC709 Wide mode, like the VPL-VW50 Pearl was. I found the Pearl to be horrid for flesh tones, even on a "calibrated" unit. Even on an ISF calibrated unit, sure it was better than not being calibrated, but the color still looked horrid. My uncalibrated Samsung CRT HDTV, color wise, looked leagues better compared to a calibrated Sony VW50 Pearl. The VW50 with greens and flesh tones looked orange to darkish brown/red! Not real one bit.


Interesting observation. On my "user calibrated" VW50 in normal color mode flesh tones look spot on. In wide color mode I simply go into RCP and drop red and green down 5 and 3 notches respectively. Flesh tones look great.

(Picture Mode User 1: Iris 2, High lamp, Contrast 90, Brightness 50, Color 50, Hue 50, Color temp middle, Sharpness 0, NR low/off, DDE film, Black level adjust off, Gamma 3.)
post #239 of 1578
Quote:
Originally Posted by umr View Post

What is that?

It makes adjusting color and tint real easy and spot on without having to use the poor color filter method. All of the Runco's I have calibrated have had it built in.

From Runco's Jim Burns:

"There are only a few projectors out there, especially fixed-pixel or even CRT, that have the proper color space. Without the proper primary colors you can't even adjust color and tint the way ISF teaches you because you hold a little blue filter in front of your face, and unless the blue coming out of your display is exactly the same as the color of blue in that filter, you're not correcting it, you're only making it different. That's something we do in the CL-510 and the CL-710. They have a blue mode. It's just like a broadcast monitor. That's why broadcast monitors have blue-only modes."
post #240 of 1578
Quote:
Originally Posted by A/Vspec View Post

It makes adjusting color and tint real easy and spot on without having to use the poor color filter method. All of the Runco's I have calibrated have had it built in.

From Runco's Jim Burns:

"There are only a few projectors out there, especially fixed-pixel or even CRT, that have the proper color space. Without the proper primary colors you can’t even adjust color and tint the way ISF teaches you because you hold a little blue filter in front of your face, and unless the blue coming out of your display is exactly the same as the color of blue in that filter, you’re not correcting it, you’re only making it different. That’s something we do in the CL-510 and the CL-710. They have a blue mode. It’s just like a broadcast monitor. That’s why broadcast monitors have blue-only modes."


You are talking about color isolation. As far as I know this display does not offer that feature, but I would not use it if it did. My Sencore generator will do that if I wanted to use that feature.

I use my PR-670 along with my GMB EyeOne Pro and my eyes to monitor all things related to color and luminance. This is much more accurate than the filter or the color isolation technique. The human eye is not very sensitive to level, but we are very sensitive to hue and saturation. All the color isolation will tell you is that the levels are balanced it says nothing about hue or saturation. The human eye is not very sensitive to luminance, but we are very sensitive to hue and saturation. Color isolation is therefore very limited because hue and saturation are more important than level being correct. You can for example have an image with very accurate levels, but poor colors and it will look bad. While an image with less accurate levels and good colors will look good. No display is absolutely perfect so it is important to distribute the errors in the most attractive manner.
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